[Myril]

@KFChimera wrote:

I agree that Snow feels that she needs to resolve things with Regina, but I don’t think she has to convince Regina that Cora had to die or that Regina had to be the one to deliver the heart unknowingly. Snow has to convince herself that Cora’s death was not about vengeance but about protecting everyone.

Doubt Snow can ever do that, simply because I am doubting that she didn’t at least partially did it out of vengeance.

@Kpercyman wrote:

I think what Rumple said is probably the greatest answer. You have to tell yourself that it was the right thing at the time. Now like any person if she dwells on the past it can darken even the purest of hearts and will destroy her life. No matter what those around you say or do it is only up to you.

It is mostly up to Snow, I agree. But I think what Rumple said is bad advice. Talking yourself into thinking it was the right thing to do? That is exactly what a lot of people do to justify things regardless of what anyone else is saying, main point is to make yourself feel better, it’s very selfish. Yes, might be a way to live with yourself again, but as I see it is a good choice to go further down the road of evil. It changes your ethics, at worst seriously corrupts your own ethical standards.

Why do I say so? Think I wrote about it in some other topic, but do so here again. In my view no killing ever can be right. Seeing it that way gives a good and stable ethical ground to stay on, even though it doesn’t make things any easy. But I don’t have to argue and reason when a killing is right and when it’s wrong. Killing a human being is always the wrong thing to do.

But …. of course there is a but, things never are hat simple 😉 But as society, group we can and should consider circumstances, eventually refraining from punishing the killing of a human being under certain circumstances or even pass on prosecuting. That doesn’t make the act of killing ever right, but it considers reasons and circumstances for what the consequence of that wrong act should be. It’s a different approach, to some might look like nitpicking, but it has basic implications. It’s a difference if I discuss right or wrong of killing or if I discuss the right or wrong of what consequences it has for the person who killed. That goes for laws but as well for an ethical view.

So, what Snow did was wrong. Should she be prosecuted for it? Maybe, but we are talking Once Upon a Time and not The Good Wife here (although should look for a master or other thesis about how what is done in fairy tales would do if seen through the lens of jurisdiction; know of a thesis in German on fairy tales from the point of view of forensic medicin, but maybe there is more).

Should she feel bad about it and guilty? Yes, good thing she does, it does give hope that she stays on the good side.

Can Snow come back from murder? Depends on what one understands as come back from.

Sometimes we do wrong things with good reasons. Some people call that doing the right thing, I prefer to still call it doing the wrong thing, but as something that maybe couldn’t have been done any other way, not without more dire consequences: the necessary evil. That means doing something wrong, bad, evil but hoping that it will have more good than bad effects now and even more so in the long run. I think it is important though to accept and not talk away that what you choose to do in itself nevertheless was something wrong or bad to do, otherwise you question your ethics fundamentally, it shakes the ground you’re standing on and not just questions what you build on it.

That some people are questioning, what the difference is between the kills Snow eventually did before (Ogres are human like living beings not cattle) and now killing Cora very much shows that to me. If you declare one killing as something right to do you have to justify from then on as much why a killing is wrong.

There is no coming back from murder, not from killing a human, you can’t undo it. You can give back stolen property maybe, a person can have a good live after loosing a limp due to a fight, attack, but you can’t give back life.

That doesn’t mean that Snow from now on should suffer the rest of her life by guilt. Think she has a chance to come back, come back in the sense of still being a mostly good person making a lot of right choices and feeling that she is that good person. It’s not about talking this kill away, making it look better or more convinient, Snow has to accept in my opinion that she is as capable of doing wrong as others are, but see as well that she still can make right choices nevertheless, because of her compassion for others and a strong sense of fairness. She hasn’t lost those good sides, but it will be a little harder to not do the wrong thing at times from no on.

[Myril]

It might grow darker, depending on what Snow is going to do next, in the future. And depending on the people around her. Snow has far better support than Regina ever had, makes it less likely that she is going down that road of evil with ease. But doesn’t make it all impossible.

From a story telling point of view would find it rather intriguing to let her become darker (very much enjoyed what they did with Willow on Buffy), but I’m not sure if they would dare to do it with such an iconic character for a family show, that is something more for cable.

@RumplesGirl wrote:

I think one “bad” deed doesn’t ruin an entire life. I think Regina thinks it will grow darker because from her perspective, it happened that way for her. She did one bad deed after the other. BUT I also think Snow is so sad and depressed right now that she will think she is going bad, thus she will do things she wouldn’t normally do because it how she thinks she should be acting.
So we’ll see Snow acting out but I think true love will save her in the end. And hopefully it will teach Regina a lesson that you can’t have this blood feud any more and help her move on.

