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MysteryKat25Participant
Thanks, that linked worked. 🙂 I see what you mean about the picture….
[adrotate group="5"]Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantHmm, link isn’t working for me so not sure what picture they used but it’s a great article!
Sarah & Colin worked together for an episode on The Tudors as well as OUAT so it’s nice to see that they’re friends and help keep each other grounded so far from home.
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25Participant@HappyEndings wrote:
@NeilfromKentucky wrote:
13 is totally Star Wars!! 😀 hehe jk
Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory – Door #13
I don’t know but I thought they said they weren’t going to do Star War ❓
They could do nods to stories they love without us ever getting to see all of the worlds. There was a wizard hat in Rumple’s house that they said could be a nod to the Sorcerer’s Apprentice and/or Harry Potter but I doubt we’ll really ever SEE either one. The doors are similar: some we’re shown up close (like the green curtain that is sure to be Oz) and others are just nods to other worlds they love whether they can show them to us or not.
I think we’ll definitely get to explore at least a little bit of a few worlds (we’ve seen Wonderland, we’re sure to see Oz eventually, we know the Land Without Color is traveled to through Jefferson’s hat and we may see a few others) and the others can be nods. We’re never going to actually see anything with Star Wars but it is one of their favorite stories so they could mention it (the character they wrote for on Lost had a thing for Star Wars) and they used the ringtone on Greg’s phone – that’s the most we’ll get with that more than likely.
As much as I’d love to know for sure what each door is, I doubt we’ll know anytime soon, especially if some of them are just nods to other stories they can’t really use. Maybe when all is said and done, one of the magazines or DVDs or something will have an in-depth look at what each of the doors was supposed to represent.
So far a bunch have been deduced (even if it is tough when there are 2 possibilities for the Land Without Color – you would think that one would have been easy!) but a bunch we may never know. =/ I hope we get more though, I really do. They’ve opened up the worlds a lot so there are tons of possibilities.
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25Participant@RumplesGirl wrote:
–Keegen auditioned 4 times for Blue? Interesting.
–LOL that she had to wear a slinky dress before she landed the role. Anything is better than that BF dress though…
–BF set up as powerful. (RG’s thought: lol. No. We’ve all seen S2. Just no.) But Keegan wants to play the most powerful being. (RG’s thought: lol. No. It’s not gonna happen)
–Blue Fairy vs. Tinkerbell Battle. (I’m for it!)Thanks for posting!
Well…in all fairness they did throw her that one line in S1 and they certainly HAVEN’T paid it off yet – she’s probably begging to go back to that because they haven’t shown her as very powerful at all lately! (Can’t say I blame her….they gave her the nice title and then acted like it never existed!)
Love that she dared to be different and wore green instead of blue. I get why everyone was wearing blue, but it helped her stand out – it’s a risky move but it worked!
Agreed RG – anything is better than that BF dress (not a huge fan of it! Remember when people were questioning if the BF had legs because they were never seen?? lol!)
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantKFChimera thank you for your posts. I know I’ve been extremely guilty of ranting more about the anti-SF things as of late than pouring over the same details for CS because I needed to get it out to people who understand what I’m feeling (aka, the CS people in the CS thread). I’ll agree overall it should be more positive and once I figure out how to layout what I’m wanting to do with the analysis on rewatch I will definitely try to leave it more in that direction. (I’m planning on studying Snowing, SF, CS, and Millian to see how they’ve set everything up in more detail, like the lists that Surayya made of parallels) 🙂
Believe it or not I’ve been extremely open-minded about Neal / SwanFire in the past, I just have some issues with him in regards to Emma. I adore young Bae and keep *wanting* him to do something that makes me more torn but the more we get, the stronger CS becomes for me and I just don’t see SF having as much setup.
I’ve been attempting (badly it seems) to compare/contrast and not just GO CS! constantly and explain WHY I have such issues/what I need them to work on if they want to go that route. I want to be torn, especially since Emma will likely be, and so far that hasn’t been accomplished. If they want me to root for SF, the SHOW needs to give me something to work with! I’ve been asking that for ages!
What I mostly meant on the “If this is the set-up for true love on this show and CaptainSwan isn’t…then everything we ever knew is a lie and it’s all meaningless. Cause I just don’t understand…at all.” is that with so much set-up for CS (all the parallels, camera angles, quotes, etc etc) I will not remotely understand if it’s all for naught based on everything else with every other couple we have seen on the show thus far. I just want to understand FROM THE SHOW! I used the Lost example because I didn’t get the ship I *wanted* but I at least *saw* the set-up for the one that I didn’t want which ended up happening.
Basically I *WANT* to understand / root for her whoever does end up being Emma’s true love and I want to see *where it comes from on the show*. I just want to understand, through the set-up of the show, on-screen, where a relationship I’m supposed to root for is coming from and right now, I don’t see actual set-up for one but I do see it for the other.
