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I think it’s a bit too new for them to do it but not sure. It is a very loose adaptation so they could still use the Snow Queen as something possibly but I doubt they would because it is so recent.
As for other things – they’ve put in lots of nods to various things to show us that those worlds all exist but it doesn’t mean they’d get the rights to actually use it. Pretty sure we won’t be able to see Narnia, but it’s awesome that we get nods like that to it.
[adrotate group="5"]Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
More info, per this article: http://entertainment.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981966498 (warning to any easily offended, I’m not sure WHY they went with that picture from goodness knows what to promote OUAT with for the actress so you’ve been warned not to be too shocked!)
Here’s the important part of it though (rest is basically the usual speculation):
According to E!Online, Rebecca Mader is going to play one of the “best female villains of all time” on Once Upon A Time
After that they go on to speculate a little about Medusa which makes it important elsewhere but for this particular thread, the fact that it’s supposed to be “one of the best female villains of all time” makes me more inclined than ever that it’s gotta be the Wicked Witch of the West. I’d be shocked at this point if it’s not.
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
I would agree with that except for the iconic villain with a theme song or villain with an iconic theme song, whatever it was, you know what I mean. Otherwise I would happily speculate that it’s one we haven’t seen much of but is beloved from the books! One of the things I love about OUAT is that not only does it let us revisit fairy tales and stories we grew up with, but part of the fun is finding where they got things and new things to enjoy. When I get some time (feels like forever away but I’m hoping) I really want to read some of these and see where they’re drawing inspiration from (not just from Oz but it’s making me curious about the books which is always a good thing!)
I think this is why many are leaning toward her being the Wicked Witch of the West though – the outfit and the theme music being a big part of it. I understand completely how Cruella technically fits that as well (Roger DOES write her a song!) but I don’t really see her as super menacing to the characters. I’d love to see the story brought in someday, maybe if Archie gets a love interest and said person is the owner of Perdita, but I really don’t see her story being a multi-arc thing unless they change up a lot of stuff.
As for the other options presented here, I’d certainly love to see them and if we are getting the Wicked Witch of the West and it’s a multi-arc thing, presumably for much of the 2nd half of the season, I really hope we get to explore a LOT of Oz (even though they’ve said a group won’t be travelling – we could still get flashbacks to explain other characters!). After all, they’ve been teasing it forever!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
Snow means well but it can be very frustrating as a huge Emma fan to see her NOT be able to read Emma as well as she could as MM. I agree that most of that annoyance stems from her being SO perceptive as MM and the fact that she still has those memories.
I think she’s trying but it’s a very skewed thing and awkward. Their circumstances are far from normal. They’ve all got a lot on their plates and she is STRUGGLING because she’s bogging her mind down with “This isn’t just my friend anymore. This is my daughter, I’ve failed her, she grew up feeling like an orphan, I missed EVERYTHING about her life and had a hand in screwing her up and I don’t know how to fix it.” I agree though that a lot of things have been said about NEEDING to fix it but that we’ve seen very little. It doesn’t help that the usually “infuriatingly optimistic” couple were so quick to give in to their “fate” and not fight to get out of there, even to be WITH EMMA whom they already lost out on everything with. But this isn’t new for Snow. As awesome as she is, there have been MANY times when she’s basically given in and she needs help from Charming to get back to that point of absolute faith. I can’t blame her for having her down moments.
That said, it is frustrating because in that scene where Emma is TRYING to tell her about the kiss with Hook. There was a moment with a smile and she asked if it meant anything but when Emma tried to tell her more about it, Snow began projecting her love story onto her daughter because she’s trying SO HARD to find common ground again. She’s in “must be her mom” mode and has forgotten everything she learned about Emma as her FRIEND. As MM, she never would have taken the “it was just a kiss” line without giving her a little grief. We’ve SEEN THAT and she used to be good at reading her. Emma doesn’t mention things she doesn’t think of as important, and she tried to mention it to Snow. When Snow brought up the hoping for Neal stuff, Emma whined “Why?” like a kid being told to eat something they hate. It wasn’t a “you caught me. I’m worried he’ll be upset” type thing and it wasn’t “You think? You really think he’ll be ok with it?” It was NOWHERE NEAR how she reacted to Hook having faith in her and her looking up in awe that he read her so well and she wasn’t REMOTELY hopeful that Snow was right AT ALL.
