October 20, 2012 at 5:53 pm #135118
What if Baelfire is Jack and the Beanstalk and Peter Pan and the Wizard of Oz and the Mystery Man Neal Cassady…and…and…and???
I’m going to throw something out there that I think is a possibility…it may or may not prove true…but if it does it could make for an incredibly layered, complex and interesting story.
I think that it is very possible that Baelfire, who I believe to be the Mystery Man/Neal Cassady, who I believe to be Peter Pan…could also be the Wizard of Oz. as well as multiple other characters.
We do not know how many worlds Baelfire passed through before he ended up in New York City with the identity of Neal Cassady (assuming this is Baelfire). He could very well have passed through multiple worlds…thus having taken on multiple identities. We have a very long time period to work with that would be conducive to this. In one of my posts I mentioned some of the Wizard of Oz nods related to the Mystery Man…these may or may not lead to anything…they could be coincidence. But if they are accurate nods, I think they lead to the possibility of Baelfire going through multiple worlds…”following the bean” wherever it leads, from world to world to world. (did anyone else notice that strange wall hanging at the orphanage…it looked like multiple boxes of different size and shapes connected with lines)
Here is what we already know. This theory is assuming that the Mystery Man is Baelfire.
1. Beginning of Journey – identity is known – Baelfire
2. After going through the Green Portal
Possible hinted identity – Jack and the Beanstalk because of the Magic Bean
Possible hinted identity -There are nods to the Wizard of Oz in the opening segment of Broken featuring the Mystery Man/Neal Cassady (remember that in the movie the Wizard of Oz played multiple parts so this fits with the Baelfire multiple storybook character theory)
Possible hinted identity – he is the White Rabbit from Alice in Wonderland (there is a hot air balloon in the scene where Jackson is wanting to buy his daughter the white rabbit and Baelfire did go down a hole into another world. There are items in the MM/Neal Cassady’s apartment that also point to white rabbit)
Confident of this identity – Peter Pan (very obvious connections to Neal Cassady and the clue trail left in the apartment)
3. Real World identity – Present Day time period – assumed name know – real name unknown but everything points to Baelfire
Known – Neal Cassady (although we know this must be an assumed identity)
One of the clues in the Mystery Man scene leads to a place on the upper West Side of Central Park called The Radio Foundation – who produced Firesign Theater (remember the fire at the City Hall that houses the theater the one with the sign in front that they were putting flyers on). Firesign Theater (that ties in with the Beat Generation) was highly praised for their comedy albums…here is a quote from a review by Rolling Stone: http://www.benway.com/firesign/fst-reviews/wftelec.htm
The Firesign Theatre leans heavily on sound effects, using stereo to create a sense of space just like these old Sports Cars in Hi-Fi Stereo records, and using over dubbing and electronic effects to create a galaxy of character voices and background sounds. Layer upon layer of dialog and sound effects are present throughout most of the productions. One listen is hardly enough to begin to grasp what is going on, and six or seven tries later you’re still unearthing juicy tidbits. Their timing is dynamite, their dialog kaleidoscopic, and their satire is, so to speak, acidic.
I think this is going to be Baelfire’s story….layer upon layer, galaxy of character voices, Imagine the possibilities. I think we are going to go on an adventure with Baelfire that leads us to many places…ending in New York City where he learns the curse is broken and then his journey will hopefully take him to Emma and a little boy named Henry who needs a daddy as much as he needs his mom. The story of Peter Pan tells us there are many Never Lands…each is different for each child. I think that is what we are going to see…Baelfire and other “lost” boys/girls…we are going to see their worlds…hear their stories…I think it will be wonderfully entertaining and insightful.
The Mystery Man has taken an assumed name, Neal Cassady. The real Neal Cassady was the bus driver for a journey that has been called the Magic Trip. If the Mystery Man/Neal Cassady is Baelfire…what a description of Baelfire’s journey. He began in a world with magic, was pulled into a magical portal and then began his journey to a land without magic.