I’ve looked, I get why it’s a nice story, I see ways that they *could* choose to go about making it happen and explain a lot of the issues I have away (and I do want him to become more likable and make up for some of it, I really do, the young Bae I adore is in there somewhere!). I just have seen a lot of set-up within the show for CS and not nearly as much for SF so that was my point with that.
I agree this isn’t a discussion thread and I do read some SF stuff from time to time and ultimately would love to understand what they’re seeing that I’m not set-up-wise. I’m gonna pay super close attention to both couples on the rewatch analysis I’m planning on doing later this summer but as much as the story *idea* can be worked with, the actual *set-up* (so far…) leans in a different direction.
I can see why that quote took on a life of its own here and it does sound overly dramatic and for that I apologize. It wouldn’t kill the show for me or anything like that. I just would not understand at all because of the way they’ve set everything up so far. Story vs set-up is a big thing with OUAT, they parallel things for a reason, wording is almost always important etc etc. While I get that they could set up CS so fully in order to break down Emma’s walls and get her ready for love again, I don’t see how it all just disappears and she ends up with someone they don’t have the set-up there for within the framing of the show. It would render all of the parallels etc irrelevant which brings down the rest of the framework. Of course this is still “as of yet” so technically there’s always time to give Neal a very slow burn to catch up in the parallel / camera angle / quote department but nothing we have seen so far suggests that.
With the triangle coming up very soon it would make more sense to me if BOTH men had been paralleled and quoted and had camera angles out to wazoo but I haven’t seen that yet. I’ll be looking closer on my series rewatch so we’ll see what happens then. I get why Emma will be torn, but from a storytelling perspective it seems rather lopsided headed into the triangle from a viewing perspective.
So…sorry for derailing the thread into such depths of negative territory. This is a CS thread where we can rant about anything relating to our pairing and I sometimes take that particular tangent a bit too far but it usually comes from needing to vent after seeing SO much hatred and/or blind/non-logical arguments.
I do the same for CS stuff if people start celebrating too early because nothing is set in stone and they’re all tricky with their wording so gotta take absolutely everything with a grain of salt and while I remain cautiously optimistic, based again on the things we’ve seen that are tangible within the show, neither side can definitively say their ship will happen, much less anytime soon.
I can play devil’s advocate on most things so I just want to understand from within the show where it’s coming from. As long as I can understand and see it and it’s not coming from left field when they do such an excellent job of setting up true love on this show, I’ll be fine. As I said I’ll pay more attention to the set-up but I feel like a lot of things have been taken as fact lately (by everyone) that on second look at the wording or the scenes in question, what we feel about them may or may not be what they were actually saying.
As for this:
KFChimera wrote:You still may not see it or like it, but you might see enough to see why someone else could like it even if you do not or adamantly opposed to liking it.I completely agree. I make a point of being open to everything (this show is full of shades of grey, nobody is exempt) and I do get the appeal of Neal. I want him to do well and be happy and make up for the past too! I have major issues regarding his relationship with Emma (at this point) but I also see the sweetness and why others love that pairing even though it wouldn’t be my first choice. I’ll even be open to SF *if* they deal with the issues rather than sweeping them under the rug.
As long as I can see where it’s coming from and it fits with everything else they’ve shown us I’ll be fine. (I may still hate it for years, ie: the pairings on Lost, but as long as I see/get it then I’ll learn to live with it). I’m sure regardless of who Emma chooses in the end, the writers WANT us to root for them to be happy.
The show is all about True Love and Hope…I don’t think they want to kill that by having Emma end up in a relationship they can’t defend (ie: someone out of left field or someone who has been exceptionally cruel to her 24/7 or something like that). She actually does have 2 good options, they just need a bit of work – and so does she – before she can get to the point of actually having her true love, whoever that may be.
It’s one of the biggest reasons I had for my rant in the shipper wars thread because I see so much hatred for so many characters / pairings that I know others love and the hatred isn’t usually directed at the characters or the ships but at the PEOPLE shipping them. It’s extremely aggrivating to be the only person in the room who loves what you love and watch everyone tear down your character and call you names for liking them. It’s one of the reasons these individual shipper threads are great because we have a place to go that’s a safe haven, surrounded mostly by people who share your opinion and not ripping you to shreds for liking it.
There is a VERY big difference between not liking a character / pairing & being rude to the PEOPLE who ship something. Huge pet peeve of mine. I can defend almost any character we’ve seen to a degree and get why people are such devoted fans of that character/pairing, whether they’re my cup of tea or not. Some of my best friends around here ship entirely different things than I do. OUAT is a melting pot and I love it!