I love Snowing, they’re what I loved most about S1 FTL stuff in the first few episodes that made me love the show. I completely agree that with regards to doubting Emma, Charming is likely to be a bit iffy and need convincing, whereas Snow will try to downplay it all (like she did with Tamara) because she wants to be her happy mode cause they got home safely and she is focused on her husband and probably thinks Emma is just worrying about Henry but look at him he’s fine. Regina is of course going to buy into anything that makes her think Henry loves her / has no problems whatsoever with her because while he does love her, she usually loses him/disappoints him somehow. Which leaves Hook and Neal.
Neal almost always doubts her ability to tell when people are lying. He said he never believed in it when he could have said something like “I think you’re wrong this time” or “Don’t you think you’re letting your emotions get in the way and maybe just seeing what you want to see” instead of “I never believed in it to begin with” or whatever that quote was (I’m too mad to go look at it). Whereas Hook has always shown he has absolute trust in Emma. Even on the beanstalk, he laughed at how she kept the compass and didn’t try to take it from her and trusted her to NOT leave him behind which is why he was so gutted. He even BEGGED her to look into his eyes to see that he wasn’t lying – aka HE BELIEVED IN HER even then, and has ever since. This whole season has been about belief and supporting each other in the TL couples and he has been by her side believing in her every step of the way!
So I completely agree that from what we know *right now* it is at least possible/likely (they can show me different and change my mind and mildly impress me) that Neal also doubts Emma. He doesn’t know Henry as well and may be easily fooled by the act (totally understandable – Pan is manipulative). He’s relieved to have his kid home safe and sound, he’s on good terms with his dad finally, and now that Henry is home safe, it’s time to try for that 2nd chance with Emma. He may look on any doubts she has as her focusing on something that doesn’t need fixing instead and think she’s worrying over nothing and/or just trying to find a reason to not deal with her issues with him and move toward a potential 2nd chance. I’ll be very curious to see how he treats it though. He was wrong in not trusting her the last time, so does he fall back on his nasty habits or does he learn from them? If he is fooled by Pan, what’s his reasoning? Regina’s is obvious, she wants to believe that Henry loves and forgives her for everything and they’re on super good terms. Neal wants his family back and to be a good dad to make up for how awful his was to him etc. On top of that everything is super confusing in the Emma department and I imagine it would be frustrating to think “We got him back. We’re good now. Everybody’s happy. So can we have that talk now..?” and hear her (seemingly once again) deflecting with a “Something is wrong with Henry” problem that he might think is made up.
I am so in love with the idea that we might get some massive parallels! I know many have complained about the Snowing stories this season because the flashbacks haven’t been as awesome as they were in S1, and they seem “irrelevant” to some audiences. However, all the flashbacks in Lost Girl paralleled with CaptainSwan. Here we are, getting their honeymoon adventure, and it’s something that Snow is deadset on to defend her family – she was JUST threatened by Regina and wants to go do something wild and crazy about it, and Charming is there saying “you’re not gonna do this alone” – you know who’s gonna be pretty much “alone” in this episode, going off with a crazy theory that something isn’t right here and something needs to be done about it? Emma. And who believes in Emma more than anyone? Hook. They are SO like Snowing at times and I can’t wait to see more parallels in this “seemingly irrelevant” flashback. I mean really, they could have told us this stuff at any point in time, and clearly the Medusa thing doesn’t really fit more than likely cause Regina is still here so Snow’s scheme? Not gonna work. So why show this time period? Most will say filler. CSers will probably have a lot more parallels to draw on after this episode and I am beyond excited. I want someone to BELIEVE in Emma. This season is about BELIEF and absolute faith/trust in one’s love and Emma/Hook have been exemplifying those major themes ALL SEASON. Before this, we’ve had to rely on a lot of S2 reactions to things – like Neal’s non-belief in Emma’s ability which, as shown above, he could have worded in a much better way that was not so dismissive of her – but now we’ll see who actually believes in her and who doesn’t. I can’t IMAGINE Hook not stepping up! Like Charming in the sneak peak, he may not be entirely on board with the theory that everyone else is so dismissive of…but he’s willing to TRY and to HELP HER if it means so much to her. THAT is what Hook will do and I can’t imagine him doing otherwise. Can’t wait to see how this particular story plays out since they said they waited to do this story for a reason and what it would parallel to. I hope it shows both Hook trusting Emma, and obviously Emma is right and I want people – like Snow and Neal – to be proven wrong again and be ashamed of not having the faith in her that she suddenly seems to have in everything. It’s like she sucked all the infuriating optimism out of Snow suddenly or something, though, as I mentioned, Snow is more prone to *sometimes* give in to despair for a little bit before going and kicking its butt afterwards – usually prodded by Charming.
