[MysteryKat25]

After that #AskColin thing that I missed today but just caught up on…seriously, how can anyone not love this man?!? So adorable even in his answers. Hopefully I catch the next one but Colin is amazing! Hopefully he enjoyed doing this as much as he seemed to and will do it again in the future. *Fingers crossed*

[MysteryKat25]

So majorly bummed I missed the AskColin but was gone all day. 🙁

LOVED his responses! Hopefully I’ll manage to catch him next time but I definitely went on a favoriting spree on twitter just now!

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[MysteryKat25]

@RumplesGirl wrote:

First off, how about a round of applause for Kat and her magical mice for writing the longest post in the history of these forums?? 😆 😉

For this very reason I will be happy to take a break! Especially knowing when we come back we’ll have actual things to work on together rather than debating the pros and cons of ships. 🙂 *Writes quickly then runs & hides*

@RumplesGirl wrote:

I’m not 100% on the HookedQueen ship (Hookriel man…I blame Phee for this). I think it’s an interesting exploration because I think unlike Cora and The Dark One (which is what Rumple totally was when they met) both of them aren’t as wicked as those two. AND for what it’s worth, Rumple changed when he fell in love with Cora. He started to become the man we see more clearly when he’s with Belle. Who is to say that love wouldn’t have changed Cora? Who is to say that love wouldn’t change Regina and Hook if they experienced it together? I think there are facets to Regina and Hook (and Emma and Neal) and that they are all very much alike which is why there is no clear ship for these four, why we keep having the debate. If it were cut and dry like Snowing or Rumbelle there would be no need for this, now would there?

I blame Phee for the Hookriel idea as well! I love Hook and I love CaptainSwan and we haven’t seen Ariel yet but I’m open to the idea. I like your idea RG that they would change each other in a vastly different way. I can’t see it quite yet, but if they force it on me I want it to make sense and while I’m not there yet, nothing says they *can’t* just that my perception right now is that they would be toxic together. (Honestly doesn’t help that it’s usually just shoved toward anybody who wants Neal or Emma with anyone else). Agreed that it’s not cut & dried.

@RumplesGirl wrote:

This is all very true and I think you’ll find that most of the “rational” SF’ers totally see all the feelings–whatever they may be–between Hook and Emma. Actually, over on our thread, most of us agree that Hook and Emma will have some sort of romantic interlude and that it will most likely happen right toward the end of the first half of S3, after fighting PP and saving Henry. They recognize themselves in the other, there is no denying that. It’s just a question–in my opinion–of is that enough? My best friend and I, for example, are soul mates. We recognize that we are very much alike, that we have a lot of the same traits and that there is a great deal of love between us. But there is nothing romantic or sexual. I can see CS going that way, brief romance or not. I think part of Emma will always wonder if it would have worked out with Neal. I think part of her will always want to know if she could have gotten Tallahassee with him if they tried. And until that is fully explored, whatever happened or didn’t happen with CS is going to be on the back burner.

Thank goodness for rational SFers. I was starting to wonder if I was hanging out in the wrong places and was being to hate seeing any mention of the ship to be honest. (I’m feeling a little better though, promise). I’ve seen some people say they feel like CS has to happen but I’m so sick of being a drawn conclusion that it will basically be a stepping stone. Frankly…as much as I want CS, I don’t want it to be a rebound or a stepping stone, and I don’t want to watch them fall in love in real time (well, present day but you know what I mean – seeing every important interaction), only to watch Hook get strung along because it’s “inevitable” that Emma will go back to Neal. And on top of that, we’d then have to watch Hook in real time go through another relationship and basically start over. I hated the way that was handled on Lost and am just now coming to grips with the backup ship over there. I don’t want to hate it here too. =/

I get the reference you’re making though for sure. I think Emma & Hook have a very strong bond and while I certainly think it will be romantic, I can see why others don’t see it as a foundation for anything other than friendship.

I’ll agree that Emma needs to figure out whatever it is with Neal before she can fully move forward with anyone (including him frankly). If that means trying for awhile with boundaries or something then so be it, but if they want me to love them, I need her to really make an effort to not just sweep everything under the rug because he’s alive.

That definitely includes Hook taking a backseat for awhile and I think he may be the one to broach that and just let her know he’s there but not push her as I said earlier. With how many complicated relationships there are between these 3 without bringing romance into it, they all need to take a step back regardless. Emma may need to at least try with Neal. Whether that works or not I don’t know, but she may need to try and I think Hook would understand that (and I wouldn’t mind seeing a little Jealous!Hook), as long as it’s not taken too far and is considerate of the situation as a whole. (I don’t see them jumping 100% in right off the bat anyways as they also have Henry to consider and not wanting to get not only theirs but his hopes up). I also don’t think they’d do much more than try to have dates and actually talk and that may be enough to know one way or the other, who knows.

Either way it would make for good drama (various characters having their input and watching poor Hook in the background *sniff* He’ll make me want to hug him a million times I’m sure. But it definitely needs to happen before anything would be legit for her with anyone else (or Neal for that matter). I don’t think we’d have them spending SO much time together while Neal is away still that they would fall completely in love and not at least question it when he shows up. Could they develop feelings they don’t admit and are then exponentially confused when he shows back up? Sure. I pretty much expect that. I don’t think it’s anymore clear-cut for Emma than I think it is in the fandom.

@RumplesGirl wrote:

Without going into a lot of it, I recently rewatched PotC and saw a ton of SF parallels with Willabeth with Hook playing the role of Jack. We talk about parallels a lot in the fandom with out ships, it’s only natural. But looking for parallels is a little bit like cloud watching: you may see a man in a hat, and I may see a giraffe but at the end of the day that cloud is neither, it’s a cloud. The writers may draw distinct parallels that are intentional, but a lot of times I think the fans are looking for parallels and will find them even if they don’t exist at the hands of the authors.

One of the things I love about Hook is that he is a mixture of so many different characters in a lot of my favorite things. I know Colin himself said it was a little bit Dread Pirate Roberts (and I’ve been saying that from the beginning so that tweet made me so happy!) but I know some see him as one note / Inigo Montoya (I think at this point, he’s past that and has merged into being more of DPR instead). Same thing with PotC, originally I said a bit more like Jack and sometimes I see the young boy abandoned, grew up and became a pirate and eventually a captain who fell in love with an E. Swan(n) who he took tender care of with that perfect handwrap scene.

He’s definitely his own character as we don’t know anything of the Killian Jones version of Captain Hook (I’ve heard of James Hook and Davey Jones, but no Killian) and he’s a lovely tribute to a lot of piratey characters like DPR, Captain Jack, Will (who eventually became a Captain as well) etc etc. They said they wouldn’t use Jack without Johnny Depp but I’ve seen bits and pieces of a lot of different characters, intentional or not, that are thrown into his performance. Again, we all see what we see / what we want to see especially when we’ve been overthinking things and are having hiatus-fever!

I will agree with the cloud metaphor though! In fact that may be my new favorite way of explaining we all see different things and it’s ok because we’re never going to get it right 100% of the time anyway! I completely agree that while SOME things are put in specifically as a parallel, other things are merely similar or just happenstance because there’s only so many ways to say or do similar things. There’s no way any list of reasons to ship has every single thing be intentional on it. Looking back on however the ships work themselves out, we’ll convince ourselves of various things they probably never remotely intended.

@RumplesGirl wrote:

Well that’s true but out of everyone on the JR, Regina is–to me–the most outcast. Snowing will never quite trust her, and Emma’s going to be keeping her eye on her. Hook may have opened up to Regina but he is closer to Emma right now, so that could be the reason. Again, cloud watching metaphor.

Regina is still a central figure as she is one of Henry’s mothers and I think she’ll be very easily persuaded by Rumple to go to extremes to get Henry back (not that Emma wouldn’t, but her and her parents methods are vastly different from people like Rumple & Regina).

I’ll agree that Hook is definitely closest to Emma right now (Regina kinda expected him to have died when she shoved him into Mal’s pit, and he didn’t really care much if she sacrificed herself or not). He tried to make Regina see reason because he just learned that lesson the hard way and she didn’t take the bait. He talks to a lot of people and he did share one completely Killian scene with her where he laid all that out and she still refused to listen. *sigh* Sometimes I want to shake her because 2 steps forward, 1 giant leap backward. Hopefully she learned something in the finale *fingers crossed* but I don’t anticipate them getting along for a bit unless he actually chooses to work with her over Emma (he could I suppose, if he has reason to want to get out of there realllly fast and doesn’t care about collateral damage but this is Hook we’re talking about: he’s been burned by Regina & Cora and never really wanted to team up with them in the first place. On top of that, this is the guy who kicked fishman into the sea so he wouldn’t suffocate on land. I don’t really think he’s going to go in all guns blazing / magic-wielding and ignore the wishes of Snowing & Emma when he knew they were planning on doing things the long hard stupid way to save Regina (which is all he knew was in store for him when he turned around to help).

I could see either being an outcast I suppose depending on the circumstances. I’m anxious to see if they break up into groups and how that works itself out cause some you just can’t trust and others you don’t want separated. Should make for good drama though (and I can’t wait to explore NL and see the interactions with these particular characters – so many good storyline options!)

@RumplesGirl wrote:

Gosh, someone remind me. When did that video come out? Cause I’m pretty sure Neal hadn’t been seen since Tallahassee yet. I think they were trying very hard to keep his story shut up because they didn’t want to reveal that you’d be seeing him again so soon and putting him in that video would have tipped off the audience and maybe ruined the surprise that he was more important that you thought (if you’re not you know…us).

I want to say that was over the first hiatus so yes, after Tallahassee but before Manhattan and the like. Again, I take everything with a grain of salt from the morons in the PR department. They very well could have gone with their own interpretation of what they saw in front of them / just liked the brief scene they used. I doubt anybody important actually has an input in those things whatsoever and you’re right, it didn’t imply that he was coming back and they didn’t have access to him coming in the first place so may not have known. I could see them thinking that (even though we know to expect such things – seriously I don’t even know if they watch the show sometimes!). Not sure I can see them actually thinking out not wanting to ruin a surprise about his return though since they basically gave it away in his promo (although not quite as badly as the Frankenstein one). I know some CSers take it as something to hold onto (and I think EVERYONE holds on to every little thing regardless of how trivial it is) but again, I really don’t trust them so think someone working there just happened to either like the scene, like CS, or looked at it the way some of us did and said Neal was the past and being paralleled to the present where we’re watching CS play out and expect them to be a couple down the line that fits in with alll these other couples that actually have been proven. I get why they wanted to include Emma, I’m just surprised that they did (and honestly, can somebody intelligent be in charge of promo stuff in the future? Please?). So honestly, who knows, I just know it happened.

@RumplesGirl wrote:

*laughs because I’ve has been privy to most of these really outlandish attacks and it’s really quite tragic what my fellow shipmates on different social media do*

Yes, yes you have. *hands over cookies* I have had so many meltdowns from absolutely idiotic comments that had nothing to do with shipping wars blow up in my face. I can’t count the number of times we’ve head-desked or wanted to throw something RG but thank you for being there!

There’s no need to look at somebody who ships something different and automatically assume that every aspect of the show must be skewed for them so never take anything they say at face value and assume they mean to input shipper stuff. It’s also not meant as an insult if we say something hasn’t been proven yet on the show, but saying that it hasn’t happened *yet* tends to make people tell me to get over my ship and that it has so been proven. (With how much celebrating SFers have done with the ILYs, I’m pretty sure somebody would have loved to be able to point out exactly WHERE Henry was proven to be the product of TL, am I right? Cause that would put a lot of silliness to rest and let us all try to come up with a backup plan.

@RumplesGirl wrote:

Absolutely. If CS is endgame and TL then they better make me understand it. Because right now I see the potential for a romance–albeit a brief one–for nothing more because I think the revelation that Neal is alive is going to change a lot of things for a lot of people.