It would be nice if shipper threads were all rainbows and butterflies and GO ____!!! but that’s never going to happen. We all have good days and bad days, days where we’re super excited about what we’re seeing and days when we’re legitimately concerned for our pairing and we need to get those things out. I’ve found this thread to be immensely helpful, especially after a bad day because others will point out something I’ve missed or forgotten that gives me reason to hope and believe again. I’m sure that goes for any pairing.
I’m not sure if the anti-Hook stuff happens in the SF threads around here. No idea. I do know it happens TONS in the livechat and other places that I’ve taken to staying away from because of it so I understand both sides of it. It’s not a very nice coin! That being said, I don’t think any shipper thread will ever completely sway somebody one way or another regardless. It might help people understand a bit better whether they see it or not but even in the most positive of threads people will still say you’re “delusional” if you don’t like what they like or don’t explain away something that they have.
I noticed this a lot in the last livechats because people would ask if something was proven on the show and they’d get 2 different answers: shippers would say yes it was, others would say technically not yet (which is true…) and then get yelled at and told to get over their ship! I’m BIG on proving things on the show. Make it impossible for me to get around, not easily swept under the rug and I’m good to go.
KFChimera – I’ll agree to a degree on your point about the testing of characters. I’m sure SF people will say that Neal’s test is ongoing but not all CS people are so narrowed in on Hook that we all think Neal has “failed” already – I’ve said many times in many places that he’s got a LONG way to go for me. Is it impossible? No. Do I think people are too quick to sweep the issues with him under the rug and forget about them and want Emma to just get over them super fast too? Yes.
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantLove everything you said AllThatGlitters (and don’t worry, I’m sure my rants upset SF fans WAY more than anything you just said!)
I too was hoping for more. I was pleasantly surprised (at first) that he didn’t turn out to be really truly awful because I expected the young Bae (who I absolutely love) to have been severely damaged and become some awful person (especially how Emma talked about him in season 1…) but he just hasn’t…fought for anything!
I tried to keep an open mind for a very long time and he just hasn’t done hardly anything to actively try to win people over. It’s a sweet story, I get it…but time and time again, he just leaves and does nothing to fix the problem. That bar scene really irked me, especially when you realize the only reason he really came back is for Henry (nor did he even TRY to get Emma, or make her feel better about how things went down, or like you said SHOW ANY REMORSE AT ALL for a very long time). He just….he says one thing and he does another. It’s like he thinks “oh how cute she’s jealous let me grin like an idiot because she still cares about me” while he’s about to tell everyone how much he loves and needs Tamara. It’s kinda sickening at times. Deep down young Bae is still in there somewhere and I have hope for him, just not with Emma.
IF they want me to remotely believe in any hope for SF they need to SHOW me something to believe in! The more they show of Neal’s antics in SB the more I believe in CaptainSwan.
I can play devil’s advocate on most things and while I get where people are coming from occasionally on the SF front I just don’t see how the rest of what he’s said / done can be ignored *so quickly* – if they go that route then they need to show Emma being conflicted and actually confront him about stuff. She is NOT a weak person and she’s said a lot of things to him and his responses are never…well they don’t really help his case much, do they? So if they go that route, she can’t just leap into a relationship with him (especially if she just ditches whatever she is building with Hook in the meantime to run back to him “just because he’s alive”).
As VIEWERS, people can say all they want because as viewers, we know all of it (or at least more than the characters). We realize what he did was to get her to her family and let her fulfill her destiny blah blah blah. Does he have feelings for her? Sure why not? She’s an awesome person. Were they in love once, over a decade ago? Sure, why not? THINGS CHANGE – EMMA has changed.
Sadly I think they do have to address things (whether that’s have a relationship for a little bit or just sit down and talk about stuff a lot I don’t know – I’m hoping the latter), but there definitely needs to be actual closure for Emma so that she can move on with anyone. We saw how damaged she was even a decade later by how she treated Graham early on. She has a lot of walls and even though her gut was saying to trust Hook up the beanstalk, she couldn’t bring herself to because she’d been burned so badly by Neal.
I agree with the last part too, Emma brings out the best in Hook; the side of him that hasn’t really been seen much in hundreds of years. Can’t wait til she really gets to meet Killian vs the Hook persona. She knows he’s in there somewhere and I strongly believe that side of him is what came back on the ship. I really love the fact that he was so serious this last episode and that Emma is the only person he really lets his guard down for (present day). Hopefully some of that will become more permanent if he starts trusting the group when they’re in NL – or at least get along with Snowing. I really really want Snowing to be supportive of Emma and not judgey about whoever she ends up with and Hook has a long way to go with them. (I’m with JMO though – Charming hasn’t once addressed – or punched Neal out – for sending his little girl to jail, bailing on her for years and then showing up out of nowhere so he better not take it easy on and root for Neal over Hook or I’m gonna have to be mad at his David Nolan side again for being such a hypocrite. At least seeing Hook probably go out of his way to save Henry should give them all some bonding time.
