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This episode and ship, though, feel like it was designed to, at best, appease and, at worst, shut up the queer fanbase. I mean in one breath A and E declare that love is love (yay!) but then have Mulan speak in gender neutral terms–and NOT for the first time this season! You don’t get to claim to celebrate diversity while denying the sexuality of one character multiple times over. It comes off as tone deaf and like you’re only concerned with the buzzworthyness of your show.
As you said elsewhere, the whole pronoun game with Mulan might not even be the writers’ fault, if it’s the result of executive meddling due to Mulan being a Disney princess. This would go beyond A&E’s control. Considering what they allowed Ruby and Dorothy to do and say in this episode, but not Mulan, does make me more suspicious that something fishy is afoot.
Fair point and yeah, I’ve said as much. But I’m not sure I can let A and E off the hook so easily. If Disney told them NO because OUAT Mulan *is* very much a Disney property, then, okay that’s sad (for tons of reasons) but it is outside their control. However, if faced with that dilemma, then I’d expect them, as professional writers, to figure out how to best tell the Red/Dorothy story so that it felt organic and natural and not just dropped on to the screen at the last second. And then we’re back to screen time, the number of plot lines, the number of characters; so how so you tell so many single side stories (Rumbelle, Zades, Snowing and Baby Neal, Henry the Author) alongside the arc-plot (Hades, Operation Firebird) and have a Very Special Episode?
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"The lesbians may not have died at the end but I still have to call out the writers for what this episode was: a badly written, badly planned out ‘romance’ with no soul
If it’s any consolation, (and it’s not really because it’s an example of how devoid the show is these days of properly developed relationships), Hercules and Meg knew each other for all of 5 minutes and barely even interacted before they were declared TL and she was allowed tp cross over to Olympus to be with him. And Hades and Zelena fell in TL after one bike ride. So at least it’s the straight couples as well that they’re just not putting the effort in with.
However, in tv shows, they tend to signpost a little more when a character is interested in both genders or people from both genders. Ruby being interested in Dorothy kind of came out of left field.
This is a reason why I was so reluctant to get on board with the speculation that Red would be in the LGBT relationship, because I figured it would just feel OOC for her, given how they’ve only portrayed her as being straight in the past, (first with the boyfriend she ate, and then with the obvious setup they were doing for Frankenwolf before they ditched Red’s character). I’ve got no issue with it if Red discovers that she’s something other than straight, but I had no confidence in the writers to portray her dealing with that discovery in a believable way. I think they at least attempted to do it, when they had Red sitting on a log and quietly freaking out, unsure of how to handle these newfound emotions, but it was a pretty half hearted attempt.
Had they had Mulan encourage Red by talking about how she understands what she’s going through, because it threw her off when she was attracted to Aurora as well, and she had to take some time to figure out what it meant and who she is, and how accepting yourself as you are and trusting in what you feel and who you feel it for is an empowering thing, even if it can be confusing at first. Then it might have felt a bit less like it was totally out of left field, (and it also would have given Mulan some actual purpose to be in this episode, and might have softened the blow of her having to stand by and watch this all happen while she’s still there alone).
Her conversation with Snow was probably another attempt at them trying to convey Red coming to terms with believing that it’s a real thing that she’s fallen in love with a woman. But again it felt like they fell short in portraying it.
As you said elsewhere, the whole pronoun game with Mulan might not even be the writers’ fault, if it’s the result of executive meddling due to Mulan being a Disney princess.
It probably is Disney’s fault. There are so many people out there with bigoted, ignorant, hateful views who don’t accept that LGBT people are just normal people who deserve to be able to live and love happily like all the straight folks, that they surely knew that this episode would be divisive, and cause some people to get all riled up, because the lesbians are oh so evil. Can’t have such negative attention and controversy associated with one of their Disney Princesses.
I think they at least attempted to do it, when they had Red sitting on a log and quietly freaking out, unsure of how to handle these newfound emotions, but it was a pretty half hearted attempt
It was half-hearted because they didn’t want her sexuality to become an issue. They never once used the word gay or lesbian in this episode. They didn’t want to draw attention to any sort of sexuality, couching it as “love is love!” It’s encouraging but at the same time, these are real issues for a great many people—individuals who begin to explore their own feelings and are conflicted because of their past, their ethics, their friends or family….
This is a chance, then, to really dig deep and explore what acceptance means, not only person-to-person but also on a personal, inside level.
Can’t have such negative attention and controversy associated with one of their Disney Princesses.
And isn’t Mulan getting a live action film at some point?
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"If anyone is interested in a live reaction to this episode from an LGBT couple then Bri and Alex of OSOTM do a great one. I will state: they aren’t happy. So please, be prepared for some fairly negative reactions. But, I think it’s important to hear from people within the actual queer community.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I almost posted that link to Bri and Alex’s podcast in my last post! Haven’t listened to it myself yet though. I enjoy their commentary because they’re not shy about calling the show out on its shortcomings, and I’m looking forward to hearing what they have to say about this episode in particular.
