[Keb]

Exactly, RG. He was manipulated by Zoso, but he still chose to get the dagger and he still chose to use it. His choices are his own, even if they are made more understandable by the circumstances around them. Same with Regina’s choices. That’s what I’m saying. And I’m not sure that any of them is -more- a manipulator than the next; I mean, we’ve seen Regina manipulate the heck out of Rumple with Belle. (It’s about the only way she’s ever managed it, but boy does it work well.)

I’m not sure I can get behind the Evil Blue Fairy wagon even if I’m skeptical about some of her claims, but there’s no reason to believe that Rumple couldn’t have chosen to go with Bae. And if he had that choice (and he HAD to have that choice or the whole series doesn’t make any sense anymore), then Blue Fairy’s “manipulation” kinda drifts into thin air.

I’m not sure we know enough about Pan yet to make the claim that he’s manipulating anyone except the Lost Ones, and maaaaaaaaaaaybe the Home Office.

So for several reasons I’m not sure this chain works. But I’m especially skeptical of the Rumple-Cora-Regina hierarchy, since while I think Rumple is the most skilled of the three, Cora’s manipulated him quite a bit, and Regina’s come out on top a few times with both as well.

[Keb]

Well…Regina was Rumple’s pawn and he certainly manipulated her, but he was also dead honest with her even when he did manipulate her, and he always offered her a choice.

–in The Doctor, which I find the grossest manipulation of Regina in both senses of the word, he tells her upfront that nobody can bring back the dead. He knows she will more readily accept the opposite, and uses that to his advantage, but he didn’t force her to accept Jefferson’s offer or even to come back to him when her hope was utterly crushed.
–in The Evil Queen, he points out right away that she did just slaughter an entire village, and the whole dressing up as a peasant is her idea. He warns her she won’t like what she hears. So when he does manipulate her to accept the title at the end, it’s only after she’s made some really evil choices and faced up to them.
–When he gets her to use magic to push Cora through the mirror, and then asks her why she doesn’t want to learn more magic, she tells him she’s worried she’ll become like her mother. He tells her that’s up to her, and I think this, too, is an honest statement. He doesn’t force her to become like Cora (and I think the thought would horrify him, as horrible as the other things he does to Regina are).
–When he manipulates her into casting the curse, telling her that she can’t harm the Charmings in THIS world, she still chooses revenge over exile in her castle. He gives her the way, but she makes that choice.
–Same with killing her father. She has the choice, she discusses it with her victim, and she decides that she wants to hurt Snow White more than she wants to be with the one person she still loves.

I think Rumple manipulates the heck out of Regina (and everyone else, even Belle), but he never once removes her agency. He even tells her the truth about stuff, save for the true purpose of the Curse and the fact he wants to see it broken eventually. This is quite unlike what Cora does to Regina, in fact–Cora offers her no choice but Cora’s way. And Rumple was more manipulated by Cora than the reverse, from what we’ve seen.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

And she was hanging out with Clark at the bar. It’s not unreasonable for Grumpy to know exactly what happened to his old friend.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

I hadn’t yet but…that definitely makes the decision easier. Wonderland’s going in my timeline.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Yeah, I’ve been trying to work out how much of Neal’s death he actually told Lacey. I mean, Belle’s smart–she might have gotten it from his face and his saying “it belongED to someone important” about Bae’s shawl–but it did seem as though he must have told her more, and Lacey just didn’t really care?

I think it’s a good thing Grumpy came by with the potion, because the whole getting Lacey to fall in real love with him was not going so well. Bloodlust, sure, but we know from Cora that wouldn’t be enough.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

So I have a few months to think about it, but I’m wondering whether I should combine Wonderland stuff in my timeline.

(I can pretty easily create multiple versions–I already have two running–so I can do one with and one without Wonderland…but I have a feeling it will be fascinating to see where the timelines intersect and how.)

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Well, Hook already has a history of hanging with Rumple’s friends/family. He is the one person on the show who actually had a relationship of any sort with all three of Rumple’s loves–took the guy’s wife, teamed up with Cora, and threatened Belle quite a lot. Even Bae barely met Cora and hasn’t technically met Belle yet.

And he tried to adopt Rumple’s son. And he’s teamed up with Regina quite a bit (and she’s got her own complex relationship with Rumple…).

So it makes perfect sense for him to swoop in on Rumple’s closest guy frenemy, doesn’t it? (Rumple’s been more honest and open to Charming than anyone besides Belle. Like, ever. Even if Charming goes back and forth on whether to trust/lock up Rumple. I think Emma’s the only other person who has seen him in such vulnerable moments or that he would go to for genuine help.)

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

I think Grumpy is the SB character outside of main cast that I’d miss most after Ruby, though Granny’s up there. We already know Ruby is going to be rare at this stage. Please don’t take all the sassy secondaries out of the picture?

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Also, Jade, there are hints that these stories echo back and forth and repeat themselves–after all, Aurora’s MOTHER was apparently the original sleeping beauty. Cinderella’s deal was pretty similar to the miller’s daughter’s, and those were 40 years apart. They’ve touched on this a few times in the series–like when August asks Emma where she thinks the stories come from–but they haven’t given us a definitive answer. We do know that the versions that happened in FTL/NL/TLWC are not exactly the traditional stories from the Land Without Magic (our world, or the version of our world that fits in this universe–I haven’t decided which). And the hatter told us that there are millions of worlds running parallel to one another. There are lots of ways the stories could have slipped around and gotten to us.

But IF time in the EF and TLWM runs the same (and we have little indication it doesn’t–in fact, Emma’s and Neal’s crossings to the EF, as well as Cora’s statement about how her protection bubble would work relative to the curse, suggest that yes, at least for these two worlds (but probably NOT for NL), time is the same.

And that means that yes, the events leading up to the curse did happen in the early 80s and late 70s, in this world. That doesn’t mean that the stories couldn’t have gotten out in some form in the past.

Besides, this is a story itself. It doesn’t have to match up perfectly to our reality.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

I don’t know that they’ll kill people off just to accommodate scheduling, but I wouldn’t be in the least bit shocked to see Greg and Tamara killed as soon as they deliver their bounty. After all, this is an evil Rumple thinks everyone should fear, and that Hook demonstrated considerable dread about facing as well–both in the past and present. The only way Greg and Tamara will survive delivery is if they are immediately sent to face the Jolly Roger and stop the Charmingstlitskinmills family from getting to Henry…and there are enough people on that boat happy to see THEM dead that it’s not likely to go well for them (though they’ve got a better chance with that motley crew of heroes and villains than with their own boss, I wager).

Oooh oooh ooh. Wonder if Belle will have Victor help her figure out what all that stuff they left behind was.

Yes, I keep coming up with scenarios for SB and its remaining inhabitants to Not Be Forgotten. Honestly, I think they’ll swoop Belle and possibly Grumpy out of there asap if they’re really going to have her be part of the show, though.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

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