Could this wall hanging (on the orphanage wall behind Emma’s crib) be a map (whether real or symbolic) of Baelfire’s journey…from place to place…through time and space? I think maybe it is.
[attachment=0:1vqpvc3v]map of worlds.jpg[/attachment:1vqpvc3v]
Joined: September 20, 2012, 10:27 pm[adrotate group="5"]October 20, 2012 at 9:55 pm #157359
You really did some homework, fairy dust! Firesign Theatre was known as “The Grateful Dead of Comedy”…..so, that links up w/ all the Neal Cassady/Grateful Dead connections……the 3 songs: Ramble on Rose, Cassidy,The Other One – which is about the documentary “Magic Trip” where Neal drives the ‘Further’ bus and gets the nickname ‘Cowboy’. Which in turn connects the Peter Pan Bus Line, based in NY. And, all in all, connects to LOST’s fictious band (based on The Dead) Geronimo Jackson…sticker on Emma’s car….CD in Henry’s backpack in the finale……I love how K&H’s minds work!October 20, 2012 at 10:24 pm #157362
Thanks Gypsy! I just got on google maps and then street view to try to figure out where he exited Central Park (7th St) and then tried to figure out where he was on 47th St (47th and Madison). Then I went up to the west side of Central Park and just zoomed in on google map view and and scanned for interesting businesses…and The Radio Foundation caught my eye. With all the radios in his apartment I thought it might tie in.
I’m at somewhat of a disadvantage when it comes to seeing some of the obvious clues as I’m not a Dead Head and I didn’t watch Lost…so I just try to pay attention to as much as I can and see if I can fit it together.
Once the Radio foundation caught my eye I just started researching. Thanks so much for the info on the three songs and the Peter Pan Bus Line! And I agree with you about their minds…pretty amazing.October 20, 2012 at 10:57 pm #157364midnight drearyParticipant
VERY INTERESTING. 😮 I would love for there to a big story for Baelfire. I’m obsessed with all of OUAT’s mysteries, so to have one of them turn to be much bigger than previously expected would be awesome! 😀October 20, 2012 at 11:01 pm #157365tiara_roseParticipant
I have used google.maps too, beacuse i read your post and found
Alice’s Tea Cup
102 West 73rd St
New York, NY 10023
What do you think, fairy dust?
Heros don't get their Happy Ending!October 20, 2012 at 11:22 pm #157369
Fairy dust, I have a list of all the Grateful Dead connections in The GoldenKey’s original Peter Pan Theory post – which in it’s self, stands alone :)…..very interesting. And, again, if it wasn’t for discussing GoldenKeys theory with her since like Febreuay, I may not have found all this stuff. I mean, yeah, any Dead Head knows who Neal Cassady is, so, I got that, but, tying it all together with Peter Pan, I have to thank TheGoldenKey for that 😉October 20, 2012 at 11:26 pm #157371
Gypsy…your tip about the Peter Pan bus line reminded me that I had not gone back to the map since finding the connections between Neal Cassady and Peter Pan. I think I know why our Mystery Man/Neal Cassady ended up on 47th street. Maybe part of his out the way jaunt to 47th street had to do with a certain production that is currently at the Brooks Atkinson Theater….Peter and the Starcatcher.
….great find Tiara Rose
….and I totally agree Midnight Dreary
….and Gypsy…thanks for the Golden Key info. Can you post the link for me to her post. I’d like to read it.