If it can ruin one’s life depends on how bad that one bad deed was. Or is seen.

Regina wasn’t raised by her mother to be a good and fair queen, she was raised to go for power no matter what cost. Snow on the other hand was raised to be a good and fair queen, that the power she is given has to be used for the good and welfare of her people. Now how we are raised doesn’t determine all what what we are and do later, but it has great influence. Regina and Snow were raised with a different set of ethics, and what is good and what bad is sometimes a matter of perspective.

I’ve noticed that a lot of people find it not so understandable why Snow is struggling with what she did, though it might be for Snow less about that she had a hand in killing Cora but more about how she did it. Don’t want to discuss here, if Cora deserved to die, that is not really interesting if wanting to understand where Snow it right now. Looking at where Snow was before, what her self-image and image others had of her was before. What image others have of Snow they let David tell: Snow has the purest heart of anyone ever known. Sure not the way Regina would describe her, nor how Snow sees herself, but I think Snow is aware of that image. And as I said before, she was raised to be good and fair. The contrast between the decision she made as teenager when her mother was dying to the decision she made now saving Rumple’s life by killing Cora can’t be any bigger.

I’m glad that they portrait it the way they do. It might have been the right choice, but it takes a toll to make such decisions, it should never come easy. That is what makes a difference between good and evil, one side cares, the other doesn’t, and different from Mr Gold I say, never try to talk yourself out of the dilemma such decisions brings, take it as it is.

While Snow might have not seen herself as pure of heart as David did see her, pretty sure she was seeing herself as someone doing the right thing, and mostly the good thing. She was at least always trying (exception when she was under the influence of Rumple’s potion). Killing someone with full intent is something she before never considered as the right thing to do (maybe in combat situation, but do have doubts she was at any ease doing so even in combat). She still doesn’t do, but for a moment she acted differently, and that plagues her now. She acted against a basic principle of her view on life. How will she ever again be able to tell herself and others that killing someone is the wrong thing to do, even if it sometimes might seem otherwise? She can’t, her own believe system is crumbling.

The dark spot on her heart doesn’t merely visualize that Snow did something bad, wrong (or the way she did it was wrong, again, not discussing here if Cora deserved to die), it stands for a loss, a loss of faith and of empathy. That’s how I see it.

That means by the way, that I do think, that in Once it should be possible that a heart heals, so to speak, it might not become totally pure again, but it should be possible, not easy though, to reverse the process.

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[Myril]

May I suggest to discuss it in another thread already started about the novel series?
ONCE novel series to be released
https://oncepodcast.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3394

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[Myril]

So merchandising machinery is taking up speed. Okay.

But as interesting as it might seem to tell the story from Emma’s (in Storybrooke) and Snow’s (in Fairy Tale Lands) point of view, as they say in the article, I would be more interested in a series of short stories of pivotal moments from the point of view of other characters, Dr. Hooper, Ruby, Charming just as example. Like telling the first days of Storybrooke from different angles, as experienced by different characters (they so missed a chance to come on the market with such a book with the episode “Welcome in Storybrooke). What they announce here sounds to me more like more or less a simple retelling of the story of season 1 for book selling, bit boring.

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[Myril]

@Phee wrote:

I’m inclined to think he’d have remained visible on the road and not seen the town again. He’s probably driven up and down that road multiple times over the years, hoping to find it. People can get into town if they know it’s there, but he’s a unique case because he wasn’t connected to FTL in any way, so he doesn’t have the gift of being able to see it from the outside, (until after the curse broke) the way Emma could when she was driving Henry back.

In science fiction it would be explained as “being out of phase”, it would take an injection of some sort of substance to sync with the phase Storybrooke is in or the barrier, portal does that change if you know how to activate it or someone activates it. 😉 Everyone from the Fairy Tale lands and other magical realms already have the marker to be able to cross the barrier or to get in phase with Storybrooke but not outsiders.

Owen / Greg does obviously remember that the town is there, so there seem to be no memory blocking spell at work. But Gregowen could be an exception, he and his father were inside the parameter when the curse was taking the land (liked the alien invasion style they did in the scene with Kurt and Owen in the woods).

I’d always questioned how SB functions in relation to supplies of food and stuff being replenished, because that would surely have to come from the outside. But having seen now how the town exists in a loop of sorts, I can buy that maybe stuff just never ran out and was magically reset to being fully stocked each day, eliminating the need for outside contact.

As long as the curse was intact it probably did provide the citizens of Storybrooke with everything. But the curse is now broken, so would expect some kind of effect. Not just the threat that now outsiders might come to town, but how does the town now supplies itself? Of course magic can be always used to explain things away, but that is in story telling sometimes a pain. If used too often as a convenient tool people stop to buy it eventually. And it is offers good breeding ground for plot holes.