So I really hope we have some awesome parallels and I can’t wait to see the full story / what it fits in with. We have bits and pieces and ideas but I’m sure there’s tons we don’t know. Plus since they will be getting back to SB, we’ll have a lot of familiar faces to see, reunions to be had (looking forward to tons of those!) and we should have Ariel/Eric as well! Which means um…Snowing honeymoon, RumBelle reunion, Ariel/Eric, and CaptainSwan. Can’t wait! If the big focus is on the reunions (especially of TLs who are just now finding each other like Ariel/Eric or the reuniting RumBelle, and we get some CS stuff on top of a Snowing honeymoon I just…can you imagine?!? There’s tons that will be going on with the Pan!Henry drama and the Felix plotting etc etc I’m sure, but it does seem like a big episode for finding one’s family, reuniting with loves etc and I think it likely we’re going to see more and more of how well CS fits into that!
I’m seriously looking forward to so many reunions on top of all the parallels. Ariel finally finds Eric in SB (and they kiss/seem happy so yay), we get the Snowing wedding and honeymoon (+ kisses obviously even if it’s just a rehash from the pilot stuff), RumBelle reunion (+ kisses yay!), CS….would love a kiss but not sure we’ll get one this early. Though the fun begins once they’re back home, I want it to really start after Emma’s mind is put at ease about Henry and actually DOES save her son. Though I wouldn’t mind them wrapping up this little storyline and getting another kiss out of it, especially if he’s the only one who believes in her and she’s just so excited to save Henry somehow! 😉 (Seriously, please save Henry soon. I want the real one for all these bonding moments so I can love them more! Not sure if they can figure it out AND accomplish it all in one episode but I hope so!)
Other than that I’m looking forward to the Darling siblings being reunited, Wendy wearing Bae’s old robe (which Hook must have kept on the JR which means I hope we see a conversation about that with SOMEONE and again, he’s sentimental!), the DarlingFireFamily reunion (he’s back with the Darlings!!!), Neal finally meeting the REAL Belle, hugs all around including it looks like Grumpy & Emma! Then there’s the fact that it looks like Hook is up with the Charmings and Emma all smiling (with Grumpy side-eyeing him) and I just really want him welcomed back as a hero and for someone (Emma, Charming, SOMEONE) to stand up for him if anybody says anything because he did a TON to help all of them. I’m sorry but it bugs me when Snow acts like Rumple did everything for them. Rumple made it possible for them to come home to be with everyone else and deserves that praise if he follows through with it, absolutely and I will love him for it. But without Hook, Charming wouldn’t be ALIVE and we don’t know how they would have gotten Henry back without Hook’s help in the first place. He deserves some credit too and I want CS stuff and I want CaptainCharming stuff. I just really love the idea of Charming sticking up for his new buddy and saying how helpful he was. I also love the idea of Hook having to win over Grumpy just like Charming once had to!
I’m preparing myself for a TON of feels for just about every corner of this fandom (outside of all ships, but as far as the CHARACTERS and their relationships that may or may not be romantic). I’m already having a ton of feels for everyone…well, basically everyone minus Pan & Felix lol.
Is it tomorrow yet? Cause I really need this episode like now. I want answers, I want context, I want new stuff to analyze. Pronto.
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
Would Felix really count as a beloved character though? I got the impression that most are indifferent to him and we have no other versions of the story where we love the character. While Henry might be ok with doing something sweet like that, I can’t picture them taking a lot of time to hold an actual funeral for him in the church when we barely got graveside stuff for Archie who wasn’t even dead!
I think it likely (based on definition of beloved) that it’s someone that the audience usually loves and/or is Disney beloved. I have…no idea what that will entail at the moment though. My brain is fried trying to piece all this stuff together and come up with something that doesn’t somehow contradict something else!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
I think they got away with the references as implied because technically any shoes can be ruby and they weren’t specifying that it was those specific ones, and the Rufio comment – technically anyone could be named Rufio. We won’t be getting Rufio’s backstory though because he is specifically a character from the movie Hook which they love but can’t use. So I imagine the same is true of Neal’s line. It was clearly a nod to the movie, and he’s someone who might have some FTL knowledge / real world movie knowledge so it was fun while still on the border of what they can actually do.