Ditto in reverse. All I want is for the show to make me see it for SF. Right now I see a lot of baggage but I’m not 100% convinced, especially with another option in the picture that I think is a great one, that they’re meant to be. They were meant to be for a time, for something bigger as Neal pointed out in the bar, and that thing was Henry. I’m sure they will be in each others lives down the road and getting along (and they’ve shown they can do that which is a good starting point for *anything* but right now I still believe in CS.

I do agree that Neal being alive is going to change a lot of things for people and I’m curious as to just how that will affect everyone and what happens down the line.

Neal: And one more thing – if anything changes, and she does her job, this insanity ends, and she’s free…

August: I’ll send you a postcard.

Thanks! I knew you’d know where to look and I didn’t think he said anything to really explain the situation more in-depth. (I’m still waiting for the name can’t be said outloud payoff though, I want that so badly so make up for the typewriter scene!) Also – I stand by what I said earlier, I don’t think that Neal really expected Emma to know and/or try to find him. What was she going to do, follow a dove? Or did he expect August to give her a ride back to NY? The way they left things, it sounds like the ball was in his court. He may very well have wished that August would fill her in on some things, but he still started his relationship with Tamara immediately after August officially headed to SB so I’m inclined to think he wasn’t expecting Emma to try to find him – otherwise he’s worse than I thought and I was just starting to like him again. (Seriously if he expected her to show up in a few weeks/months, way to majorly sabotage it! Bad enough he didn’t go find her after the postcard but he got his wires crossed with August if he thought Emma was supposed to seek him out and on top of that, 2 minutes after hearing August say that he starts something with Tamara? And I thought Rumple had sabotage isssues!) So I go back to my original thinking in that Neal didn’t think Emma would forgive him and he chose not to pay attention to the post card. He may have thought about it / agonized over it for a bit, but I don’t think, based on what we know right now, that he really expected her to show up. If he did well…he would have been majorly surprised and would have had his fiancee right there and felt majorly stupid and guilty. Not that he didn’t this time around, but I realllly don’t think he expected to ever see her again, having made the choice to cut ties with FTL but be happy for her finding her parents etc.)

@RumplesGirl wrote:

And of course, conversely: Can I get on board QueenFire right now? Not remotely. Could it happen someday? Maybe. Will I like it more if I didn’t see people say, ‘if this happens then CS is free?” ABSOLUTELY.

Again, ditto in reverse. I have the same reaction to HookedQueen because I just don’t get it and I haven’t seen many attempts at logical arguments other than they’re both hot and it would pave the way for SF. I know the EvilRegals want Regina to find love and they need it to be someone who’s in the main cast so that they don’t get tossed to the wayside and I get that. I don’t see why it has to be Hook though. I’ve seen compelling *ideas* behind FQ but I head-desk when I see 99% of the HQ comments. I certainly don’t want him to take her as 2nd choice and I would think the Evil Regals would hate that as well frankly.

I agree that in order to make sure our main characters find love, they need it to be with a central figure so that they’re around and I do believe the love interests for the main characters should be important. (One of the reasons I’m waiting to see what they do with Ariel since we haven’t seen her on screen yet – if it’s just a mini-arc then I don’t want them writing her & Hook off into Mermaid Lagoon and never seeing them again. I don’t watch the show just for Hook and I loved Season 1 (where he was supposed to be *sigh*) but I do love the character and missed him when he was offscreen for ages (poor Colin and his broken leg).

So I get the argument and it’s one of the reasons I think it’s highly likely that between Regina, Neal, Emma, and Hook will be our final couples. Out of those I see arguments for 3 options but not all 4 *as of now.* Could they change my mind down the line? Absolutely. Am I timidly liking the idea of FQ based on various things that make sense to me? Yes. Would I ever bother wasting my time to actually think about a ship and then actually ship it if it’s entire purpose is to pave the way for the other ship I would much rather be spending my time on? Heck no. I do like the idea of FQ (waiting for more interaction), just like I liked the idea of SF (waiting for him to grow on me a bit more within the context of that relationship), and like the idea of Hookriel (waiting to see what the heck they do with Ariel but I agree Phee, the idea does have its appeal as long as it isn’t a 2nd choice or she’s been pining over him for 200 years but he wasn’t ready to move on and it’s all so depressing), and I love the idea of CS.

I don’t think any of us (and I would hope not since everyone who has been commenting seems very rational!) would really truly want to just pawn somebody off on someone else just to get them out of the way. Perhaps out there is somebody that can effectively argue HQ to me someday or perhaps I’ll find it on my own through the show but with everything we have to go on right now, that’s the only part of that “rhombus” (and I think Adam said he was only joking but goodness knows) that I can’t see remotely happening. To each their own and I must just look at clouds very very differently (actually I’m sure I do but occasionally I’m right ;).

@RumplesGirl wrote:

Interesting. I actually feel that most of our regulars on the forums are CS’ers. Their thread is about ten times as busy as the SF thread. The livechats…they are a different matter and you and I have discussed that at length. On other social media, I think it’s split 50/50.

The livechats are definitely a different thing as there are maybe 2 or 3 us of that I know of but most don’t ever say anything about it in there because they see me get jumped on. Can’t say I blame them when I respond with a “no, we haven’t seen that proven on the show YET but it hasn’t been ruled out either” and automatically yell “get over your ship” and then go on to state that something has been proven. Trust me, if people could prove it they would have already. Headcanon and canon-canon are entirely different things and it’s easy to get swept up in the idea of things. Sometimes we need each other, and people with opposing viewpoints, to bring us back down to Earth. Even before the shipping wars got heated up people seemed to hate me for saying nothing had been ruled out but I think that was mostly really hating various theories. The shipper wars have turned EVERYTHING into shipping even when it’s not. Very frustrating but I think only a couple CSers are east coast and/or say anything. I think Obisgirl is in there and I can’t remember if there are any others.

As to the being active on the forum thing – I do find that strange actually since most of the ones I know around here are SFers. I think part of it is there aren’t that many safe havens for us and it’s a good setup here. The thread may be long but it’s mostly the same group (though we add people occasionally which is always fun!). I remember there being a SF thread that was a decent length at one point after Tallahassee but I know some just boycotted shipper threads altogether because they got tired of the shipping wars and then a new one was recently started that’s the official SF one. I think the old one was their quote or something? “What I really want is you” and that was super popular til the winter hiatus and I think it died down for whatever reason.

Maybe the CSers are just very devoted to combing over everything to grab every straw we can? It’s fun to have a safe place to go and as we’ve discussed at length, it’s very very scary everywhere else. I recently joined tumblr and am learning but apparently CS has been deemed “the cancer of the fandom” and asked not to tag Emma or OUAT in any of their posts (people seriously, just block the things that are also tagged CS) – I avoid the Colin tag a lot because there’s a lot of HQ in it. I don’t go and write on their stuff and tell them how awful it is though. I stay inside my little bubble and try not to think about the fact we’re being banished left and right.

Other social media – it’s a mixed bag. For every person is vocal about something there’s lots of others that are quiet. I find the people who are angry about stuff speak up way more than the people that love it and to some casual viewers who may not be on social media and don’t rewatch the show a million times, they may only see one ship or another in the first place.

I’ve heard some casual ones that love SF and others who think CS is a given because of their chemistry so it’s just like it is everywhere else: to each their own.

I do find it odd the way the polls have gone and I’m honestly not sure who is voting their hands off (or even in the 1 vote polls) because I don’t see on what other universe that Dreamy/Nova after 1 episode cream SF in a poll, nor do I see Hook/Milah edging out CS. RumBelle winning most things makes TOTAL sense but those other two I just can’t explain other than hate-voting which is ridiculous.

I know the current thing is some poll that apparently had the options of Neal, Hook, and Other (which might as well say Regina because Graham is dead, August is back to being a kid, and Mad Swan is only real in real life) and Other has over 45%, Hook has 40% or so and Neal is at like…12%. That seems VERY skewed to me based on my experiences around here, but I’d rather stay here and deal with the occasional crazy people than be out in a perfect CS bubble and not understand if it doesn’t go my way. (Honestly I just want it all to make sense and not to waste our time or our hearts on things they have no intention of resolving eventually – even if it means both sides have to be explored to make it legit.)

I don’t want the whole show to revolve around it though. This isn’t Vampire Diaries (which I do love and think my ships are basically sorted over there thank goodness, because I can only take one shipping-war-fandom at a time. Sometimes on social media, it feels like everything OUAT is shipping-related. Sometimes I do have a question that isn’t remotely CS related and likewise I see some of you asking things about the BF or t-word issues. See, rational people! (Really annoyed I forgot about Jen’s livetweet earlier, I wanted to ask about Emma’s relationship with Anton and what she thought of that. To me he’s like Emma’s Grumpy: I love Snow & Grumpy’s relationship and want to see more of Emma & Anton – see, not a shipper question, just a friend one that doesn’t even relate to my favorite male character! I adore him and his show didn’t get picked up so there’s always a chance he’ll be hanging with Team7 again :))

@RumplesGirl wrote:

Hence why I sounded like a lunatic for the first few pages on this thread. I was like: PANIC! PANIC!

Yep and I really really appreciate you saying something! As much as it has helped me in derailing this ship and writing ridiculously long response (I’M SORRY – it’s a writer thing. :S I feel the need to fully explain myself when others are so easily able to boil it down to a small paragraph. I’ll be focusing on my novel/screenplay/whichever it ends up being in July though until in and around spoilers & we have a 2 week break coming up.

I can’t tell you how happy it made me to see a non-CSer point out stuff. I do think the poll was made with no ill-will and as I’ve said many times before, CS doesn’t remotely count in it right now. I just can’t justify ignoring all the other couples unless it’s a supercouple of Once thing and in that case as we’ve all stated, some of us have reasons to doubt their status right now, 100% proclaim them as TL just yet. I’m big on not ruling things out until I have to. But it meant a lot to see it come from someone else. I’m sure as forum moderator your alarm bells were ringing for sure! Not sure how much of a fuss I would have made as sometimes I write stuff and walk away and sometimes I argue it, but seeing something like that come from someone who DOES want SF to be on that list and not have anybody question its status, that made me happy. Personally I consider any couple that has been shown on the show at any time as a couple to be “legit” and then we have the list of proven TLs. They may very well belong on that list eventually, but I can’t in good conscience promote that they belong for sure right now. (I’m a very indecisive person!)

@RumplesGirl wrote:

My motto has always been Ship and let Ship. Some ships make no sense to me, I’ll admit. I’m like, I don’t understand that one at all. But if it works for you, then by god you ship your little shipper heart out.

Ditto 1 million %.

And with that I officially give up. Hiatus-fever is definitely getting the best of me and I don’t know what points I’ve argued into the ground or if I’ve agreed with the same thing a million times at this point.

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[MysteryKat25]

@RumplesGirl wrote:

Not sure if this had been posted already but here is the official ABC video from Monte Carlo, featuring Mr. Colin.

http://www.spoilertv.com/2013/06/abc-shows-at-monte-carlo.html

Thanks for the link! FINALLY got around to watching it and while there’s not *tons* of Colin I saw people from other shows I watch as well which was fun and what there WAS of Colin was spectacular. Love his smile and getting to hear his real accent (not that I don’t love Hook’s voice too) but I really enjoy it. Great video.

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[MysteryKat25]

PART 2:

As somebody pointed out: we can’t stop the story in the middle. Can I take it as definitive proof that Neal is the past & Hook is the future? No, because Emma & Neal HAVE to deal with the past first whereas Emma & Hook don’t. Do I add it to my list of little things that add up that right now I feel favor CS? Yes. But at the end of the day I try to take everything with a grain of salt.