Ah, these pesky little details, no wonder most fairy tales keep things vague.

If the people of Storybrooke now would need to find new ways to fill their fridge and get all the essentials of modern life it would put a lot more pressure on them to discuss, if and how they stay or if they go back. Let’s see how the heroes of Storybrooke would deal with some problems of common people and everyday life. (admittedly have a thing for shows which don’t take themselves all serious and play around with such things once in a while).

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[Myril]

Missing as answer the possibility to say neither (and when asking for one or the other should make clear in a poll, what no and what yes means, because I don’t know if yes = more sympathetic, no = less sympathetic, or if it is the other way around. Just a little tip for next time ;))

Sympathy in the sense of liking Cora more – no, not more sympathetic.
Sympathy in the sense of understanding better her inner motivations, where she came from, what formed her, being able to somewhat put myself into her position – yes, the episode gave some important background story.

I can even understand that Cora chose in the end power over love, and ripped her own heart out to go through with it. Practical thinking: Rumple couldn’t offer her appreciation and respect of people, if anything only their fear and fear induced obedience. As powerful as Rumple was as much people despised him. Going with Rumple would have meant to still be an outsider, not be respected only feared at best. I can see why to Cora her choice seemed the better one at that point. Frankly: how many decide alike, play the (seemingly) safe card instead of going with their romantic emotions, and is that so bad to think practical instead of idealistic?

Most certainly can understand that she was pissed about her father. We didn’t get to his story, but from what we saw he was a confirmed drunkard, neglecting his job and his family. For that Cora’s reaction was moderate, probably out of resignation.

As much I can understand her anger when she was humiliated at court. And I can understand her anger about feeling being born into the wrong family, being told to keep her place, to not aspire anything different. It is not about growing up in tough circumstances, it’s about being told, that you can’t change it even if you want it, that that is your place, so shut up and accept it.

Circumstances, socio-economic status, influence development of personality but even more so do the people around us, how they act and react.

No matter though how much I might understand where she came from, why she made some of the choices she did, be even sympathetic in some ways, it doesn’t mean that I find anything she did excusable. I can like even people and still say they did bad things and made wrong choices and should be prosecuted.

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[Myril]

The episode played out much as I expected, but in a good way.

The flashbacks to 1983, the first days of Storybrooke were interesting. So they lived in a groundhog day situation, the same day repeating for 28 years but with subtle changes every day (see the flowers Mary Margaret put on the night stand, Gepetto doing things slightly different every time, should have some fun to notice all differences). Made me wonder, how much the day changed over the period of 28 years. And at the very beginning there was as an unplanned variable in the mix two outsiders, a father and his son. In the end we get to see that Storybrooke didn’t exist for the outside world, what nevertheless didn’t answer some questions. Somehow all this made me think of entropy and laws of thermodynamics – and that was the point I had to remind myself that I’m watching a fantasy show here, fairy tales not even science fiction. 😆

Of course Regina was getting frustrated, because Storybrooke didn’t offer what she was and still is looking for (come on, it’s a show about true love and happy endings, right ;)). Said it herself: “It’s not real”. Yup. But despite sometimes seeing it she falls back on trying to get it with magic again and again. At least this time in present time she didn’t enact the curse she was planning to use to make Henry love her and destroyed the parchment. Maybe progress.

Anyone else wondering if Cora had that curse because she herself was pondering to use it on Regina, as last resource maybe?

Rant: After reading what Horowitz said on Twitter about allegations that Regina basically raped Graham, I already was somewhat taken aback of him talking it away and denying. Was ready to give the writers nevertheless benefit of doubt and wait what they will show in this episode. Now think even more that sadly they don’t get the point. Graham wasn’t acting on free will, he was under the curse. It doesn’t matter that Regina maybe didn’t use his heart to get him into her bed, it doesn’t change that Graham wasn’t acting on his own free will, he was unable to give consent – and that makes it basically rape. Just because he didn’t say loud and willingly no to her doesn’t make it a yes. He might even have enjoyed it as his cursed self, but still that doesn’t make it an act of consent. It’s like he was under constant influence of heavy drugs – and anyone saying that in this condition someone truly could give consent has a very warped kind of ethics in this matter (but knowing how many tell women not to get drunk or they shouldn’t be surprised what happens to them … sadly there might be way too many people thinking it). Guess, hope the writers would have agree with that someone under influence can’t be free to give consent, so it is sad that they don’t see the point if it comes to Regina and Graham. The problem is not, that they wrote Regina this way, doing such evil things, the problem is not to name it as what it is.