I’ll be shocked if they get away with her wearing actual ruby slippers though. Absolutely shocked (though I suppose that nothing says she can’t happen to wear shoes but if they start going on and on about the ruby slippers I feel like they’re asking for trouble and I’d like to think they know which things they can and can’t use from Oz and the major differences between the book and the movie because that is THE big iconic difference (other than the part about it being a dream in the movie).
Unless it’s some weird Cruella/WWotW combo, I doubt it’s Cruella. I completely agree with the reasoning on all counts, but not sure how they’d make her a big multi-episode arc villain. It’s possible, but I think it’s the wicked witch, I really do. That outfit definitely looks like a modern day Mrs. Gulch for sure. I expect we’ll see Cruella eventually though, and her story will likely intersect with Archie since he owns Pongo. I wonder what happened to Roger but perhaps there’s a tie-in to him somewhere from Archie that we just don’t know about! I don’t expect it super soon though, even though I’m sure eventually they’d want to bring Cruella in. It is a classic after all.
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
The problem is that if it wasn’t in the book, they CAN’T pull from the 1939 movie. It’s an MGM thing, not Disney – hence the major problems unfortunately. Thankfully the characters we know and love from that movie exist in the books with (I think) the same gist of the storyline (minus the dream aspect, though I think Dorothy was supposed to be younger?), but unless they get the rights from MGM (which I doubt they’ll do since the books are public domain as well as the recent movie belonging to Disney, so I think we’re stuck with book stuff.
I agree with sticking closer to the Disney movies on most things. It’s definitely the safer option and it’s the version of the stories that we’re most familiar with and can identify with, especially with the more beloved of them. They changed Aurora and Cinderella is practically non-existant, but for the most part, they kept the more recent ones at least looking the same and with several good nods to the movies that we know and love because they’re Disney. Mulan isn’t technically right so I hesitate to say “close enough” because that would be offensive but she’s still Asian. Ariel & Belle maintained most of the stuff we would expect of them.
Sadly they really can’t use too much from the movie or from Wicked so they’ll have to work around that somehow. I definitely think that she’s in a more modern/younger Gulch-type outfit. Now if we only caught her riding a bike…
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
Agreed times a million RG. Some interviews, if I know the context of them, mean more to me than others, and it’s easy to jump on anything that sounds hopeful to your side, but this seemed very random with no context. (I didn’t know until you mentioned it that the only others with her at the time were MRJ and Lana which could have shaped that).
There have been tons of interviews where she’s been straight down the middle because the question is posed that way and others where it doesn’t even seem to warrant mentioning either and one or the other is mentioned and some that came out ages ago that I thought settled everything and even had context but here we are, still waiting for actual answers from the show.
The question could easily have been SF skewed (like most of the S2 official podcast) or it could have been in general. I’m far more interested in the answers that *shouldn’t* have anything to do with either and then one is randomly brought up as if it’s the first thing that comes to mind than I am by *imagine question here* *insert guy’s name out of nowhere that will fans to think something and possibly raise or dash hopes*
It’s getting old. Fast.
Both sides are welcome to interpret interviews however they wish and I trust the shipper threads to either rejoice or despair however they wish or toss it out the window because it’s probably ridiculous hype anyway. I’m just sick of “let’s give the fans tons of hope on BOTH sides and not expect people to be upset with us for leading them down that path” so I hate the idea of people holding onto it TOO much without there being any context whatsoever.
I actually wasn’t going to mention anything (even though I was raging seeing it in the first place because I knew it would be trouble and cause more pointless drama) but since it WAS mentioned in this thread, I hope nobody took it as “CSer just doesn’t want it to mean anything” because this is the only place we can ALL talk about this together. I think context is something worth mentioning regardless of who it’s about. Just because I’m a CSer doesn’t mean I want to rain on anyone’s parade. Everyone’s entitled to cheer when something they think is a good thing happens for their ship, be it a quote or a picture, with or without context. We won’t know til the show but it won’t stop anyone from getting excited and we ALL do it! So have fun! This is just neutral territory & both sides can have opinions on something. That’s what shipper threads/safe havens are for! I have a lot of SF friends. This is a good one for you since she singled out Neal. Enjoy it!
I’m just sick of the garbage attempts at “interviews” that just rile people up. Without context, it’s left open to interpretation and everybody can go off and do that however they wish. Until it was mentioned I was planning to ignore it, but I know some people DO take everything said in articles and seeing things be pointed out might make them think that it’s more and panic without any actual evidence of anything so thought it would be ok to present an opposite interpretation as well.