I completely understand why some see Hook and think he’s the same with everyone, or they might just be good friends and list actual reasons why he would never fall for her / let himself have her because of Bae, but then I also know people who do see that they would at least be good friends, that he does treat her differently and some of us see romantic tension we can’t imagine just disappearing. For every person that is sure Hook would never do that to Bae after hurting him so much, for 1 minute I think “well, that may be true” and then the other side of me says “but you can’t choose who you fall in love with, you just do” – which reminds of what Cora said when she realized Hook would rather align himself with Emma. (I agree that he liked Emma’s methods / reasons a lot more than Cora’s, who wouldn’t? But he was also impressed with Emma, and annoyed as he was with her for leaving him there he still would rather have worked with her. He even tried to stab Cora before she disappeared). Cora said “You chose her, and the consequences of that decision.” She even added more of the sentiment when using Aurora as a mouthpiece to get to Emma. Rumple may be biased & Cora may be evil but that doesn’t mean that neither is capable of sensing *something.* What the consequences of choosing Emma may be, including potentially a broken heart, we have yet to see. (As long as the bias is acknowledged, I don’t mind using it. I believe I mentioned it in a CS thread because I felt like Rumple was more biased in wanting his son to be happy and Cora had everything to lose by being right about Hook, but I still addressed that both sensed something – and Rumple wasn’t “wrong” in what he told Neal that he can’t marry another woman while his heart belongs to Emma. He also wasn’t wrong that Emma has some feelings she needs to work out, but Rumple does have more of a stake in the matter. As long as the biases are noted, it’s ok as I believe RG stated somewhere recently because it was getting out of hand but I digress).

I can see both sides of it though. Hook may very well fight against himself because of Bae and pull back and leave Emma very confused even, but that doesn’t mean he can help himself if it comes to that – just as she may feel like she needs a do-over on her first love but at the same time may still feel inexplicably drawn to Hook and not able to help herself. We just don’t know – yet. I want the show to go on for a long time and I really hope they don’t drag out her true love too long (especially so that they can have some time to build up a plausible and wonderful relationship for who is left) but I am hesitant to set endgame early unless it’s proven as TL somehow and the show itself acknowledges it as such.

I have an easier time putting myself in Emma’s & Hook’s shoes for some reason than I Neal’s, but I appreciate the insight into what Neal might have been feeling. Likewise I *hope* I have managed to express what I feel like Hook is battling with as well. They ALL have a lot of emotions going on, just like we would if we were in their shoes.

I agree completely Phee that it’s tough to read the individual shipper threads because we’re all grasping at straws to believe we’re right and won’t be left broken-hearted and it’s always tempting to say something but usually best not to. I’ve read the SF stuff every once in awhile and it usually just makes me want to throw something because it’s mostly “there’s nothing there” or “they’re delusional” or “making stuff up” with regards to Hook. Likewise I know I haven’t been the kindest in my wording regarding Neal when I’m surrounded by CS people because I know they understand why I’m feeling angry with him for whatever reason right at that moment. Shipper threads are not the place to actually discuss opposing ships, but rather a safe haven to not feel alone & be able to celebrate any moment (or perceived moment) for that particular couple without getting beaten upside the head for it.

Believe when I say it’s not easy to be a CSer sometimes and that we are very small in number, especially around here. So while I am happy for SF people when they do get moments and they get to celebrate, it’s equally difficult to hear “get over your ship” when a CS person mentions anything positive either. Just because we’re outnumbered doesn’t mean we don’t exist! I’m feeling slightly better *right now* thanks to this thread about how things may go down when we finally get S3 but I will freely admit I’m dreading the livechats knowing that Hook & Emma basically have to interact since they’re on the same ship / mission because there has been so much bad blood between them when we all just want Emma to be happy.

When there has been so much hatred for Hook (and Belle really which still confuses me) that it takes away the fun when you want to say something when something good happens and people jump on you and tell you to either get over it, you’re delusional, or you’re a horrible person for wanting so and so to be happy. I realize there are people who don’t even want Emma in a relationship and they’re just as entitled to that as the rest of us, and we are all entitled to an opinion, I’m just grateful that I’m seeing positive SF/CS FAN interaction. I want to be happy for whatever moments I get (especially if my ship doesn’t happy *again* >.< then I will have something to hold onto) and I want everyone else to be happy for their moments too. It's not fun having an unpopular opinion by any means, but I’m much more hopeful now that things won’t be so overboard and hopefully they’ll continue doing a good job of giving us all something to hold onto and hope for until they have to take it away. As frustrating as that is, it’s still a show about hope so while we wait for official answers on things, we can but hope for the best.

I sincerely hope that some of what I’ve said has made people feel slightly better about Hook being a viable option as you have all made me feel better about Neal being one too. It’s reminded me of why after Tallahassee I was more torn even though I have my reasons to ship CS because of it. It’s encouraging to me that people who have no reason to be open to Hook are invested in him as a character (or get emotional when he does and want to give him a hug) even if it’s just a little bit. I’m certainly hoping for Neal to find happiness and there have been moments when I wanted to give him a hug as well. They’ve all been through so much and we all just want Emma to be happy, right?

And with that I think I am close to being fried. Maybe the forum break will be a good thing and when we come back it’ll be all nice and new and shiny and then we’ll have CC & filming will start and we’ll have actual things to debate that will get us somewhere! (I thoroughly do not expect to change anyone’s minds about who to ship, and like the fact that people are at least hoping for friendship / may be mildly open if needbe down the line. We all love the show and that’s what matters but I love that so many of my Oncer friends don’t ship the same things as me (even if it would be tons easier!). It’s nice to see actual discussions rather than hatred. Makes it SO much more enjoyable for everyone!

[All of that being said I just took a look at the voting since that is what this thread was originally about and I’m sure most seeing this are skipping past the discussions at this point (not that I can blame them). I just wanted to remind people, I am NOT arguing that they were a legit couple on the show, I just don’t agree that only those 3 were options as it eliminates others that are either definitely TL or were at some point or another definitely a couple and am NOT saying that CS needs to be up there (yet) – just for anyone coming in late to the thread. The debate initially was only ever whether they *should* be included as an official TL couple / actual couple right now / supercouple of the show (meaning a front-running canon couple that is definitively TL) and I’m inclined to believe that this last category is what was used since Cinderella/Thomas and Philora weren’t used in it. If the list had been a full list of all couples ever shown to us in any capacity, then it would truly be a pick your favorite “legitimate” couple ever shown as a couple on the show poll and I wouldn’t take issue with it at all.

I fully acknowledge there are lots of SF fans and rightfully so, though I’m glad to see RumBelle getting lots of love too and that’s where my vote went for this (though I adore Snowing when they’re being Snowing – I really prefer them in FTL flashbacks and hope we get to see lots of that side of their characters enter into things in present day next season. They need to make a comeback!)

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[MysteryKat25]

So um, good to know in case this carries over to the new forums: there is a character limit! Which…I have apparently reached (AHH!) If anybody is wondering what the current character limit is, try 60k which is roughly 19 pages (and that is CHARACTER and not WORD limit, just to clarify). *shakes head* Hopefully I can put just as much behind my July CampNaNoWriMo project as I do in one day in these forums cause I am far more prolific when I don’t need to be so! Editing this down a bit & breaking it into 2 parts.

PART 1:

Again thanks for all the responses and the civilness of this thread! I’ll echo RG here when I say that I’ve tried many times other places and it’s just hitting your head against a brick wall. Also seriously, I appreciate taking the time to read everything but please don’t feel the need to comment on every little thing. I know I ramble on a lot (it’s a writer thing, sorry!) but I appreciate that people have actually taken time to read what I said. I won’t take offense, promise! These posts can get crazy long & out of control and I know some stuff is probably rehashing the same old thing after awhile as we don’t have anything new to go on yet.

I realize that people don’t read as much into certain things while others base everything on it and that’s fine. We all see things differentlt and we’ll have to wait and see how things play out in the end. To most things there are two ways to look at it and I know for many who love either side of the triangle, they just don’t see ANY buildup for the other.

Thanks for at least acknowleding it as one interpretation of events. As we’ve seen throughout this thread there are many ways to look at things and some put more stock in things than others, but with Hook & Emma they *keep going back* to the bean and their hands and trust. These are their common themes so when some see that again and again, we do think it means something. (I can also see how people never made the connection or felt like the bean didn’t mean anything. I just know in CS circles, we see that they keep going back to things like that).

He made a point of telling her (and himself) that he was done with her when the bean was shriveled up and useless, but that didn’t last long. Hook is a man who holds a grudge and other than that one time with the shriveled bean in front of Cora – (self preservation mode on multiple levels). His “I’m done with you” is about as convincing as any of Emma’s saying she was completely over Neal.

Hook is impressed with her and doesn’t hold a grudge with her. If anybody else had betrayed him like that, he certainly wouldn’t try to flirt with them after, or turn around because something they said struck a cord with him. He’d be long gone and rightfully so since everyone in town has betrayed him that he’s given the opportunity to do so. He keeps up the Hook facade most of the time but Emma is the only one who gets to see the real him (yes this may because she’s also the only one to try, but she’s betrayed him and he keeps letting her in when we know he can hold a grudge easily). I’m sorry more people don’t see how genuine he is with her but there is a difference that some of see – it’s rare to see him smile for instance, and Emma impresses him and in Tallahassee, when they were working as a team, he literally lit up and was happy, however briefly. Whether that means they’ll be friends or romantic, he is far more open with her and he smiles a lot more – genuine smiles, not innuendo-driven cocky pirateness. That’s one of the things that is so beloved about Tallahassee for CS fans is that he genuinely seems to enjoy her company and is impressed with her (and not afraid to tell her so). He also lets her in – they are open books to one another, and she is the only person in town he cares about on any level at this point.

I agree that Hook doesn’t really know anybody else but I still think he made a point of talking directly to Emma when he said he needed reminding he could care about someone other than himself. It was her offer that reminded him of the one he once made to Bae and I truly believe that it was a combination of the two that brought him back. He may have come back for Bae and he may have come back for Emma, I completely understand why the latter is remotely in question since even after the finale some refuse to see *any* good in Hook and/or potential in a CS setup, but the way they showed all of that made it seem to some of us like it had more significance and it was at least partially Emma that brought him back (whether romantic or not.)

He knows what it’s like o be in her shoes in this instance and how badly he wanted Bae to accept his offer and Bae’s refusal was his last straw. This is a real chance for him and he believed that Emma meant it. Her words echoed his own from long ago and brought those feelings back to the surface. Again just my interpretation putting myself in Hook’s shoes for a minute.

He’s been out for himself for a long time and I agree, it’s very helpful to him to find the one person who can help him believe in himself again, even if it’s just as a friend. Yes he had a very contemplative moment with Regina trying to convince her that maybe she was heading down the wrong path and it didn’t work (and then she tried to kill him and he had no problem letting her die to sacrifice herself for everyone else if she wanted to). I don’t see hope for these two for anything much simply because together, in their depths of despair and revenge and all of it, they would be toxic. To me it would be like having Rumple with Cora. Hook showed us that he is realizing how bad of an idea wasting your life on vengeance is and is moving away from all of that. I have hope that Regina will do the same and is a little bit, but I don’t see these two being best buddies anytime soon, if ever (and frankly I hope not – I see nothing positive in their interaction other than it shows that Hook is yet another person trying to help Regina out and she once again didn’t take the offer). I have hope she will in the future, but both are easily swayed to darkness and need someone lighter to help keep them on the right path. Hook is realizing that right now and I hope it continues, whereas because of Regina’s desire to get Henry back, she may slip and do “whatever it takes” which could cause conflict with the others on the ship. They all want the same thing, but will differ on their methods and I could see Regina and Rumple going up against the Charmings for sure. I’m not sure what Hook will do but I’d like to see him show he’s learned his lesson rather than pull a Regina.