Greg is Owen – no surprise there. Instead of a father obsessively looking for his son (Rumple for Bae) with Greg / Owen we have a son obsessively looking for his father. Could make for an interesting comparison.

But what a bad camper Kurt was – hidding in a tent when a heavy thunderstorm is approaching is such a brilliant idea particular when havin a perfect faraday cage at hand in form of your own car. 😉

Henry has the one good, but impractical idea of the day: get rid of magic (he is his father’s son). Yes, we grown-ups all know it’s not that simple, well isn’t it? 😉 Wouldn’t call Henry the voice of reason though (because people can find good enough reasons to kill each other, they do), more the voice of hope and faith.

Interesting what Rumple answers to Mary Margret: “You tell yourself you did the right thing. And if you say it often enough, one day you might actually believe it.” Not sure if he believes, guess at times he does and in other moments he doesn’t.

Strong moment between Mary Margret and Regina. Nice twist, story telling wise that is. Making Mary Margret seek out Regina and ask her to be killed by her, to put an end to all this – I had hoped they would go there, but because Once is a family show wasn’t sure they would actually do it. So kudos for that. No surprise that Regina didn’t do it, realizing once more that she does want to keep Snow in misery and suffering to satisfy vengeance. That moment when Regina showed Mary Margaret the dark spot in her heart reminded me of an episode of Xena (didn’t really make all sense there either but it is a nice visual way to show that someone is losing their soul step by step and not all at once). Darkness eating into your heart, into your soul. Good visual. But more important: Great acting.

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[Myril]

@RumplesGirl wrote:

I like how this episode confirmed the use of magic — good or evil – depends on the persons’ emotions.

Makes me think that those who able to wield magic most effectively are those whose emotions are really close to the surface. Someone without strong emotions probably wouldn’t be able to use magic as well.

I am thinking best a it are those types with a sort of hot boiling emotional volcano beneath a seemingly tough and calm surface. Rumple and Cora have shown once in a while a bit of temper, especially Rumple did, but otherwise they seem like people bottling things up in some ways. Regina is emotionally less controlled on the outside but not that much outspoken about her emotions either. And Emma has bottled up much of her emotions for most her life as well, and still has her walls high up.

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[Myril]

Don’t want to destroy your joy, obisgirl, but no, Cora might have lost her heart to Rumple, metaphorically speaking, but she didn’t physically give him her heart. Right, she had the box with her heart with her, when she met Rumple in the forest, and there told him what she did, but she didn’t hand the box over to him. Unless I missed something somewhere else in the episode, Cora kept her heart in the box with her.
Or do you mean that via that candle Snow used Rumple kinda as Cora’s heart? Not physically either, he just got life energy but not her heart. 😕

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[Myril]

Don’t think the Blue Fairy lied to Bae or Rumple, it was simply the last magic bean they knew of at that time.

Being the original power, and with great powers, waning or not, doesn’t mean that the Blue Fairy is all knowing. Maybe she underestimated Rumple, his dedication to find such a curse, his determination to go through with. Maybe she should have sent spys to keep an eye on Rumple, but something tells me that is not the way the Blue Fairy works. Even if, guess Rumple did everything to keep his findings to himself working on the curse. Once he had the knowledge, knew how to do it and created the curse, it was in the world, just took him to find someone to cast it. And what should the Blue Fairy have done about that? Turning every possible candidate for casting the curse into a toad, or better (or worse) kill them?

Could she have stopped Rumple himself? Well, she told Bae she couldn’t change him back. Right, just what she said, don’t have to believe her, but I don’t have reason to assume something else so far. Should she have killed him, becoming the new Dark One? As far as we know as long as Rumple has all powers of the Dark One, meaning in the Fairy Tale lands it’s pretty much impossible to kill him, only with the dagger and that meant someone would have become the new Dark One. Possible there could be another way to get rid off the Dark One, but no one yet has found one, not that we know of. Still pondering the idea of destroying the dagger, but that might be no easy thing to do either, but who knows, maybe some tried that already but obviously without success.

I don’t see what the Blue Fairy could have done about the Dark Curse. But I am open for suggestions.

Considering that Regina was able to cast the curse and sent everyone into a haze and most into another world and another identity, wouldn’t say that evil can’t win fights. Emma spent most of her life without her parents, even knowing anything about her parents, lost years she can’t get back. Regina killed Snow’s father, Cora killed Snow’s mother and Johanna, the culture of the giants is very much destroyed (yes, count that as one of the evil doings). Good might defeat evil sometime in the end, but on the way there evil is able to win some fights. Right now someone like Snow feels it’s more the other way around, that evil always seems to defeat good.

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