My quest started backwards
From Mystery Man to Baelfire to The Radio Foundation to Neal Cassady to Peter Pan.October 20, 2012 at 11:58 pm #157372
Here’s TheGoldenKeys theory post…lol fairy dust, you posted in itOctober 21, 2012 at 1:24 am #157376
Fairy dust, I have a list of all the Grateful Dead connections in The GoldenKey’s original Peter Pan Theory post – which in it’s self, stands alone :)…..very interesting. And, again, if it wasn’t for discussing GoldenKeys theory with her since like Febreuay, I may not have found all this stuff. I mean, yeah, any Dead Head knows who Neal Cassady is, so, I got that, but, tying it all together with Peter Pan, I have to thank TheGoldenKey for that 😉
Here’s TheGoldenKeys theory post…lol fairy dust, you posted in it
I’m sorry about the confusion Gypsy…I was wanting the link for theGoldenKey’s Peter Pan Theory with the Grateful Dead connections. I didn’t see any Grateful Dead connections in the post you linked to. https://oncepodcast.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1462#p18390
Since I am not a Dead Head I can use all the help I can get when it comes to the Grateful Dead. 😀
I went ahead and did a site search for Grateful Dead and Dead Head. I thought it would be good to have all the info in one place as I am sure there are others out there as clueless as me. I wanted to make a list but I just don’t have time. So here are the posts with Grateful Dead information. I tried to put them in order, oldest posts first, so it would make sense.
Re: Doctor Whale is Doctor Frankenstein PROOF
by Gypsy » October 13, 2012, 11:29 pm
Actually, K&H have ALWAYS said it was about ‘stories’…from the begining. Just to add to the 3 paragraphs (including the 2×02 promo) worth of connections me and TheGoldenKey have looked into over the last 6wks, concerning the Whale/Dr Frankenstein theory….Adam and Eddie are self proclaimed ‘Dead Heads’…..the entire reason they inserted Geronimo Jackson (fictional band) into LOST ( switch the G in Geronimo and the J in Jackson= JG= Jerry Garcia). Emma had a Geronimo Jackson sticker on her VDub…and there was a Geronimo Jackson CD in Henry’s backpack when Emma dumped it during S1 finale while talking to Dr Whale- I am a Dead Head…have been for over 30 yrs. So, I should’ve made this connection earlier…anyway, one of my fave Dead songs is Ramble on Rose…..lines from that song: Just like Mary Shelley, Just like Frankenstein, clank your chains and count your change and try to walk the line…..another part: Just like NY City, Just like Jericho, pace the halls and climb the walls, and get out when they blow. The title – Ramble on Rose= Briar Rose (Sleeping Beauty)…Frankenstein= well, a nod to the Frankenstein theory…NY City= clue to the NYC Guy in the beginning.
Re: The Dr. Whale is Frankenstein Full Theory.
by Gypsy » October 14, 2012, 3:02 pm
Posted this in Dr Whale/Proof thread, but I’m adding it to TheGoldenKey and my theory above:
I am a Dead Head, and Kitsis and Horowitz are self proclaimed ‘Dead Heads’….it’s the whole reason the created the ficticious band Geronimo Jackson for LOST (switch the G in Geronimo and J in Jackson= JG= Jerry Garcia – this is a confirmed fact from LOST’s original run). Anyway, Emma has a Geonimo Jackson sticker on her VDub and in the S1 final, when Emma dumps Henry’s backpack, there’s a Geronimo Jackson CD among the contents. Considering the Grateful Dead influence surrounding Geronimo Jackson……there is a GD song, “Ramble on Rose”. Lines from that song:
Just like Mary Shelly, Just like Frankenstein, clank your chains and count your change, and try to walk the line.
Juat like NY City, Just like Jericho, pace the halls and climb the walls, and get out when they blow.
The Mary Shelley/Frankenstein connection is obvious.
The NY City….New Stranger…???
There’s also a Jericho in NY, and there’s a Peter Pan Diner there…which goes along with the other connections I found = Peter Pan Pastries and Peter Pan Bus Line, also in NY.
Maybe the Geronimo Jackson clue was more than just a LOST nod. Why else show the GJ CD while Emma is talking to Dr Whale, during a critical moment, just before she grabs Henry’s book and ‘believes’…….???
Others mentioned in the same song:
Mojo Hand-symbol resembles the red hand poster (Aesthetic Apparatus- Control and Capital) in NY City Guy’s apartment.
Billy Sunday- Character played by Deniro in the 2000 movie “Men of honor”
Deniro also played Frankenstein in a 1994 remake.