Hook still has that roguish charm to him but he wasn’t flinging innuendos around which gives it more merit. One of the things that irks me so much about how CS is characterized by the fandom is that Neal is put on a pedestal and Hook is boiled down to innuendos. Why most don’t see that’s just his armor I don’t know, but he’s just as guarded as Emma, just shows it different.
Neal gets put on a pedestal of “he was doing it for the right reasons and he’s regretted it everyday! they’re so sweet & they have a kid! must be true love!” and stating is as fact when he hasn’t redeemed himself at all (though he may…) and nothing ON THE SHOW has *proven* their love to be “true love” – until a true love’s whatever (kiss, or product of true love, or SOMETHING) proves it, it’s not canon, no matter how much you want to believe it is (goes for any and all ships).
Conversely I hear all the time that Hook is all innuendo and he flirts with everyone and doesn’t care about anyone except himself and that Emma isn’t special to him – the fact that he WAS so serious this episode and that it WAS both the BEAN and the scratchings on the helm that brought him back, if I hear he only came back for Bae one more time I am going to scream! His innuendos are part of his Hook armor – which he clearly dropped in the last episode. He let himself be open to Emma once again, even though she burned him before (and she explained it to him at the time – also now that he realizes WHO she was talking about back on the beanstalk, a lot more probably clicked).
As for the ship and him coming back…he was tossing that bean over and over in his hand and the bean has been a symbol of theirs since Tallahassee – it was the combo of the bean and the scratchings that brought him back (and remember, he thinks Neal is dead at this point too so coming back solely for a dead guy really isn’t Hook’s style, even if it is Milah’s son – Bae hurt Hook as well, emotionally scarring him to a point where he gave in to his revenge 100% until now, when EMMA offered him the same thing he once offered to Bae – parallel = no coincidence).
Ultimately Emma deserves to be with someone who will fight for her and alongside her. Time and time again, we see Neal jumping out of the way. In the bar he offered her a chance to get out of there fast so she wouldn’t tell his dad where he was….in the pawn shop he LITERALLY jumped out of the way of the fireball coming straight AT EMMA and CHARMING was the one to jump in and protect his little girl. I need to find that gif again but seriously? Heck, the ones that Emma has ABANDONED have fought harder for her than the one who left her in jail.
I just…I can’t wrap my head around HOW the story could be true love if they want to make CS a fling and SF endgame. It just…it does not compute! Not with everything we’ve seen (ignoring the subjective stuff – including all of the intense stares that Hook & Emma share, if we ONLY look at the actual parallels, wording, camera shots etc…) pointing to one and not the other. They set up the first real glimpse of SF and being the actual PAST and paralleled it to present day with CS and even that’s not enough apparently. *sigh*
I think they made Neal seem too sweet and a victim in Tallahassee and people fell in love with him and just took out all of their anger on August instead. It doesn’t account for still being happy with him after Manhattan though… I guess they just see family! and assume they’ll all be together and everything will be fine. Rumple ships it and Henry will so that must be it right? Who cares how Emma’s felt for the last decade, it’s all August’s fault! (Grr – seriously? TELL ME that isn’t the general line of thinking cause it makes me want to pull my hair out).
I just…I agree August is partly to blame but that doesn’t take into account Neal’s actions AT ALL! He still chose to NOT GO BACK after the postcard. Hate August however much you want but HE GAVE NEAL A WAY OUT AND A WAY BACK TO EMMA – Neal CHOSE not to take it. Make of that what you will.
Season 3 is going to feel like an eternity. Getting to it is only half the wait, especially if we spend the first half (as many are suggesting) waiting for Emma to find out that Neal is alive. While it should make for LOTS of great storyline with all the people on the ship in NL (all stuff I am very much looking forward to, ESPECIALLY CaptainSwan interaction), we’re going to be hearing a LOT of negative stuff all season. 🙁 (Unless we get super lucky and people see a different side to Hook and learn to love the CaptainSwan interaction – plus we don’t know what might happen in conversations about Neal between them where we learn more of Emma’s thinking on all of it – so far it’s just been about what it’ll do to Henry…)
I’m more concerned about how they’re going to show Neal’s side of the adventure – if they keep making him out to be a victim of course more people will root for him to get back to Emma and then it’ll make EMMA look like the bad guy if she chooses Hook, especially since that will make for the 2nd woman in Neal’s life he believes Hook has “stolen” from him – Neal is NOT innocent in all of this (just like Hook did NOT “steal” Milah but it broke up the family nonetheless). Regardless of Neal’s logic, confessing love right after the woman you “loved” and “needed” and were going to marry shooting you and sending you through a portal does NOT make for an epic get back to your love storyline. Nor does it erase any of the past that has to be addressed – so he better be focused on getting back to his FAMILY and his SON and any mention of Emma is just that. If they dwell too much on him trying to get back to her then it’ll be tragic and making her a villain. (However, if it drives him to bond with Regina someday and end up with her or someone else then fine, I’ll deal with the twisted logic of making Emma seem like a horrible person for daring to move on from the father of her son who abandoned her in jail and then she thought he was dead. Seriously how dare she?)