I can definitely see where people are coming from on wanting Hook & Emma to be at least good friends as they understand each other (again, in a more positive way than he connects to the villains because she brings out the best in him, and guides him away from that path rather than spiraling like Regina) and am glad SF people at least like the idea of Hook being a part of things (hopefully for both Bae’s and for Emma’s sakes) though I still see it as much more setup to a potential romantic involvement. Emma felt connected to him very early on or she wouldn’t have said what she did when she left him up the beanstalk. It was a practical, strategic move and she could have just said “sorry, needed the headstart”. She was upset about doing that to him because she trusted him and was enjoying the obvious (or not so obvious to some it seems) connection and was afraid to believe in it because of the pain before with Neal and it was paralleled to that relationship.

I can’t just ignore that of all the times they chose to show Emma’s backstory, it was to show her potentially moving on with someone present day but being afraid to because she couldn’t trust her instincts. This was also directly after an episode where we saw Daniel – Regina’s supposed true love tell her to love again so the idea of moving forward and not letting the past dictate your life was mentioned just prior to that, and in fact, since it happened in 2×05 just prior to Emma beginning to interact with Hook in the first place in the same episode she met him. Usually the stories parallel what’s going on in the present day so that we can understand why people react to different things. They chose to show her last real relationship up against her feeling drawn to someone she was too afraid to trust directly because of how things ended up with Neal, to the point that instead of letting him leave her somewhere, she jumped the gun and locked him up the beanstalk. If she hadn’t said what she did, I can completely see why people would say it’s all in our heads even though I think they had great chemistry the whole episode, but the fact remains that she did which at least brings it into question. Still up for debate as with any other line said on the show (especially since some are SO frustrating to work around) but personally I think it’s an important one, especially given the context, not to mention how she said it.

She also didn’t need to let him literally single-handedly bandage her hand but she let him take care of her (just like with Graham) and she didn’t have to pull him into an embrace to keep him from the tripwire, she could have just pulled him back a little. The closeness to him was affecting her and I’m not sure how at least a little bit of tension between them went undetected by so many unless the flashbacks were just too captivating. I agree that in the flashbacks Neal had his moments so I can see why that obviously happened for some (can’t say I personally was too impressed even though I went in expecting to love him once we knew it was Bae because I absolutely love young Bae). I just felt that the tension between Hook & Emma was a little more obvious than it apparently was – hence the confusion I guess. I get why it was obvious that SF were sweet together back in the day before outside forces split them apart and it makes for a sweet story so it was a good starting point for that relationship as well for sure. I was far more torn after Tallahassee (even though I was already in love with CS) and it wasn’t until after that and present day that I really flipped the switch. I definitely felt more connected to what was happening in her life today than what happened years ago other than to how deeply it was affecting her though.

We’ve seen that Hook meant it when he said he wouldn’t have done the same to her because he came back at the end. That reinforced her trust instincts as well because she wanted to trust him and even though she and her family have betrayed him multiple times now, he still came back and is helping them (honestly regardless of the reason: he came back and that’s what she needed, whether he’s a friend or more, she needed someone to do something that she believed that they would). She believed so much in him she didn’t even check the pouch. His coming back proves her instincts (initially and again at the diner where she thought he had accepted her offer) were right about him and had she not betrayed him first, he never would have. Betraying Emma was never part of his plan – even Cora knew this and he likely would not have even hesitated to help Emma and felt the need to run off to save himself in the finale. He asked her what her reasoning was but he had already given her the empty pouch and was still mulling over his options. Everyone there betrayed him, and he very easily could have gone off to save his own skin but he didn’t, thus vindicating her belief in him (and they made an effort to show her reaction to him coming back – he gives her hope, a chance to believe in *something* whether it’s him or her instincts or whatever you want to call it, at a time when she desperately needs some).

I know people hate his innuendos and don’t think he treats Emma iin a special way (and I certainly don’t think he’s in love with her yet) but there was a LOT of built up tension in Tallahassee. The Handwrap (reminiscent of Willabeth in PotC and Rapunel/Flynn in Tangled, also of Graham helping clean her wounds after her fight with Regina), the embrace that she fought against but not hard enough (enough to show she was fighting it, not enough to actually put a stop to it) – let’s face it Emma would just punch somebody if she didn’t want certain types of attention. She certainly threatens it enough. It reminded some of us of when she was so adament that she wasn’t upset by the Graham/Regina stuff (to the point where MM felt the need to tell her she was the only one unaware of her feelings for Graham) but clearly wanted to open up and give Graham a chance and eventually did so (albeit a little too late *sniffle) but all of that piled together is why CSers love Tallahassee just as much as SFs do. Hey at least we can agree on something, right?)

There are a lot of things in their interactions that are completely unnecessary. Hook is perfectly capable of talking to anybody but he focuses on her. True she may be the only one he really knows or likes around there, but they make a point of showing us their reactions to one another constantly. There was so much time that could have been used for something else in the finale and they gave us lots of lingering looks. When they showed reaction shots on the dock right before everyone got on the ship, they made a point of showing Snowing, Rumbelle, & Hook/Emma. That’s 2 canon couples and then one potential one. They didn’t include Regina standing with anyone as a couple. They showed the couples. I feel like there’s *at least* a good foundation for the possibility of something which is what sets up the triangle (and again there’s a much longer list, I’m just addressing the points made here).

I agree that romance is not on anybody’s priority list for right now because the focus is on Henry and I’m sure that Hook does feel some attachment because of Bae but I would like to argue one point and I know Hook had that awkward line to Charming and I hope we get more information on how long Bae was with him because it’s driving me batty but I’m not sure I feel comfortable saying that Bae was ever his son. He was willing to give up his revenge and wanted to raise Bae as his son, but I’m not sure he ever got the chance. To me, based on what we’ve seen so far, it’s similar to Regina & Owen. I do believe he absolutely wanted Bae to be his son back then and I look forward to seeing how their relationship progresses over the years as I really loved what little time they did have together before Bae discovered Milah’s picture, but I think they’re entirely different situations between Hook / Bae & Emma / Henry. Also he didn’t even know Henry was in danger when he first came back to help. In fact Henry would have been the ONLY one safe (as Adam has tweeted that Alexandra wouldn’t have been because she was conceived in FTL *technicalities*)

That whole scene where he was “working with” GOAT reminded me more of his self-preservation mode and when asked if he was in his “absolutely” should have been sending off MAJOR red flags to GOAT because it was not remotely convincing. He knew that what they found on Regina (who he tried to help out but she wasn’t having any of it – yet another time he has made someone an offer and they’ve refused him) was bad for everyone and he didn’t want innocents to suffer. He chose to help long before he ever knew there was any involvement with Bae. He came back at the end after knowing that, but I’m not sure I’d classify that as him and Emma both doing things “for their sons.” I do agree that Henry will be the focus though and I don’t think should CS happen that it will be because one or both are pursuing that anytime soon if ever, but would rather be a slow progression that comes out of nowhere and then they eventually realize it.

Ditto with the in-law stuff which drives me even battier – Milah couldn’t marry Hook because she was married to Rumple (though they obviously behaved as such) and Emma was never married to Neal, so none of this in-law stuff ever validates an argument.

Now backing up to what Phee said because it was on a different page & I just remembered to check (I’m usually so much better at these things grr – I blame the forum being down. Nice forum. Behave!):

One thing I would definitely like to address is that yes, over time my opinions on things have changed slightly. Obviously I’m far more Pro-CS in the CS thread because it’s the only safe place around here to be that, including forums & live-chats. It’s aggravating but it’s also the truth 99% of the time. There are days where I feel like it doesn’t make any sense at all for SF, and then I read or see something that changes things slightly to where I’m more torn (like this thread has helped remind me of being more torn earlier on in the season for sure) and then there are days when the “evidence” is more compelling for me to believe in my ship and not doubt so much. Obviously when I’m just slightly more torn but still in love with my ship I don’t go back to the CS thread and say guys guess what, I’m more ok if we have to settle (though I do mention it occasionally, especially if I’m on a worry rant instead of an I had a great thought today ramble).

So things do change overtime and I hope that’s true of everyone. Just like there are days when I put more significance on a line or a look or a screenshot and then somebody mentions something that counteracts that. I’m all about having legitimate reasons to believe, and if there was something to erase every single thing on my list other than it just being what I want then I would find a way to accept that. There’s no point in shipping if there’s 0 chance of it happening.

I know my comments in the CS thread are not often kind to Neal because I do have issues with him that others don’t. I remember the comments I think you’re mentioning Phee, though goodness knows how far back they are as that thread is massive, but I definitely remember having days where it just didn’t compute to me at all based on what we know of Emma and what things they’ve bothered to show us and chew up time showing us when we know they cut lots out of each episode. I still love my ship and believe in it, but I also have days where I’m more open to SF than others, usually after something has been presented in a nice and logical way. There are definitely days, especially on first reactions to things, where I didn’t see it at all (and I started off very torn even though I became a CSer instantly – both stories are compelling to me personally, I just like one over the other) and over time things stacked up for CS in a way that they just hadn’t for SF.

That’s why this thread has been so great (long, but great) in that it’s presenting SF to me in a nice & positive light without attacking me for loving Hook. Every thing I have seen (and hopefully everything I have said in response) has come across as being “yes but consider this” and “I see what you’re saying though I interpreted that scene entirely differently.” These are all things I can definitely get behind because at the end of the day, those things aren’t going to change, but they might plant a seed of “well hmm, I hadn’t noticed this or that or the other and maybe that is a setup for it if it happens” – at least if that seed is there, potentially down the line if the opposite of what any given person wants to have happen happens, they may remember that and say “oh, so that didn’t come completely out of left field. I didn’t see it originally but I know a lot did, good for them.” I’d really like to think that as heartbroken as any of us would be if we don’t get our first choice for ships, that we’ll be kind to one another and hope that whoever is left has a ship they are equally as passionate down the line for.

I know with Lost I preferred one over the other, was sad when it turned out differently because it made no sense to me why bother with it going as far as it did and then just switch it up, and am still to this day learning to love the 2nd pairing for my favorite guy, but I fully accept that there were clues along the way early on that set up the triangle but ultimately ended up with the pairings that were there. It wasn’t out of left field (though I hope that on OUAT it’s handled a little bit better) and I learned to find the sweet moments in the 2nd pairing so I could try to be happy for my favorite guy. It certainly didn’t stop me from loving the show and while I don’t want to get my heart broken again, Hook’s my guy and I have hope he’ll have a great love story regardless of who it’s with, and I want the same for Neal even though he’s not my first choice. It’s a show about True Love! We all want them to be with their TL, right? There’s really no need to argue because as awesome as a relationship may be, if they’re ultimately supposed to be with someone else and are better suited for that person, then maybe that’s where they’re meant to be. I’m sure Rumple was gutted with Milah and then Cora, but I’m pretty sure he’d also say ultimately he needs to be with Belle. I sincerely hope that’s the case for the 3 people in the triangle as well, even though it will be excruciating to watch that aspect unfold to begin with as somebody will be hurt. *sniffle*

Phee I love what you said about wanting to reach in the screen and hug Hook! Especially coming from a huge SF fan it makes me happy to see that more are embracing (or rather, wanting to embrace, sometimes literally!) Hook as a character. I hope everyone saw the real emotion in the finale and are at least a little more open to him as a character, even if they don’t want him with Emma (seriously the hatred around here constantly trying to get rid of Hook and/or Belle is ridiculous!). My heart was absolutely shattered when he got emotional. I loved his scenes with young Bae (Dylan is amazing!) and they looked so great together and then his heart was broken all over again. He’s not as bad of a guy as people want to believe! Also until we see things on the actual show, we can’t read into what we think he’ll be based on knowledge of other versions of the story. After all, they’ve turned many of the stories their heads and right now Hook seems to be more of an Anti-Hero than a villain and on the flip side, Peter Pan sure doesn’t sound like the typical PP hero version I’m familiar with. We cannot make assumptions because they could do literally anything.