Crazy Otto- first name of Dr Frankenstein in a 1972 Italian version of Frankenstein ( Italian version- Little Italy connection). Also the name of a famous diner in NY- which goes with the Peter Pan Pastries and the Peter Pan Bus Line- also in NY. Name of a record label promoting ragtime music from the 20’s/30’s- old microphones in NY City Guy’s appt.
Wolfman Jack- From Brooklyn ( NY connection). Was a famous DJ (radio/ vintage microphones in NY City Guy’s appt)
Joined: September 13, 2012, 9:27 pm
Re: Neal Cassady?
by Gypsy » October 15, 2012, 9:01 pm
Neal Cassady also made a documentary “Magic Trip” w/ The Grateful Dead and the Dead song “Cassidy” is a memorial to him…yes it’s spelled different for a reason…anyway…this is another connection to The Dead(and ultimately Geronimo Jackson) that I was talking about in the ‘Dr Whale…Proof’ thread…I put this one here, as it is a spoiler, but, there are many Dead connections.
Re: I believe Bae is Peter Pan & Henry’s father.
by fairy dust » Yesterday, 7:32 pm
TheGoldenKey wrote: Good stuff Fairy Dust Yes, I thought about the bird as well as The Little White Bird was J.M. Barrie’s first book about Peter. Would love to hear about Neal & the Beats in reference to Peter Pan and the Lost Boys. I did immediately see the connection between Neal’s search for his “lost” father vs Rumple’s search for his “lost” son. I feel Bae isn’t searching, rather, he is running and does not want to be found by Rumple. Thus the postcard, warning him of the curse being broken and Rumple on the move.Not sure what you meant though about double checking, but hey, if I said something that helped, happy to have obliged
Here are some of the references I found: I’m pretty darn sure now that our Mystery Man/Neal Cassady IS Peter Pan
Back to the Miracle Factory: Rock Etc. 1990’s By Paul Williams
Layers of irony interweave the layers of music, and you are free to hear whatever you need to. For example, is there something in the way she says his voice that suggests that she – the narrator – is still a food for this Peter Pan/Neal Cassady rip-off artist?
The American Book of the Dead by Oliver Trager
The second verse, which materializes out of the plastic elastic instrumental, references both the Merry Pranksters’ magic bus and its hipster-shaman driver, “Cowboy NEAL” Cassady, who permanently takes the singer away through the looking glass. It is with these Peter Pan-like allusions that the son’g timeless mood is forever set.
The Complete Annotated Grateful Dead Lyrics annotations by David Dodd
Skippin through the lily fields I came across an empty space,
It trembled and exploded, left a bus stop in it’s place.
The bus came by and I got on, that’s when it all began,
There was cowboy Neal at the wheel of the bus to never ever land.
(The notes below, 7 and 8 are actual quotes from the book)
7 Neal – “ A reference to Neal Cassady………”
8 A more-or-less direct reference to Never-Never-Land from Sir James Matthew Barrie’s 1901 play, Peter Pan, or the Boy Who Wouldn’t Grow Up. Peter Pan, who says he ran away on the day he was born, and who never ages, takes visitors to Never-Never-Land (also called Neverland).
Promised Land: Thirteen Books that Changed America by Jay Parini
Exactaly what he thinks of Dean (Neal Cassady) we shall never know. But the fun has gone out of the game for him. The road no longer beckons with quite the same urgency. Perhaps Peter Pan has to grow up now?
Kansas City Public Library Classic Review: On the Road by Jack Kerouac – Book Reviews
Kerouac began work on the book in 1951; the novel tells the story of three years (1947-1950) in the life of Sal Paradise, the story’s narrator, and his sometimes stormy, but always interesting, relationship with Dean Moriarty(Neal Cassady), a rambling free spirit – something of a beat Peter Pan.
The novel is semi-autobiographical. Sal is a thinly veiled rendition of Kerouac himself, while Dean is based, a little more loosely, on Neal Cassady…. If Dean is somewhat like Peter Pan, then Sal is perhaps more like Wendy, enjoying the journey, but very much aware that the journey must end, and that each of us has some responsibilities to which we must tend.