Until Emma actually chooses and/or proves true love with Hook, it will only ever be “but Neal is alive and when he comes back CS is dead” – which means we’ll probably have to wait til this time next season for anything legit to hold on to that people will actually SEE and concede on. Whether you like a pairing or not, once they’re proven as true love that’s it, they’re true love. Until Emma makes a choice and it’s set in stone in some way, brace yourselves.
In the meantime maybe some time in FTL with MAP will help Neal grow up a bit. I think being 14 for soooo many years fried his brain a bit. I love young Bae, I see moments of NealFire that I can like, but just…not in a relationship with Emma. I’m all for him forming relationships with everyone else and staying close for Henry’s sake but I just don’t see how it could possibly be a healthy relationship for SwanFire. They’ve got their work cut out for them if they want me to believe, that’s basically what I’m saying.
For now I shall enjoy the long lists of ways they’ve set up CaptainSwan and not in the “delusional, shipper goggle” way but in the actual, let’s study what they’ve actually shown us and see what we can come up with way.
Looking forward to Season 2 hitting Netflix so I can get better quality screenshots for season 2 stuff. I want to do a complete rewatch and really study all of it and how they’ve shown us the stories for: Emma (who she is as a person), Snowing, SwanThief/Fire, Millian, and of course CaptainSwan. From everything I’ve seen so far, the parallels are still in CS favor and I look forward to seeing quantifiable data to that affect so keep the lists coming! I’ll try to put something together myself once I can get the better screenshots!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25Participant@RumplesGirl wrote:
Ugh. I hope not. I disliked her quite a lot. She was a disgrace to the name Jacquelyn!
Yeah I wasn’t too fond of her myself but loved seeing the actress in something (she was Tess on Smallville). It didn’t occur to me til the other day when I rewatched Tallahassee that all of the bad things that happened to Anton were because of Emma’s uncle & his lousy girlfriend – somehow I never think of him as such, just as Charming’s evil twin, but it really does all boil down to Emma’s family.
To be fair we only saw the end of her and maybe she was once a lot better but turned villainous. I feel like they left a few threads hanging in case they want to revisit her at some point (like they did with Lancelot too who I’m hoping to see again as well – way too many extra threads we never got answers to) but I hope she isn’t actually connected to Jefferson, just WL in general.
I agree that the wording of “lost” is debatable, especially since we’ve seen things like “gone” and “undoing” before as well. Wording is (usually) very important on the show so it could mean any of a number of things. Jefferson “lost” her because of his job but for all we know he used her as a placeholder while he brought someone else back to the EF and then the world she was left in lost its magic and therefore he couldn’t get back to her through his typical means of travel. Or it could mean that something bad happened to her wherever she was before he could get back in time. Or it could mean a whole lot of other things we’ve never thought to think of! *head hurts now*
As for seeing the hat again, I mostly meant in the show so that we learn more about it officially. We can study the pics til we’re blue in the face, and while I think we’ve come up with a lot of great ideas and narrowed some of the doors down, we’re still blindly guessing on a lot of stuff relating to the hat. I’d really love to hear more from Jefferson and/or see somebody else (like Emma) think of the other hat and try to use it. It would certainly be interesting to see somebody new walk into that room and ask questions (sounds like a perfect job for Emma actually) but we won’t get that for awhile because of NL and SS’s schedule as he would likely need to be included but since they’ve set up at least the first part of S3 I think there’s time to wait for those things to align so we can get some more answers.
Some of the doors are more obvious than others and some worlds we know exist and apparently have magic (as per Jefferson being able to travel there) have more than 1 possible door that would make sense (I think it’s Door 2 & Door 7 that look like they could be the land without color?) – the only ones I feel pretty positive about are WL and Oz (maybe if they have to travel to Oz sometime (maybe soon??) we’ll get to see it again! *crosses fingers*
On the bright side we can cross-reference a little bit, going off of worlds we’ve heard of within the OUAT version of things that we know have magic and where Jefferson has gone etc. Worlds without magic seem to be through bean-on-ground portal transportation, and so far it looks like Neverland = bean in water, as we’ve seen 3 times now (once in the Crocodile, twice in ASOTM – the globe said that Henry was taken to NL and they definitely threw that bean in the water).