And I do not believe the promo department for a second…”see how this charming swashbuckler became the greatest villain of all time” um…yeah right uh…no. Even if he were just a straight-up villain with no goodness at all – unlikely on this show – then Flook kinda invalidates villain status, at least on the level that they were suggesting. His whole arc so far up until his recent dropping of revenge has literally been “you tore the heart of the woman I loved out and crushed it front of me. She died in my arms and I want to kill you because of this after spending centuries trying to figure out to do so.” If anybody is capable of deep love, it’s Hook – not saying his methods are good and I was just as upset with him as anyone else, but that he is capable of loving deeply and his whole journey has been about love just as much as what Rumple went through to get Bae back (doing far worse things along the way) etc etc. I get why *some* RumBelle people hate him and it’s because he’s been against their guy and I completely get that (I was gutted when I liked him so much to realize he was pitting himself against Rumple and that would mean he wouldn’t make it for long – so glad he’s giving that up!), but I personally don’t understand defending Rumple and not making some allowances for Hook in the grand scheme of things. (Personally I love both characters and want to see them working together albeit strained, rather than trying to kill each other).

Likewise as much as we CSers love to hang onto the fact that the promo department used footage of CS in its Timeless Love promo and not SF, they just can’t be taken seriously because of all their past screwups. I was happy to see that they used #HookTheHero around finale time but they could not have been more wrong earlier on – if anyone is delusional with regards to the show, it’s the people running the promo department. Hopefully we can all agree about that at least!

The last few times SF has been broached to me personally, it hasn’t been in the best of light and has usually just made me more defensive of my ship and focus on the points that I’ve had to use to explain why I like it (especially when anybody who asks then turns around and says that Colin is hot and that’s what you really meant to say *eye roll* – so glad to know that some SFers think he’s hot too – cause let’s face it, he is – but that’s not a reason to ship someone. I am more than happy to enjoy his hotness without having it affect my ship and I’m kinda sick of seeing people say “well whoever ___ ends up with better be hot!” Sometimes people surprise you and the more you get to know them, the better looking they become!)

So I am sure I am just as guilty of “bashing” Neal at times as others are of bashing Hook in a shipper thread especially, but I genuinely do want Neal to find happiness and have discovered recently that a) all of my issues regarding him are connected to Emma and it has nothing to do with him as a person and b) he’s not all that bad when you take everything into account. When I was first torn, I ended up having to be so defensive of Hook because it felt like nobody else was. I do think there are many valid points that have been brought up about Neal and all it does is give me hope that I go back to being torn so that I can be happy regardless of her choice and more importantly UNDERSTAND her choice. One of my biggest gripes is that I like Emma as a character so much for who she is today and nothing I have seen *so far* suggests to me that she would be staying true to her character if she goes back to Neal *right now* – I think we can all agree everyone has a long way to go before any of these couples will be happy and it is definitely a slow journey. I worry about Emma being true to the Emma we know and again, *so far* that makes me lean heavily in Hook’s favor. It absolutely leaves the door open for the show to try to change my mind and as I’ve had in my sig for awhile now, I’m open to anything we haven’t SEEN yet and only judge it based on that, so there’s plenty of time for Neal to come out swinging and show me why he’s the right one for Emma in the longrun. So far the only time I remember rooting for him (initial run-through, I haven’t rewatched a lot of this season yet so have just been keeping up with various podcasts / forums), was when he returned to the apartment to protect Emma from Rumple. I was THRILLED in that moment because it gave me hope and that’s what it’s all about.

I’ve been begging the show for ages to give me a reason to believe that should she choose that route, and have it not be going against character and what she’s been saying all along and that it won’t feel out of obligation and will be her actual choice. I don’t think they’ll go the obligation route since Adam agreed that being together for Henry isn’t a reason, and I don’t think it would be *entirely* out of character for her to want to make it work with her first love, especially knowing that he didn’t want to let her go. I just worry based on some of how she’s been presented before that she will be contradicting herself *from what we know right now* if she doesn’t at least struggle with it a bit (and I think she will regardless) because she has had a tough stance on things like “wanting someone vs actually making a choice to be with them.” She’s accepted that Snowing gave her up for a good reason and she’s brought people she doesn’t like all that much into the fold like Regina so I completely see her having *some kind* of a good relationship with Neal in the future. I think he may have to work hard to win her over (and in the process, Neal-doubters like myself), but then that would be the show answering the need for showing why it makes sense so I’d be ok with that.

I’m hesitant to rule out anything at this point but I hold on for dear life because I do believe they’ve set things up a certain way but we really won’t know til we see it play out. It’s going to be a longggg season for everyone (though never long enough) since it’s guaranteed that Hook & Emma will be spending time together and Eddy just loves to remind everybody that Emma thinks Neal is dead – which also isn’t a reason to form a relationship. I want whatever relationship she ends up in to be realistic and worthy of such an awesome character and I have hope that regardless of WHO she chooses that it will be right for her. I just don’t want it to be “because ____ is true” when it’s from the opposite pairing. As much as I mention Neal as to why I think she’s better with Hook (because the past does affect who she is today), I don’t want anybody’s ultimate choice to be because they thought someone was dead. Basically I don’t want anyone to settle for their 2nd choice.

They put in Daniel telling Regina to find love again so that they could have characters who have lost loves find love again. It doesn’t undermine the previous love but it doesn’t close the characters off forever anyway. Also nobody to this point that has lost a love has necessarily been a *TL* – they were “truly loved” for sure or people like Rumple, Regina or Hook wouldn’t react the way they did to losing them. I just don’t think that their spiraling and being the opposite type of person from what the person who loved them is what they would have wanted, nor does it make it *TL* per se. You would think it would inspire them to honor the person more than spiraling out of control in such a dark fashion (ie: Rumple said he wanted to honor Bae by doing the right thing in saving his son, even if the boy is his undoing whereas Rumple, Regina, and Hook going after revenge in the way that they did with their first loves that we saw were all very dark and out of control). I include Rumple because I think he did truly love his family (Rumple & baby Bae feels *sniff*) but I don’t think anyone would argue Rumple & Milah were TL at all. Rumple tried to mock Hook & Milah by calling what they had twu wuv but there was no confirmation other than that they were willing to sacrifice themselves for each other and we know that Rumple does respect TL, or at least in particular Snowing – I swear he wishes he were Charming sometimes just to have that much faith and belief and trust – didn’t RC basically say he plays it like Rumple wants to be Charming?) And we know that Regina was devastated when Daniel was taken from her and it’s held her back, but he also told her to love again and while I like the idea of only having one “true” love, that would also be very depressing if that person were taken away from you.

I know I mentioned the quote about sometimes there are just people you choose for reasons that may not make sense to others but it’s just how you feel and she may very well go back to Neal because she just feels that and wants to make it work and that’s enough for her. I have faith the writers will not make it feel like “this option is bad for her but she wants it anyway so tough” but rather, they have laid the ground work for it regardless and it could definitely go either way right now for me. (I still love CS and will support and root for them for as long as I have reasons to and right now, I still feel that way but feel better about the outcome of the triangle than I did before, even if I don’t get my way…again – in which case I may watch and love future shows with the same writers but might have to just give up on shipping cause I’m right with most shows but ugh it’s so heartbreaking to be wrong! It’s why I’m so afraid to commit too much to anything right this minute having taken a step back from the episodes for a bit. I may feel differently once I do my rewatch and end up back in my CS bubble of feels, but I’m at least more open to really looking into the Neal option as well which is something I planned on trying to analyze anyway to see what was really there. Netflix needs to the get the episodes so I can screenshot and have fun with it rather than FFing on the dvr >.<). I do agree with the RumBelle thing as I had completely forgotten he couldn’t feel that she was alive. He didn’t believe himself worthy and was vulnerable to Regina’s comments for sure. I don’t think that Emma has the same doubts, especially since I think she became vindicated in her feelings but she also doesn’t expect anything good to happen to her either so I could see that impairing that feeling, whereas Charming always has faith. She was certainly looking at it as “he is injured and there’s no hospital on the other side” so to her it’s just a matter of time and she believes he’s gone. (She also NEVER thinks of her magic unless somebody points it out to her or it’s last second panic – I’m surprised she never thought to try to do anything in that moment, especially with how emotional she was getting. Yes she was distracted emotionally and it takes her awhile to jump to that conclusion, but she usually manages to if it’s truly the last second and instead she let him go. Not sure what her magic really entails just yet, I think we’ll get more of that in S3, so not sure if she could have done much of anything / what would have happened if nobody went through the portal. IE: would it have kept getting bigger until it sucked somebody in?) I would like to argue the point about what Neal may or may not have known/been expecting. The impression I’ve gotten from the 2 times we’ve seen Neal & August interact is that when the curse is broken, August will let Neal know (which he did, including after a reminder immediately before heading to SB) but nowhere did I get the impression that August was going to tell Emma everything and that SHE would go after HIM. Now, I get why that’s a fun headcanon and I’m not ruling it out. I’m just saying that I personally never got the impression that just because the curse was broken that she would know absolutely everything. I don’t recall August promising him that.

I see why Neal may think that, in which case he should have waited a tiny bit longer after the curse broke before starting something with someone else if he was waiting to see (August went to see him right before he went to SB and Tamara “bumped into” him immediately after, so…if he was waiting/hoping to see what her reaction was, he failed miserably at doing that since he started something with Tamara before August even got to SB in the first place, much less may or may not have said anything to Neal. In that case I kinda *really* hope he wasn’t planning on doing that because what if Emma had found out the truth from August and went to find him, only to find him with Tamara? It was bad enough she spent 2 years in Tallahassee and they’re both hurting over all of it right now but that would have been BRUTAL. I really think all August told him was that he’d let him know when he could go and find Emma. (I can’t remember if he JUST said the postcard or if he said you can go find her after it’s over, does anybody have the quotes from those 2 interactions?)

Neal’s reaction to everything in Manhattan was confusing to me, though I agree that he had a lot going on in his head (similar to what JMO was talking about at PaleyFest with a million emotions having to play out on her face in 3 seconds because of all the new information she was getting). It was a great episode but I haven’t seen it in awhile so someone can maybe clear that up a bit. I know he was happy to see her when he realized who it was, I can’t remember if he ever knew/suspected why someone was chasing him. He seemed determined to get away, was happy when he saw it was her but I still didn’t get the impression he thought she was supposed to be looking for him. Otherwise he would have answered the door like a normal person I would think. His attitude completely shifted when he saw it was her and was genuinely shocked to hear his dad was in NY as well. I suppose he was on the run from goodness knows what this time, but I thought / hoped he had gotten his life together, especially since he wanted to quit that lifestyle years ago as well as how nicely he was dressed in the premiere. He very well could have been on the run from someone random but again, he didn’t even answer the buzzer to find out if it might be her before running out the fire escape so I can’t really grasp the idea *right now* that he ever expected her to show up or even had the hopes that she might. August sent a dove so while the dove may have a magical way of finding someone specific, but it’s not like August was like “oh by the way, here’s Neal’s address – I just sent him a postcard.”

So I’m not sure what Neal DID know or expect to happen once the curse was broken. Some have pointed out that it looks like Bae moved after getting the postcard (personally I think they just changed the apartment a LOT, if they were trying to show he moved because he got scared and ran again they certainly didn’t make it obvious, at least not on initial watch), but I don’t think that he was waiting around for Emma to show up at all post-curse. In fact, I think he was super-surprised to see her (pleased, but surprised – at that point he *may* have been thinking that August told her everything since she was in NY as well as chasing him and that added to his shock and subsequent anger at her bringing Rumple too, but I don’t believe that he was *expecting* her to show up at all post curse – not because he didn’t believe that she would, but because he never had reason to think so because August never said he’d send Emma to find him, he said he’d send a postcard to him when it was safe to go after her).

I also agree that no matter what I want all 3 to get along someday. There’s so much potential in all the possible friendships & romantic relationships alike in that triangle and ultimately they all need to be there for Henry.