However, if faced with that dilemma, then I’d expect them, as professional writers, to figure out how to best tell the Red/Dorothy story so that it felt organic and natural and not just dropped on to the screen at the last second. And then we’re back to screen time, the number of plot lines, the number of characters; so how so you tell so many single side stories (Rumbelle, Zades, Snowing and Baby Neal, Henry the Author) alongside the arc-plot (Hades, Operation Firebird) and have a Very Special Episode?
If it was Disney budding in, then they would have budded in awhile ago. Which would have given the writers enough time to develop the new lgbt relationship, instead of just one episode. It sucks that Disney may have thwarted the writers’ plans for Mulan, but there is no excuse for the lack of development of the Ruby Slippers relationship.
If anyone is interested in a live reaction to this episode from an LGBT couple then Bri and Alex of OSOTM do a great one. I will state: they aren’t happy. So please, be prepared for some fairly negative reactions. But, I think it’s important to hear from people within the actual queer community.
I can imagine many people in the queer community are not happy about this. And you guys know, I will be first in line to defend the writers. I simply cannot defend them on this one.
I’m late to this discussion but..
Am I the only one who likes the relationship? It was random and from left field, but I think that was the point. It was a bit of a surprise/ twist. I think the writers knew the audience just had it all figured out that Mulan was this lesbian who was destined for love even though her sexuality was never confirmed. I would love it if it turned out Mulan was actually straight and had a crush on the Prince and not Aurora the whole time!
Why not Mulan?
At the end of the day we really don’t know why they decided to ignore Mulan again.
I’ve been reading a several theories and have some of my own:
*She’s a beloved Disney princess and is probably protected by Disney, while Dorothy and Red are minor and more universal. They were the safe choice.
*She’s a POC. Notice that NO POC has ever found true love on this show. The closest is probably Merlin and Nimuae, but look how that ended. One complaint I personally have with the show is how they treat POCs, not to mention LGBT. Despite being a Disney Princess, Mulan will never be on the same level or status as the main cast. She barely, if ever interacts with them. Ruby is less of a hero than Mulan, yet is consistently “in” with the main cast. Her falling in love and we the audience adoring it probably comes across as more attainable than using Mulan.
*Mulan and Ruby Slippers (my ship name) are tokens. The main cast are run of the mill attractive straight white people. Anyone else is there to make them look good. Period. That’s how American TV works. Dorothy and Red’s relationship is a token to appease and entice, much like some of the other minority characters in the show. In that sense, it doesn’t matter who falls in love with who, they serve their main purpose of representing a minority group, while staying out of the way of the others.
*Or it could be that Mulan’s purpose was to show unrequitted love. Her story line serves one purpose for explaining love, while Ruby and Dorothy serves another. Ruby and Dorothy have a reciprocal love, while Mulan represents a lonely passion. Making her finally fall in love would ruin that aspect of her character.
*Or it could be a casting decision. Perhaps Red and Dorothy had more chemistry. Maybe the actress playing Mulan could not commit to further episodes to do the ship justice.Also, I hope the Podcast does the story line justice and discusses it with grace and dignity. There is really no overlooking this one.
If it was Disney budding in, then they would have budded in awhile ago. Which would have given the writers enough time to develop the new lgbt relationship, instead of just one episode. It sucks that Disney may have thwarted the writers’ plans for Mulan, but there is no excuse for the lack of development of the Ruby Slippers relationship.
Yes, why was it okay in S2 and S3 but not now?
Am I the only one who likes the relationship?
It’s not that I dislike it. There were moments of greatness, but at the end of day, it was rushed and nothing will come of it. It was plopped down in the middle of our screen without any buildup. It’s….tokenism to an extent.
The main cast are run of the mill attractive straight white people. Anyone else is there to make them look good. Period. That’s how American TV works.
Malarkey. Even if it’s how it works, that doesn’t mean that is how it SHOULD work. And please…there are plenty of TV shows with non straight or non white people as leads or costars.
it doesn’t matter who falls in love with who, they serve their main purpose of representing a minority group, while staying out of the way of the others.
This is a pretty sad statement. Minority groups are subservient, then? Only designed to uphold the white people? Here? In the 21st century? Yeah, we’re totally living in a post racial society, guys.
You know what TV could try? Equal representation for everyone. That means that minorities aren’t cast as just supporting characters or just to be props or tokens. They could..I don’t know…run the entire show. Because maybe they make up a really good portion of our society? And maybe showing the rich diversity of America and the world might actually make for a better story? Cf: Sense8
Also, I hope the Podcast does the story line justice and discusses it with grace and dignity. There is really no overlooking this one.
We haven’t decided how we’re handling it yet. But all conversations here at the forums are open so long as they abide by our rules.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"We haven’t decided how we’re handling it yet. But all conversations here at the forums are open so long as they abide by our rules.
No offense, but why not handle it like you’d handle any other piece of material on the show? (This is purely a rhetorical question, btw, so feel free to ignore it). I mean this season pretty much takes place in hell so…
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