Magic transportation is certainly a head-spinning experience! Just when you think you’ve got one angle figured out, another possibility throws a wrench into things. I hadn’t even thought it weird that Rumple, Jefferson, AND Frankenstein were all in 1 place – at the end of that only Jefferson & Frankenstein jumped into the hat which makes you question how Jefferson got back after that, as well as what series of events led to Rumple being in the land without color…and then bringing back both him and frankenstein with Jefferson…and then…ahhhh make the spinning stop!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantHmm, interesting points have been brought up! Hat’s rules are the same # that goes in must go out, not necessarily 2 but the same number. We’ve seen it be 2 twice now, but that is a very good question about who went through with Jefferson to get Frankenstein as we clearly saw Rumple, Frankenstein, and Jefferson all in the EF together (I love that shot people keep saying is begging to be an album cover!). It implies that an extra person was used along the way and it would work with the timeline as far as Grace’s age is concerned for it to have been her mother.
I too thought that we would find that Alice was the mother but with the spinoff that seems highly unlikely so I like the idea of the aunt! Alice’s sister never had a name in the book I don’t think. I like the idea of somebody tag-teaming with Jefferson so another realm-jumper would be cool. With SS’s busy schedule I doubt we’ll learn anytime soon ( 🙁 ) but I definitely want to find out eventually.
Jefferson did heavily imply (or maybe stated, I honestly don’t remember cause it feels like ages since we’ve seen him now) that he lost Grace’s mother because of his job so I hope that’s something we find out more about.
The only woman we’ve seen that has some connection to WL but we don’t know much about said connection is Jack and I seriously doubt that she’s connected to Jefferson. If she is, they left that dangling for the distant future when they could get SS back because she hinted at WL connections but we haven’t seen or heard of her since.
I really want to see the hat room again! It holds so many possibilities and the spare hat is still in existence *somewhere* – it wasn’t magical when Emma made it but that was when magic didn’t exist in SB, it might work now and we haven’t seen it at all!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25Participant@obisgirl wrote:
Another one I saw also on tumblr, Henry’s a souvenir.
Rofl! We do know that characters on this show like to collect those (especially a certain Swan girl…)
In looking over the conversation that Neal & Emma have in the bar in Manhattan, Neal makes a point about destiny and fate and that something must have come out of them knowing each other that made fate / destiny want to bring them together BACK THEN, which of course = Henry. He certainly doesn’t act like a man who suddenly has everything he’s ever wanted in front of him and is fighting for a chance to get it all back. Nope, not at all because he has a fiancee he’s going to marry (not that he mentions this) and just doesn’t want to be back in a world that has FTL people and magic and um, his DAD in it. Not once does he try to fight for Emma in that scene.
I know that people bring up the fate and destiny stuff a LOT with regards to SwanFire but I think this conversation in the bar is key. At this point he does NOT know about Henry, just that Emma has found her parents (like he wanted for her) and that she knows his dad who he is trying to stay away from. Emma, the woman he has supposedly loved and regretted not going after every single day for over a decade even though he is engaged to someone else, is standing RIGHT in front of him, pouring her heart out and he does absolutely nothing to reciprocate. The only remote hint of it is when he stands up to Rumple later by going back to his apartment and finding Rumple screaming at Emma, which is nice and I cheered for him but at the same time you left her in jail and abandoned her and never even bothered to admit that you loved her back then too when she said it just now and you think you’ll make up for it by telling your dad not to yell at her before telling them both to take a hike and get the heck out of town??
So let’s analyze the actual scene:
Neal: Well, what do you want to know, Emma? You want the truth? Ask away.
Emma: Did you know who I was when we met?
Neal: If I had, I wouldn’t have gone near you.
Emma: Come on.
Neal: “Come on”? Come on, what? I was in hiding. I came here to get… a-away from… all that crap.
Emma: So if you didn’t know, then you were just using me. You just needed someone to take the fall for all the watches that you stole.
Neal: I wasn’t using you. When we met, I didn’t know. I found out.
Emma: How?
Neal: When I went to sell the watches… I ran into a friend of yours –August.Emma: (Very upset and angry, even moreso than before) You left me… And let me go to prison because Pinocchio told you to?
Neal: Emma-
Emma: I loved you.
Neal: I was trying to help you.
Emma: By letting me go to jail.
Neal: By getting you home.
Emma: Are you telling me… That us meeting was a coincidence? How the hell did that happen if it wasn’t in your plan or your father’s?!
Neal: Think about it. He wanted you to break the curse. Us meeting, that could’ve stopped it. Maybe it was fate.
Emma: You believe in that?
Neal: You know, there’s not a ton I remember about my father that doesn’t suck, but he used to tell me that there are no coincidences. Everything that happens happens by design, and there’s nothing we can do about it. Forces greater than us conspire to make it happen. Fate, destiny, whatever you want to call it, the point is, maybe we met for a reason. Maybe something good came from us being together.
Emma: No. Not that I can think of. I just went to jail. That’s it. Doesn’t matter now, I’m over it. And you. (She stands up, getting ready to leave)
Neal: Why do you wear the keychain I got you?