I will also agree that *at this moment* Neal would have a harder time being just friends with Emma (and yes it would be brutal for him if he fights hard to get back specifically to her and finds her with the pirate who he blames for his family turning out the way it did on top of that). I was encouraged by the MRJ interview not long ago where he said Neal’s focus is finding family. I’d like to think that since he told Emma to let him go for Henry’s sake that his focus is getting back to Henry first and foremost. I’m sure in the back of his mind he’ll be trying to get back to Emma too…I just want his focus to be on Henry and anything else is a bonus. He seems intent on making up for the mistakes their parents made and that will endear him to Emma and the audience as well. I just don’t want them to show this epic quest to get back to Emma only to have her say it was closure for her and have him be stomped on again, nor do I think that even if that’s what happens she has any obligation to go back. As I said previously I don’t read the ILYs as being “well we’re together now so if you do happen to make it out alive even though we pretty much just agreed that you’ll probably die, come and find me and I’ll be single.” So I’d rather they show him as a father fighting to get back to his son first and foremost.

I think he’ll be upset with them for being even friends which is what I expect them to be by the time they are reunited with Neal. I honestly DON’T want a full-fledged CS by the time Neal gets back unless Emma is prepared to say this is my choice and I’m sorry because then that reeks of “well you were dead and I’ve moved on” and implies that she was only with Hook because Neal was “dead” and frankly that’s not fair to anyone.

I agree that Hook may feel like he needs to step back out of respect for all of them. Emma needs to come to grips with her feelings for everyone and he’s had more time to adjust to Milah being gone and not an option and is finally moving forward from that. He knows what it feels like though and Emma is getting another chance after thinking Neal was dead so I expect him to give it to her. It’ll be interesting to see how she reacts to that, especially since most people in her life have manipulated her and she’ll finally get to choose, but for everyone’s happiness and sanity, they all need to sort out their issues before a choice can come into play.

I don’t see Emma as being wishy-washy and I certainly don’t want her to string them along. If anything I think she’ll push it to the backburner while doing other stuff and then something may happen that forces her to admit who she actually is in love with right now.

I think part of the thought process Hook was working through specifically in the diner scene is the fact that the guy who broke Emma to the point where she didn’t trust him (knowing that she wanted to since she said it herself) is the same kid he once tried to be family to. He’s definitely attracted to Emma and as you said, admires her feisty attitude and has always been impressed with her / complimenting her. The ultimate compliment he could give her was that she would make a good pirate. So I do think he will struggle knowing that the guy in her past is one he has a connection to as well. He may even blame himself for not fighting harder to get Bae to change his mind back then or he never would have been there to hurt Emma (as he doesn’t know all the details surrounding that).

I agree that he’ll question how deep his feelings go but based on what we’ve seen, he’s a pretty tough nut to crack and was deeply in love with Milah to the point that he’s spent centuries focused on revenge which he is just now walking away from and Emma is a huge part of that, just like her influence is helping him see the bigger picture. They’re both helping each other trust again and open up – I think he’s been “Hook” for far too long and in Emma’s presence is the first we’ve seen of “Killian Jones” and I hope that continues.

So we’ll have to see how long they are away from Neal (and NL time is different so they might be gone a few days his time and goodness knows how long in theirs – something he should understand even if he doesn’t like it), and how close of a bond they form in that time. Again I don’t think it’ll be romantic off the bat and I think Hook will let Emma figure things out but he could easily fall for her without pursuing it because he’s giving her time and still be gutted / have a hard time being around them with Henry when they’re all reunited. Just because he won’t act on it early on since he knows she’s in pain doesn’t mean he won’t potentially feel something and just be waiting for her to seem ready, only to have to deal with all of these emotions all over again when Neal shows up. He may convince himself it’s OK for now because Neal is “dead” and there’s nothing he can do about it and Emma deserves to be happy and so does he, but goodness only knows what will happen when Neal gets back.

I absolutely love Hook’s quote and I am a little torn on what to think about it because I do think he will be FAR more sympathetic to SF than Neal will ever be to CS (even as a friendship). Hook will want Bae to be happy and I don’t think he’ll want to inflict more pain on him but I also don’t see him being a doormat, especially if Neal tries to control Emma in any way. By control I mostly mean get mad at Emma for wanting Hook in her life or standing up for him for saving Henry. (I fully expect that confrontation and I see Hook really trying as he genuinely did want to give up his revenge for Bae and Neal just having none of it for the time being). I think Hook will back up and let Emma decide, but Neal may force his hand into feeling the need to get defensive too. I’d like him to fight as far as showing that he wants it too, but to also fight for it to be Emma’s choice, and be understanding of the entire situation. One of the things I love about David from when he was initially in the triangle was offering MM a choice and just saying “If you choose this, if you choose us, you know where I’ll be” – he wasn’t pressuring her into it, he was making it about her and her choice and then taking a step back. (Yes I realize everything went downhill after that, but this was when he was close to being Charming as possible before the David memories over and I loved that moment because it was hopeful but not pushy and I would like something similar of Hook, even if Emma chooses differently.)

I think that’s the only way to combine Hook’s mixed emotions regarding both Emma & Bae, as well as whatever his own are by that point. I think he’d step back for sure if he’s not completely in love with her, but he may be by that point and just waiting for her to be ready. Likewise they could all be the best of friends and as you said Phee, maybe he’d meet someone like Ariel. We just don’t know yet and right now we’re only guessing based on our own interpretations of what has to happen.

As for briefly touching on the other potential relationships, I’ve posted in the Hookriel thread before & go back and forth on it because they’d have to connect Eric / have her be aged up / see how they do once they interact but I do have it as a backup for now. I think we have similar issues regarding anybody being paired with Regina *at this moment* because she does have a long way to go. As much as Hook is introspective right now and Regina is trying to be better, we’ve been through this a few times with Regina so I’m hesitant to say they’d do anything but help each other spiral. It’s one of the reasons I like the idea of her with Neal because he is such a good guy who has been equally if not moreso been beaten down (and by some of the same people) but chooses not to go after revenge. He’s always reminded me of Daniel and she definitely needs more of that type. Other than *potentially* Neal, I haven’t seen anybody I would deem as a potential love interest for Regina and likewise, other than Emma I haven’t seen anything to base a relationship with Hook on with anyone either, though the same goes for Neal other than *potentially* Regina. We are getting new characters once in awhile and they all have a long way to go as people first anyway so things may change. I’m inclined to think that in some way, Neal, Regina, and Hook will all wind up being a part of the twisted family in more ways than just being connected to Henry and that the pairings between the 4 of them will happen. Can I get on board with HQ right now? Not remotely. Could it happen someday? Maybe. Will I like it more when people aren’t cramming it down my throat as simply a way to get Hook out of the way so SF can happen? ABSOLUTELY.

I definitely do not want them to have to find a place for Hook to fit in and have it feel smushed. Emma offered him a chance to be a part of something which sounds like a general invite and I know the writers/producers love him, but I fear that if they don’t set him up with someone and have it be integral somehow (could be Emma, Ariel may be important – I hope she’s not a 1-shot deal, somebody else could step forward, who knows), that he will be backburnered and while that would make some people happy, I would hate to see it happen. It’s one of the extra perks (not why I think it will or has to happen but would make me happy because of it) reasons why I lean toward CS because Neal is guaranteed a spot either way. He has other connections as does Regina that are super important and no matter what, will always have to be a part of Emma’s & Henry’s lives. I’d like to think that should the SF family reunite that Hook will still be around and a part of things, but with so much bad blood and no real reason to be there I do fear for the character sometimes. (Again, I don’t really buy into the idea *currently* that Bae ever really got much of a chance to be a son to Hook and at this stage of the game, he has his father back so therefore doesn’t really need Hook in that capacity now either).

I’ll agree that it would help Hook grow as a person if he is helping out to honor Bae, but again he went to help out originally (before Charming double-crossed him – thus proving to Hook everything he already believed) too which had nothing to do with him. It does show that he was willing to try though which is a good step for everyone regardless. I have hope for 99% of the characters to either have a moment of redemption before they die or to do a 180 and find happiness and I consider Hook to be included in that latter category at this point, especially since they’ve made him a regular and added him to the dvd cover (heck, Henry isn’t even on those). I expect MRJ to be added to it next year since he was technically only recurring this year – Bae is very important whether he ends up with someone I want him to or not).

RG I completely agree – can’t stand the constant bashing of a character and wanting them dead or gone, much less mocking people who like them or parading it in their faces that they were wrong and won’t get what they want. I think part of the reason I tuned out of SF discussions for the most part was because I got so sick of the celebrating in mean ways. Absolutely be happy when you get a moment like in SSTTR, but laughing at CSers and saying “haha CS is dead” is just mean. I certainly wasn’t celebrating the idea of Neal being dead. We’re all Oncers and as we’ve proven here, we can get along and agree to disagree! We can try our best to explain what we see and where we’re coming from, but at the end of the day everyone will interpret things differently and we’ll have to wait and see what the show decides to actually you know, show us! (I’d really like to think that by the end of all things, it will become very obvious why Emma makes whatever choice she makes and that a cheesy montage isn’t needed to show that it was set up there from the beginning. Likewise I think that BOTH potential ships have lots of setup involved along the way and someday on a rewatch these things will become far more obvious for whoever doubts the ship that winds up happening).

I fully admit there are many things that CS holds onto that may or may not mean anything, and I’m sure the same is true of SF since we all see things differently. Will I go through and find all the little things I personally think set up my ship since I don’t think it’s just one or two little things? Absolutely. Will absolutely ALL of them be intentional and meant to make me believe in it? Probably not. I am proven wrong plenty of times and happy to nix various arguments along the way when that argument proves to be invalid. We just don’t know for sure yet and the little things add up over time. I’m sure the same is absolutely true of every ship out there. I may not have bothered to ship Emma with anyone in S1 (except mildly Graham but certainly not hardcore) but I saw why others liked the *potential* story arcs for each and as I’m sure I said somewhere, last season before we knew anything *for sure* about Henry’s dad since Emma’s comments were obviously coming from a place of being hurt and we didn’t know the reasons, I actually really really liked the *idea* of SF so it’s not impossible for me to learn to love it again if needbe, I just prefer CS right now and have since their introduction. I didn’t get the same gut punch for SF when we finally met Neal, that’s all. To each their own!

Sometimes opinions change when we get more information or are presented with another option we find equally or more compelling on a personal level, but that doesn’t mean it can’t swing back. I haven’t seen anything in S2 that made me give up CS or make me feel compelled to 100% root for SF, but that doesn’t mean it’s not impossible to make us love or at least tolerate whatever happens later on.

I’ve been saying all season that it’s too early to call endgame for Emma because she is the one main character who isn’t Disney-canon – we didn’t grow up knowing who she was meant to be with. We knew going into triangles like Snowing/Abigail & MAP who had to end up with who and they proved those early! We SAW Snowing’s TLK in the pilot, we SAW Philora’s TLK in their first intro at the start of S2. We didn’t see anything that proved it with Emma because her relationship with Neal started out in a world without magic and if it’s not Neal but Hook, then it hasn’t progressed to that level yet. We just don’t know!

I will say this regarding Lost – some of the people I hated (and I mean HATED) at the start grew to be people I got very emotional over by the end. One couple that was together at the start I was sure were awful for one another and thought they were leading toward her leaving to be with someone else a little bit of the way through – and then the married couple were great together & the guys ended up being best friends! Was a total curveball for me because I thought they were predictably going down a certain path so you never can tell. That couple I hated became one of my favorite storylines but it took time. (Whereas I still didn’t get my main ship and had to learn to like the other ship for the guy I really wanted to have be happy – I’m still learning to tolerate it but I find things about it that I like and hold onto and for the rest, there’s always the memories).