Review of On the Road –
And Dean Moriarty (Neal Cassady) is an amazing character – spontaneous, charming, absolutely unhinged and absolutely resistant to responsibility, maturity and probably also good sense. Peter Pan for the age of drugs and casual sex.
From Movie review: Scene a lot of Films – On the Road
Garrett Hedlund’s performance as Dean provides the bedrock; his exuberance engages the audience just as Dean’s affects his fellow travellers. They are fascinated by his Peter Pan-like nature; however, the boy who will not grow up ultimately burns out instead.
From blogs –
Generation Y-er’s are considered a transient generation. Not subject to inscription, homeland wars, famine, or any great depression bar the financial meltdown of 2008, Generation Y has generally been regarded as freer and less responsible than generations before. Perhaps a path paved by the parents who came of age in the ’60s in the wake of Sal Paradise and Dean Moriarty, this generation has been raised by the ideology of freedom from responsibility. This position is inherently derogatory and it refrains from considering the social context of this Peter Pan-labeled generation, and the pressures placed upon it by an aging society.
It may be stupid, but Dean is sort of like a grown up, drugged out Peter Pan who just doesn’t want to act like he has grown up.
Last edited by fairy dust on October 19, 2012, 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: September 20, 2012, 10:27 pm
Re: I believe Bae is Peter Pan & Henry’s father.
by Gypsy » Yesterday, 8:03 pm
Those are some good finds, fairy dust The Grateful Dead song you referrenced is “That’s it for the Other One” or, more commonly referred to by us Dead Heads, “The Other One”. It’s about the documentary Neal made w/The Dead – “Magic Trip”… Neal drove the “Further” bus. There’s also another song, “Cassidy” (yes, it’s spelled different) that The dead wrote in honor of Neal’s memory after his death.
The significance of The Dead is evident in the “Geronimo Jackson” sticker on Emma’s car…and in the finale when Emma dumps Henry’s backpack, a GJ CD falls out, right before Emma grabs Henry’s book and ‘believes’. K&H created Geronimo Jackson for LOST simply because they are also Dead Heads and thought it would be fun to make up a band mimicking The Grateful Dead.
Re: The Mysterious Man….
by Gypsy » Today, 12:46 am
Oh, I know! I agree. TheGoldenKey is a friend of mine and we’ve discussed this at length for months. Her theory is a really good foundation for all this new info (his name – Neal Cassady) and it all really fits together perfectly There’s actually a third Grateful Dead song that connects alot of the clues in NY City guys apartment…same song also points to the Dr Whale/Dr Frankenstein theory. Almost every line in the song relates to these 2 theories…right down to the Storybrooke city limits that can’t be crossed. Can’t wait for the next coupla eps
Re: Will Baelfire end up being multiple storybook characters
by Gypsy » Today, 4:55 pm
You really did some homework, fairy dust! Firesign Theatre was known as “The Grateful Dead of Comedy”…..so, that links up w/ all the Neal Cassady/Grateful Dead connections……the 3 songs: Ramble on Rose, Cassidy,The Other One – which is about the documentary “Magic Trip” where Neal drives the ‘Further’ bus and gets the nickname ‘Cowboy’. Which in turn connects the Peter Pan Bus Line, based in NY. And, all in all, connects to LOST’s fictious band (based on The Dead) Geronimo Jackson…sticker on Emma’s car….CD in Henry’s backpack in the finale……I love how K&H’s minds work!
GypsyOctober 21, 2012 at 1:34 am #157378
My bad, fairy dust, the one about the Grateful Dead song “Ramble on Rose” w/ all the lines from the song was in TheGoldenKeys Dr Whale/Frankenstein topic…..I thought it was in the PP topic TheGoldenKey posted….goes to show, that the song references both TheGoldenKey’s PP theory and TheGoldenKey and my Dr Frankenstein theory. And, any Grateful Dead questions you might have, just ask…been a true Dead Head for over 30 years. You should put TheGoldenKey’s PP theory on here, too, everything in one place….
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