Emma: (She looks down at the keychain hanging on a cord around her neck. She pulls the cord, relesing it from her neck, then hands him the keychain.) To remind myself to never trust someone again. Come on. I made a deal with your father I’d bring you to him.
Neal: You made a deal with him?
Emma: Yeah, and I’m upholding my end.
Neal: No, no you don’t have to. You know that.
Emma: I know.
Neal: Okay. So this should be really easy for you. Tell him that you lost me. Tell him you can’t find me. You do that, you never have to see me again.He’s right about getting her back to her family…and something good coming of all of it (Henry). He’s right that fate and destiny probably played a part in getting all of that to happen (ie: Henry is important – he helped break the curse by bringing Emma back, he brought Bae back to Rumple, and apparently he was super important long before he was born because the Lost Ones have a picture of him).
Not once does Neal say they were meant to be together FOREVER, but that “something good came from us being together” – aka, past tense. He was also pretty quick to tell Emma to get out of her deal with Rumple and lie about finding Neal so that she’d never have to see him again (and moreso that Rumple wouldn’t find him…) Does that sound like a man who is thrilled to have the “love of his life” in front of him again? Is he remotely fighting to get her to stay with him? NO. He is telling her to run away fast and that had he known who she was he never would have gone near her.
This goes back to the idea that all of Neal’s stuff relates to the PAST and Hook’s language focuses on the FUTURE.
If this is the set-up for true love on this show and CaptainSwan isn’t…then everything we ever knew is a lie and it’s all meaningless. Cause I just don’t understand…at all.
As I said earlier, I learned on Lost what the difference between wanting a pair to happen and actually seeing the setup for it happen. Right now I’m seeing a nice story *idea* for a very long and twisty road to *possibly* make SwanFire happen….and a lot of *actual, substantial set-up* for CaptainSwan.
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantI’m not sure. Emma’s had other relationships since the last time she actually had a relationship with Neal and at least tried to let herself move on before, once that we’ve seen (darn you Regina for killing him!). Also the fact that he was engaged to and defending the evil one right up until she shot him will hold some weight too. (Sorry, to me saying you love, need, and are going to marry someone else 1 second then realizing she’s evil and trying to kill you forcing you to say “I love you” to someone else in the last moments of your life – or so you think – does not constitute “I’m in love with you always have been always will be” nor does a response to it).
I think Emma still has feelings from when she was younger and those have definitely been brought to the surface recently by his return to her life, but she’s also a very guarded practical person and she witnessed him time and time again pick Tamara over her up until the very last second and only when he thought he was dying. Emma acknowledged that he had moved on and found Tallahassee with someone else.
She has a lot of feelings related to him but I think most of them, at least the ones that will have any lasting consequences will be those relating to Henry. Other than saying that Neal was “gone” all she’s basically said on the subject is “how do I tell Henry?” and “He’s already lost his father, I’m not letting him lose a mother too” – we’ve seen her a little sad about it but it’s all related back to her love for her son.
I’m sure they’ll try to play up the triangle and have it cause a bit of drama (probably midseason finale cliffhanger which will make for a long winter full of hearing people screaming that she now knows he’s alive so CS is dead *throws something pre-emptively*). Emma definitely has some things to work out with Neal but I don’t see her going back to him after everything they’ve been through, especially after spending time with the 1 guy in her life who came back for her while trying to save the 1 other person who ever came back for her: her son.
I think it’ll be interesting to see how the dynamics play out between Neal & Hook for sure, especially since we’ll probably see the childish side again relating to Hook “stealing” the women in Neal’s life, but I think / hope Emma will shut him up and stand up for Hook, especially since he is helping to SAVE their son…the son who was kidnapped by none other than the evil person Neal was defending til the last second and planning on marrying even once he had actually found where Emma was AND accused her of being jealous / finding out that she was a bit. That’s gonna sting Emma and I’d like to think she’s a stronger person than to just forget what he said up until the portal thing…
I could see Hook taking a step back (unless Neal attacks him) and if Emma does entertain the thought of working things out with Neal then Hook could slip a little for awhile but CS always find a way back to each other and I think ultimately Emma will choose Hook.
Honestly knowing what we know about Emma, something major will probably be happening in and around the time they discover and are reunited with Neal, so if anything, she’s likely to just stop with either of them and focus on anything that isn’t remotely painful to her emotionally. What that huge something may be who knows, but it’s OUAT – something big will be going on. She’ll push both guys away like she did with Snowing when they were first reunited, and then eventually something will happen forcing her to deal with her feelings and come clean with them and in the meantime they’ll probably both be trying to court her a bit without actually courting her as per her wanting to push people away when she doesn’t want to deal with the emotions of it all.