I put a lot of emphasis on camera shots where others say it’s just who was standing there at the time or what made for a good lasting image to do whatever with. We all put our personal filters into everything and as long as we’re honest about that, we’re able to have discussions like these. For myself, the season was book-ended by seeing Neal (the one who didn’t come back) and Hook (the one who did). Likewise, looking at the language Neal’s is about the past, and Hook’s is looking to the future. I also look at some of the wording along the way that they chose to use with Hook with things like “We want the same things” and “Everything we need is right in front of us” (as he walks right in front of her) but those also work WITHIN THE SCENE and context is important.

Do I love the idea that Emma sat by Hook’s bedside til he woke up? Of course. She was protecting him from Rumple but she’s likely to want to protect everyone anyways (though she didn’t sit by Greg’s bedside, just saying). Did she say “I’d pick you”? Yes (and while I would love to cheer about that just as the two lines previously mentioned, context is everything and this context wasn’t so good *shakes head*. Do I count them as *possible* things worded in such a way that someday we’ll look back and see the language was there indicating it all along? Of course I do, because if I didn’t believe it and see things that way, there would be no point in shipping my heart out and ruining my enjoyment of the show when people insist on destroying a ship I love. Can I say it’s not purely coincidence because things they needed were literally in front of them or the fact that they did want the same things right that moment because they wanted to get to SB? Sadly I can’t. Nobody but H&K can definitively say it meant anything or meant nothing.

I love the wording, as a writer myself (doubt anybody ever would have guessed THAT *shakes fist at the character limit problem & hides*) I am all about the wording (though I should really reread & edit my posts more than I do) and reading between the lines – one of the reasons I love Rumple & his technicalities in contracts – but at the end of the day, we also know that some of the lines have been SERIOUSLY screwed up because they seem to contradict things we know or mess with the t-word etc. It is all about the context.)

And now onto part 2…(now I see the trouble KFChimera was having using all the quotes!)

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[MysteryKat25]

@HappyEndings wrote:

This is what I think will happen to Tamara/Greg they find out who they are working for Tamara tries the taser thing and gets killed. Greg, will man up and try to protect Henry and gets killed trying to help him.

I’d be ok with that. It would redeem GregOwen a little bit. I don’t see either being thrilled when they find out who they’re working for, since they’ve been so anti-magic and all. So hopefully they’ll have a change of heart but I still don’t particularly want them hanging around either so sacrificing to save Henry would suffice. We need answers on the taser too so hopefully that happens fast as well.

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[MysteryKat25]

Welcome to the club Polythenepam!

Please do not worry about rambling! I can’t ever ever criticize you for that as I am very guilty myself as I’m sure you have noticed in reading the entire way through this thread! That’s dedication!

Wow just thinking of that wave of emotion, seeing the ups and downs of the CS fandom from the very beginning on is a rollercoaster of emotions. I commend you for putting up with us long enough to get this far!

I’ll go ahead & put this disclaimer at top because now *I* have rambled but I’ve been dissecting SF for days so it’s nice to be back with my CS people! (Please don’t feel the need to respond to each and every little thing I said, I’m just overly excited to be surrounded by people who strongly believe in Hook and that he has just as much of a chance with Emma if not moreso!) I know I ramble on a bit but hopefully somewhere in here is something useful for somebody that feels the same way I do – we need them to start filming already and go to CC so we have new stuff to work with! Less than a month!

1. I agree with most of what you said and am so happy to see more on board! I’m at times torn and I get the appeal of both sides of the triangle but I love love love CS and I will be absolutely gutted if they have set up THIS much stuff just to make Emma go back to Neal. If they wanted us to root for him, they shouldn’t have put in such an awesome other choice. Likewise I was a bit annoyed that they made him look like the fall guy so that we’d have to feel sorry for him getting his heart broken because of Hook again, but with more time hopefully he will come to realize that Hook is good for Emma too and respect whatever HER choice is in the end (please be Hook!).

2. As for the comment about why Hook came back – I don’t think it’s just shipper goggles I really don’t. I think it was BOTH Emma & Bae that brought him back. To some who don’t understand the significance of the bean as a symbol of Hook & Emma, it’s just Hook tossing the bean over in his hand debating whether to use it or not until he sees the scratchmarks which remind him of Bae. But let us not forget that the bean is CS’s thing. He literally compared a bean to Emma as being magical and full of hope before it was shriveled up and he was “done with” her (yeah Hook, real convincing haha). That bean was the one he brought back to life to travel to SB with. He looked at the bean AND the scratchmarks and was likely replaying her words over and over in his head. She offered him the same thing he once offered Bae. He knows what it feels like to offer that and be turned down. He literally was being asked to have everything he wanted and for a long time, basically after Bae turned him down, that part of him was sealed off. EMMA reminded him of the person he wanted to be. Colin even said on twitter that it was both things that made him turn around. I don’t think Hook would have turned around to honor a guy he just found out was dead by helping a town full of people who hated him and had betrayed him on more than one occasion.

Emma’s speech to him and acknowledging their connection got to him. By the time he found out about Neal he had already handed her the empty pouch (which she never even THOUGHT to check, meaning she TRUSTED him, hence how upset she was and how happy she was when he came back – we saw that look on the dock. They purposely showed us her reaction even though she played it off when he got there). When he arrived he focused on HER (not that he wasn’t doing that the entire episode *thud*) and when he made the statement about needing reminding that he could care he was looking directly at her and gave it back as a sign of trust. He was showing that he was in and she accepted it from him (this time thankfully the hands brushing did not = locking someone up!). She didn’t have to give the bean back to him to use for the portal either. She handed it back over and trusted him to do the most important thing in the world: take them to NL to save her son. She could have thought “NL” and thrown the bean herself but she showed trust in him, just like he had in her.

The bean is THEIR symbol and handing it back and forth was very symbolic. Part of him coming back was remembering Bae / remembering the last time he truly let himself believe he had a chance to let go of the revenge and be happy and a part of something, but Emma played just as much of if not a bigger part in getting him to turn around.

Let’s face it: Hook can hold a grudge. Is he ever upset with Emma (when Cora isn’t around pulling the strings?) Emma has betrayed him yet he still says “Hey beautiful” and flirts with her when he’s in extreme pain the next time he sees her. Charming punched him (which by the way was basically the guys saying “I’ve punched you, you’ve punched me, we’re even”) and Hook went out of his way to stop Charming from running after the people with guns to make sure that he stayed alive – why should he care about Charming AT ALL other than that it would hurt Emma if anything happened to him.

Sure Hook has kicked the fishguy into the water so he wouldn’t die, and he made sure to give Aurora’s heart back (which he never wanted to take in the first place but got desperate because Cora wanted to kill him, especially since she knew he would chose Emma), but he was perfectly ok with the idea of Regina dying saying something along the lines of “if she wants to die for us then I say we let her” – he knew that Regina dying wouldn’t affect Emma as much but if anything happened to Charming, especially when Hook was supposed to have his back, Emma might never forgive him.

At the meeting Emma was originally ok with the plan of Regina sacrificing herself too. Hook *knew* she didn’t have a problem with that originally and it wasn’t until after Snow built her case that Emma changed her mind. That’s why he waited to ask Emma what the real reason was because he knew there was more to it (they are such open books to each other, I love it!) I also really loved this scene just for the CS feels in general (and could they have been more obvious about wanting to make sure that Charming saw Emma fighting for Hook? She JUMPED IN FRONT of Charming to defend Hook from getting beaten up (for the millionth time – the guy is still sore and he’s off fighting to save everyone!) and then Charming stood there, intently watching Emma & Hook.

You know what I really love? Charming felt the need to step in and make sure that Emma was ok when she was left alone in Gold’s shop with Neal (who he has NEVER confronted by the way, grr), yet he was perfectly fine to walk away and usher everyone outside after Emma talked to Hook in the diner and never felt the need to ask her if she needed him to stay. Sure he looked a little…fatherly? but he lets Emma be Emma and only jumps in when he feels like it. If anything I think that Charming & Hook have started bonding & will understand each other, and Charming’s never really tried to do that with Neal. It’s almost like they’re screaming at us to see that Charming & Snow are skeptical because they see Emma ” starting to look at Hook the wrong way” (JMO I adore you “starts?!?” PaleyFest reference anyone? I mean, she even wanted to know when Charming was going to punch Neal out for sending her to jail. I think she’s on our side guys! :D)

3. H&K are fond of teasing us that’s for sure, but the fact that they have to keep defending Neal and reminding us that he did love her and that he’s not such a bad guy means that that isn’t getting across so somewhere, there are lots of people like us who does see way more in CS than in SF.

As Kitsis said, “In all life, there are the people that are right for you and there are the people that are wrong for you, and then there are the people that you just choose. Emma is going to face all those things. We’ll see what happens.” Emma is big on choice and a lot of the conversations we saw with her in S1 really exemplified this to me, especially her comment to MM in 1×06 about the difference between saying you want someone and actually making a choice to be with them. Very telling of her as a character.

4. I’m with you on the not celebrating just yet. I see tons of stuff that gives me reason to hope, but I’m also very afraid that we’re setting ourselves up for disappointment too. I get the appeal of the other option (and i adore young Bae, Dylan is amazing!), and the storyline that goes with it, and Emma has forgiven others in the past too, but she’s felt a connection to Hook since before Neal came back into her life. She may be able to forget and move past it and have him in her life for Henry’s sake, but I think / hope that the portal scene was closure on that chapter in the past and that ultimately she chooses to move forward instead of revert back. She’s an awesome person as she is now and Hook appreciates her for the woman that she is.

I will be so gutted if they set him up to fall for her and he gets his heart broken again! I don’t want Neal to get hurt either but I feel like he can at least say he set himself up for it and it’ll just reinforce his original doubts because he didn’t believe in them enough. I felt like Emma was always fighting for that relationship, he was too afraid to and never believed it was possible or he never would have tried to leave her the first time to go off to Canada alone. (I do believe they had real feelings for each other, I just agree with MM’s quote about if people are meant to be they find a way to make it happen – Charming always fights to get back to Snow, Neal knew where Emma was and didn’t – yes Emma found her way back into his life but completely by accident. She gave up searching after her 2 years in Tallahassee and bigger circumstances aside, she’s put in plenty of time and heartache already. To go back to it too quickly would undermine her character).

With the wording and the things we know about her and the camera shots and constant ship stuff (seriously, on my next rewatch I am getting screenshots of every pirate doll, ship’s wheel, ship painting, ship model, and anything remotely piratey ever for Emma because it is ALL there and has been from the pilot!). Even the original sketch they released in the magazine has her in a piratey outfit. The fact that they were even considering changing who Henry’s father was because the audience guessed it so quickly makes me question if they ever had any intention of actually making them endgame. I’m sure they debated it, but there was SUCH a strong reaction from the writers / producers / people on set to Hook’s first few episodes (and really, who can blame them?) that I feel like things may have changed in his favor. After all he was a character they wanted in Season 1 as well, so they always wanted him to play a part. I think he just blew them away and as Jane said recently in an interview, all the pairings “make sense” and have potential. (I know she’s a CS shipper, love the twitter quotes where she’s agreeing with people who basically say you’d have to be blind not to sense something going on with CS after Tallahassee).

5. So I am cautiously optimistic but still afraid at times. I want to be open to and love whatever they throw at us as endgame but I’m also nervous that they’re setting it up for CS to get close while Neal is out of the picture. I don’t want to get into Lost stuff right now but I can parallel it to something good in there and something not so good so I’m truly afraid of what they’ll choose. I hope they see what a big reaction they’re getting to CS and I’m pretty sure they said they know who her endgame will be already which leads me to believe that they’re either cruel or are deliberately planting all of the CS stuff at this point cause the finale SCREAMED CS to me.

I know a lot don’t want to see it yet and are hung up on Hook being out for himself and flirting and using innuendos etc, but he is himself when he is with Emma and I really want him to show more people that in NL. What I would love is for Charming to have to stick up for him after watching him with Emma (headcanon is that he will risk his life /save Emma and that Charming will be closely watching a lot of the time – like he’s not already! lol – and have to admit and probably argue with Snow that it’s Emma’s choice and he’s not that bad after all).