It makes me very sad that people that write these things think nothing of it and some actually get paid for it. Life is SO unfair and people are cruel. I wish we could just see video that had everything in it for everything and then we’d have context and hear tone and see what’s going on. *throws something*
*passes out cookies* I really hope I didn’t offend anyone even if it is neutral territory. I assure you none of it was personal against anybody who isn’t one of the writers of such annoying articles that give us nothing but more problems within the fandom!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
Some of it follows the books I think. Sadly I have not read them all (they’re on my “homework” list over the break), but I know having China Girl and her little town of fragile people/houses was a part of Oz that we didn’t get to see in The Wizard of Oz but that was part of the books. I think fans of the original movie would be rather shocked at some of the things that are in the books just cause they’re so different and sometimes a little odd.
I have a feeling that’s why the newer movie didn’t do all that great, because it wasn’t the Oz people were expecting but they couldn’t have it match the first entirely. I think it was alright, I enjoyed it for what it was and liked the nods back to the iconic things that they could use. We’re just more used to seeing the poppy fields and the Emerald City so it was interesting to see more of that and get some backstory on the Wizard and the witches, but I think there was a huge disconnect because of the differences.
That said, they *might* pull in a little bit from it and I expect them to try to pull some references from the books and hopefully it’s not the super obscure ones unless it has a good reason for it but as far as anything that happens with the characters we’re used to, it would have to be from the book versions. On the bright side, that means the characters still exist? I’m not sure how they were depicted in the books though. It’s a dicey/annoying situation because obviously they’d do better sticking closer to the movie (minus the dream part because in the books it wasn’t a dream, and obviously in OUAT I expect it to be a real thing as well), but we just don’t know.
Thanks for the pics Phee – I forgot all about Eva’s slippers!
As for the ring, I think Rumple’s is *supposedly* just a ring. A prop that he picked if I recall.
Jewelry from the recent movie – *SPOILERS FOR THE MOVIE* Evanora is seen wearing all green and she has a green amulet but she’s the witch from the East and is very powerful and turns her sister Theodora (who seems sweet and is seen wearing a lot of bright colors including red) into the green Wicked Witch of the West that we’re used to seeing. It was to match her pain on the inside and make the wizard feel bad about how much he hurt her.
So seeing the actress in Gulch-ish clothes but wearing a green amulet…I’m torn! I think it kinda has to be West because of the iconic music etc. Unless they somehow combine her or make it as something she held onto from her sister (I honestly can’t remember what happened to Evanora’s so who knows). She seems so…normal right now though. Can she change it at will? Has she fully become the wicked witch yet or is she in the process of doing so right now? I don’t think the pics we’ve seen can be from flashbacks (weren’t they at the SB town hall?) so I’m just not sure. I know Regina said something about using too much magic can turn your skin green though, I do remember that. So it probably works differently here anyway.
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
Honestly there’s no context for what she was actually asked so I’m sure there IS a reason she singled him out by name, but we don’t know what that reason might have been. We can guess and interpret however we wish, just throwing my 2 cents in because this issue bugs me every single time we get an “article” about anything with quotes.
(I”m getting massive horrible Colin quote flashbacks that were so far off base from what we ended up seeing and the interviewer was finally like “yeah I specifically asked if this was an option, it wasn’t something that he offered up”) so…take it however you wish but I highly question anything that doesn’t give context for what was asked and how, regardless of what information it brings.
No wonder this fandom freaks out over every article and then wonders why we didn’t get what we thought we were being promised! I blame the gazillions of articles that word things as sure things that aren’t even quotes, and the lack of context in all of it. I’m starting to hate reading these things more and more because of it, but I do in the hopes of getting some little nugget of something at least.
Sigh & *cookies* for all. Interpret however you like, just putting my 2 cents on the matter cause it doesn’t make much sense without the context. When did people stop actually putting their interview in there? Sometimes it’s bad enough when they weird their questions strangely but at least then we have that to try and make some sense out of the answer.
JMO in particular is pretty good about answering what is asked and keeping certain things close to the vest so in this case I feel like she was specifically asked about Neal which is why she answered that. It’s the times when a question has nothing to do with it and something is brought up instead that I think it means more, but again – we have no context here.
*Shakes fist at article writers that don’t bother with context* Why must they make life difficult and not give us the whole picture?!?
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