It should be interesting to see it play out but I hope that with the way they’ve written her character they don’t have her slide down too far and become the teenage girl again who’s blinded by Neal and just have her completely forget all the things that have happened. I expect better of her than that. I think they’ll leave the triangle dangling for a bit for sure, but I don’t see EMMA being the one that’s really doing anything other than pushing both away while she focuses on something else.
I just can’t see her switching back and forth on who she’s dating, nor can I see her just ditching Hook and screaming “Neal’s alive!” and running off to be with him. There’s a big difference between her ending with Neal and how Hook/Milah ended.
They *could* try and do a triangle since they put Snowing in a triangle and it would parallel that a bit, but I really can’t see how she would ever go to Neal unless she felt it was out of obligation to try for Henry’s sake and even then it wouldn’t make her happy because she’s not that teenage girl anymore. She’s a strong, independent woman full of magic (which he hates), a family that wants to go to FTL to be together (which he hates) and she knows full well he never had any intention of coming to find her because he would have stayed away from her had he known who she was / wanted to marry someone else who then tried to kill him and kidnap their son. Those are not things that Emma can just forget, at least not the way she’s been written so far.
If they insist on going the obligation route, other than me throwing things, it better be over fast and just be another way of paralleling CaptainSwan with Snowing. After all, David felt obligated to stay with Kathryn but was still drawn to MM so it wouldn’t *surprise* me if they did that, especially with Henry and Rumple shipping SF so much, but I really hope they address the fact that Henry should be happy having everyone he loves in his life and that sometimes, in the real world, parents don’t end up together but they can still get along for his sake. If this were JUST fairy tales in FTL, I could see people’s point about them being meant to be for Henry’s sake and how sweet it is that their kid is bringing them back together etc etc. But these are fairy tale characters INFLUENCED by the real world, none of them moreso than Emma, and she better than anyone knows that life isn’t always like a fairytale.
I really hope that if they do the triangle and if Emma goes to Neal even for a little bit that Hook doesn’t start something with someone else, but I could see that happening maybe. As long as they keep showing that CaptainSwan are drawn to each other and really do want to be with each other whether they are at the time or not I could live with it. Re Lost: I loved Skate but I fully acknowledge that was a WANT and not what they were actually setting up. Even when Skate were together, Jack & Kate kept being jealous and acting out of revenge ie: Kate sleeping with Sawyer because Jack was having dinner with Juliet. It was obvious that's why she did that right then.
If they do SF for a bit, I could see Hook doing something like that in an obvious attempt to get back at Emma for choosing Neal, but it will be done in a way that is obvious set-up wise to show that he isn’t “in love with” the other person, but that he is still hurt and lashing out because he wants to be with Emma. THAT is the difference in set-up between a want and reality. As long as they show that it’s grounded in something that keeps CS alive, I’ll be ok with it – and it better be from both sides (ie: show that Emma is struggling because she isn’t the person he thinks she is anymore and that she’s mostly giving it a try for Henry’s sake).
Like I said I don’t think there will so much be a switching between guys thing as there might be Emma pushes everybody away but obviously has to spend some time with Neal because he is technically family with Henry and even though Hook seems to be brought in for the NL adventures, he’s not *technically* family (yet) and Neal will likely want nothing to do with him. I’m sure Emma will stand up for Hook for helping to save Henry and that might shut Neal up for a little bit but I don’t see him wanting Hook around his family more than necessary so by letting Neal be around for Henry, Hook gets pushed out a little bit from Emma regardless until / unless she stands up for him all the time so he may feel like he’s getting kicked out even if she hasn’t really made a choice and could lash out accordingly by trying to make her jealous though I hope that’s not the case.
Obisgirl – I agree. I really think that beach scene summed up the status of their relationship and even then he was still excited that Tamara wasn’t to blame until oh wait she was *smacks forehead*. He had every opportunity to fix things and he didn’t. Emma told him exactly what he needed to hear (that she was a little jealous) and while he was happy about that he STILL defended the psycho one.
The portal scene was Emma desperately trying to hang on and I said earlier her main focus was Henry. She knows how Henry gets about his family, regardless of how they try to hurt one another, and now that Neal is in Henry’s life, Emma DOES need Neal. A part of her will always love him as he was her first great love and is the father of her son, but I feel like it’s more closure because they’ve said a lot of the things that needed saying. She had already told him in Manhattan that she loved him and that’s why it all hurt so much when he abandoned her and he didn’t have the nerve to say it til he thought he was dying. To him, in that moment, it was supposed to be closure and I feel like that’s what it will feel like to Emma.
As someone posted on tumblr and I quoted here a few pages ago:
Hook coming back was a CHOICE.
Neal being alive is a status of being.I don’t think one being alive will counteract all the bad things he’s done, regardless of the reasoning, and undermine the power of the one who chose to come back. This is especially true considering Emma’s quotes all the way back to 1×06 about actually making a choice rather than just wanting something.
Viva la CaptainSwan!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
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