If anybody can understand a guy who would do anything and love as deeply as Hook does it’ll be Charming. I want more of their budding bromance (which of course starts by caring about Emma) and I think Snow will be the one to fight things more (even though she’s been watching them like a hawk from the start). Charming knows what it’s like to be in a triangle that splits you between obligation/pressure & who you’re really drawn to present day regardless of the past / supposed past. He was in that position as David being told he was supposed to remember being in love with Kathryn and yes that wasn’t actually real love but it felt that way to her and he felt like he was supposed to remember that life but was always drawn to his heart – MM.

6. One thing somebody pointed out yesterday was that Charming never doubted that Snow was ok. He kept reminding Henry of it because he said he could “feel it” and was so sure. He never doubted. Just like he never doubted that 28 years apart (1 remembering and raising Emma, the other “frozen in time”) would change their love at all. I think when presented with what actually happened he’ll be the first to understand why Emma chooses Hook. If anything, Neal had a shorter time table and knew where to go when to argue his case and beg for forgiveness. He was more in control of circumstances than Charming ever was (he had to just sit and wait for Emma to find them and break the curse).

On the flip side, he should also understand that even though he doesn’t appreciate the methods, Hook has been trying to avenge the woman he loved for centuries. If that ever comes out into more public knowledge, ie: somebody sees the tattoo and asks about it, which I fully expect to be Charming since I don’t think he bought the “out for himself” facade when they were working together briefly, Charming will be the one to understand it. Can’t you just picture Hook (trying for Emma’s sake) to open up a bit more and mentioning why he hates Rumple so much and asking Charming what he wouldn’t do to anyone who hurts Snow? Colin would kill that for sure, just like he did in the scene with Bae. He’s spent every moment for centuries trying to avenge the woman he loved – Charming should understand that.

7. I really want Charming & Hook to bind while looking for Emma and Hook being sure that she’s ok because he can feel it and then having Charming realize that Hook’s in love with his little girl. The icing on the cake would be him having to admit to Snow that they may not like it but it’s Emma’s choice and if Hook loves her half as much as he ever loved Milah, she’ll be safe. I think the problem really will be Snow who is in no place to talk given her affair as MM. She knows that sometimes it doesn’t matter what the rest of the world thinks, you can’t help who you’re drawn to and love.

On the bright side I think they really enjoyed putting these two together (and giving them nicknames while filming) so I hope that means they’ll want to make them work together in the future. I want to see Snowing & CaptainSwan working side by side and trusting each other!

8. I hope that in NL Snow & Charming both see how good Hook can be for Emma and cut him some slack, even if nothing romantic actually starts but they become close. Emma opens up SO much more to Hook than she does with anybody else and I want that to be acknowledged. It’ll be bad enough when Neal is reunited with them all and it gets super awkward but I don’t want them instantly jumping to Neal’s side when Snow heard all the bad stuff as MM and knows that he sent Emma to jail. They haven’t heard the reasons yet, they haven’t even tried to find out what his deal is, he was just *there.*

Actually the fact that they do worry about Hook so much is actually positive for CS. MM saw and correctly guessed how Emma felt about Graham. Snow & Charming are often seen in frame watching Emma with Hook and they never seem to bother with Neal. I can see them wanting to push her in that direction for Henry, although Snow basically told Emma to stop acting jealous so she doesn’t get Henry’s hopes up, so as long as she doesn’t get Henry’s hopes up maybe Snow won’t be so bad?

9. I do like the idea that they somehow find Neal earlier on so that he’s a part of the action too. They’re going to have to wrap up MAP’s storyline pretty fast because the actresses are on other shows and Neal is an important part of things + he has the knowledge of NL as well.

My headcanon so far has been that they’ll find Henry, leave NL but go to the EF (to escape) while they try to find a way back to SB and that while they’re showing Henry around Snowing’s castle, they’ll come across Neal. I do like the idea of him in NL though. (Definitely looking forward to more of young Bae’s story there, I want to explore NL darnit! and I <3 young Bae). It would also be nice to see him actually fighting for his family and being a part of rescuing Henry but I feel like it may make that ship a little too full of drama (it's gonna have plenty as is!)

10. I don’t want either guy hurt I really don’t but I love Hook and the man seriously only has eyes for Emma. Neal has shown that he is fine at least trying to move on and having a working relationship with Emma as part of Henry’s family. Also I think with all the hatred the writers have gotten over the bio-family vs adoptive one, it would just solidify in some people’s minds that bio-families *eye roll* are more important than the highly dysfunctional yet tight-knit group Henry has.

Emma is very much influenced by the real world and I do want her to have a fairytale-esque romance but I don’t see why that *has* to be with her child’s father. I just want them to all sort their issues out and get along for Henry and for whoever is left to find his happiness as well. If it’s Hook then they better bring in somebody awesome cause he only has eyes for Emma. If it’s Neal I could seriously see him working with Regina and I’m hoping that’s why it’s taken soooo long to get them any interaction because I think they would definitely bond over a LOT of things but that he needs to work on his issues with Emma before he tries to move on again to make it real and maybe that’s why they’ve kept them apart so far *fingers crossed* – they’ve both been broken by Rumple and she did raise his son. Plus he reminds me of Daniel and they’d be good together, whereas HQ would be toxic and all revengey. So far the TL couples have balanced each other out nicely and helped lean toward goodness instead of darkness. If they ruin Hook I will be livid, the man can love DEEPLY and him crying gets me emotional. I don’t want him to stay broken or go off the deep end! I love him so much! Plus wouldn’t it be absolutely hilarious if Rumple becomes Regina’s father-in-law? It would also tie her in even closer to Henry’s life which would appease her and make her feel a lot less skeptical about it all working because she’s always so afraid that someone will take Henry that she makes the first (and stupid) move and wrecks any progress. I think Neal could help her settle down with all of that anyway, as they have a lot in common, and then on top of that she’d be less paranoid about her relationship with Henry.

I really hope that Henry (unlike Jared, grr) is able to see that Hook brings out the good in Emma and vice versa. He’s an observant kid and I think he’ll see a change in Hook once he opens up a bit thanks to Emma. How could Henry NOT love hanging out with a pirate?? I worry once Neal is back in the picture, but the kid wasn’t throwing tantrums about Tamara so he better be nice if Emma chooses Hook. I want them all to be happy but unless I’m totally misunderstanding the entire point of the show – it’s not about Henry’s happy ending, or Rumple’s, it’s about alllll the characters and their happy endings. Emma shouldn’t have to be with Neal just to appease Henry – the kid wants both Emma and Regina in his life and has shown that time and time again, so he should be open to accepting any and all family that he gets! I genuinely think whoever is left out will find love and they’ll be added to the family too and it’ll be one huge dysfunctional unit that bicker amongst themselves but band together against the world.

11. I hope they’re not just playing with us because then that basically treats us like other ships that don’t have a shot at all. They don’t even discount SQ people when they have never remotely promoted such a relationship in any interview, not to mention that both women have been involved with MEN. Yet when Emma & her love life is mentioned, or Hook’s 2nd chance, or anything remotely relating to one of the 2 characters, the other seems to naturally enter the conversation. There have been TOO many teases that are huge to count us as delusional, but I also hope it’s not setting us up for heartache.

They keep reminding us that it’s not set in stone yet and that Emma does have genuine feelings for Neal, but they never promote that. It’s just thrown in to remind us that she has things she needs to deal with just as much as Hook needs to move beyond Milah. I will think it exceptionally cruel if they build it up that much and then they’re just like welllll you were all so distracted by Hook & CS that we got one by you finally. I don’t want to be teased to be distracted, I want to have genuine hope in what I see on screen and what I see on screen so far leads me to ship CS. It may not be popular in certain places, but we are a legit fandom and we have reasons that consist of more than “hotness” and “not forgiving Neal when everyone else has done far worse things than throw someone in jail.” We are so much more than that!

I would hate for them to hype it but not mean anything by it. They don’t “rule out” SQ but they don’t hype it either. They downplayed WoodenSwan pretty quickly and reduced them to more of a “brother/sister” dynamic long before they de-aged him. They have been heavily teasing CS and I would like to think it’s not just “hey look, there’s a triangle, please watch!” especially since most people HATE triangles with a passion.

12. It is absolutely annoying to get into shipper debates and I wish this triangle was as cut and dried as all the others have been on the show but we’re seeing Emma’s love story play out in real time and we just have to have faith and hope we’re right. Many people tune out for awhile til they know how a triangle in a show will play out so that they don’t get invested in the wrong side of things. It is gutting to be attacked for having a different opinion and having just as much faith in your ship as they do in theirs but because of sheer numbers get hate for it. I’ve seen CS doing very well in polls and such, just not around here. But we do exist, we are vocal about it, and somebody somewhere knows it’s a real thing because the creators and writers and promo departments have been teasing the heck out of it.

13. Speaking of promo departments…as much as I hate them cause they’re idiotic usually, I am so glad they went from that first introduction of Hook being the greatest villain of all time to now #HookTheHero lol. Also back over winter hiatus, aka: after Tallahassee aired, Hook & Emma were included in the Timeless Love promo for the show. It doesn’t mean anything concrete but you would think if the people in the promo department had access to footage from Tallahassee and looked at that they would have said hmm, which one of these couples looks more timeless to you, and then put it in. Every other couple they used was an established couple but they used CS. (I hate the promo department and I take them with a grain of salt because I don’t think they have a clue what they’re doing, but for once I think they got it right and saw the same things we have).

And now back to your regularly schedule CS love-fest. *passes out cookies*

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[MysteryKat25]

I’ve often wondered and I know we had a thread around here somewhere about Rumple having gone to NL at some point while Bae was there. I think it will relate to the squid ink because we know Mermaid Lagoon exists in NL and he told Henry that only mermaids and himself could get squid ink (and he clearly had some to write “Emma” over and over again in the jail cell).

It would make sense that something happened between when we saw Bae arriving there and still being upset that his dad let him go, and present day when he clearly was on the run from him. I agree that it goes back to that comment from Rumple to Henry that makes me think they’ve crossed paths before, and a close encounter in NL would make sense. Perhaps he went there without realizing that Bae was there, did something that showed Bae he never changed (maybe without knowing that Bae was nearby) and then that’s what caused Bae to finally leave NL, change his name etc etc and Rumple was left with his original plan of gathering the things necessary to make the curse and get someone to enact it.

Anything is possible but that line definitely stuck out to me as well. It certainly hints that this isn’t the first time he’s almost found Bae.

I’m definitely curious to see what Rumple’s connection to PP is as I think it will answer some of why Henry is the boy he’s looking for (possibly to have something to do with Rumple’s undoing?) and the fact that Rumple is clearly afraid of him makes him a very interesting character right off the bat. Looking forward to seeing who they cast for sure.

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[MysteryKat25]

@PriceofMagic wrote:

I think they are definitely going for an older Pan, especially if he is going to have “significant” scenes with Rumple. Also if Rumple fears Pan then they need an actor to make it seem like Rumple’s fears are justified.

Depends on how good the child actor is. I see what you’re saying (and it would help out with filming issues too because children can’t work super long hours if it’s an important character) but some children can be quite menacing and come across as very very evil and if this version has any weird powers / hold over others, enough to make Rumple be afraid, then if they cast it right it could be equally as frightening.

Also remember, this character has been around for a longgg time (who knows how long really) so its not like he’s just facing a 10 year old, he’s potentially facing an evil genius who has been around for ages and just happens to look 10 (for instance).

In the meantime this is very exciting news and I can’t wait to see what they do with the character! They said he will be “complex” which is…basically how everybody else on the show is so I look forward to their interpretation, especially since PP is one of their favorite stories. I’m expecting a very cool twist on all of it and can’t wait to actually explore more of NL cause we haven’t really gotten to see much of it yet.

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[Author]

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