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MysteryKat25Participant
Thanks Surayya for agreeing with me!
The only thing I want to add is that last year Ginny was always saying she didn’t think Snow would do ____ insert whatever here, and then this year at PaleyFest she seemed ok with the idea of a darker Snow because of the things that happened with Cora though with how they keep playing on the guilt she’s basically reverted back. The point though was that her opinion changed a bit and felt like Snow couldn’t be boxed in quite as much and we did see a black spot on her heart. So maybe over time opinions will change on other things as well.
I agree on the point about what she was privy to at the time, though they’ve all seen how the season ended now but some things are more moving to people than others and it takes a lot more than looks for people to jump ship. I do agree though that a few around here are a little less anti-Hook so yay!
I kinda equate Hook with the Rumple thing from Season 1. He wasn’t well-liked by a lot until around Desperate Souls when people softened to him a bit (me included) and then absolutely loved him from Skin Deep on. I expect we’ll be getting more Hook backstory much much earlier in the coming season and that should help a TON.
Sadly for some (including some of the actors I bet), we’ll have to wait until things are really spelled out on the show. WE see the looks, the parallels, the bookends, the choices and we look at it differently than others that have spent the whole season complaining about him. Maybe on rewatch they’ll see a little more knowing what they know now from the finale, or they may see something when it becomes way more obvious, but every little bit helps. π
[adrotate group="5"]Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantAwesome insight Surayya!
I guess I should have reworded part of it earlier because you’re right, they do keep saying that she loves him (though honestly I think it’s a part of her that loves him, not that she’s super in love with him but she does love him yes, and a part of her always will I’m sure). I just think she will end up looking back on the events of season 2 (necklace, portal, etc) and eventually see it as a kind of closure, even if she didn’t intentionally mean it to be at the time. They’ve got a lot to work out but these are 2 steps that are closer to an ending than a beginning, especially when you add everything else in.
I haven’t done my rewatch yet and I didn’t remember here wavering on giving it up but that almost makes it better in a way because she knew what she was doing then. Some feelings are definitely still there and need to be processed but I still think someday it will feel more like closure than restarting something.
I’ll agree on the car thing.
Overall I’ll agree that the actors know their characters pretty well and can give great insight to their particular character. The thing that concerns me specifically regarding Snow is that Ginny jumps into mamaSnow mode and seems VERY anti-Hook, whereas Snow herself has told Emma not to revert back to the person she was before she got to SB etc etc. So I feel like what they’ve set up with Snow on the show vs what Ginny says are …conflicting to me.
It makes sense for MRJ, RC, or EdR to say it though because they’re Neal/members of Neal’s family so they have to get in that headspace every day. It’s gotta be harder to watch the show with that in mind and not be biased in any way. I’m sure we obsess over certain moments that aren’t as obvious until put together (for instance, in that Snowing & CaptainSwan parallels video I linked here earlier I had completely forgotten about Snow’s necklace that Charming took and the bean necklace that Hook was waving in front of Emma just the same as the other and both girls were trying to get them back).
They’ve bookended the season in such a beautiful way and there are tons of Snowing parallels etc etc but I get why the actors (who must always be taken with a grain of salt) may not pay much attention to / have forgotten / are biased etc etc. I guess it just saddens me that she immediately jumped into the idea that Snow would hate it but I guess we never really got any reaction on what she thinks of Neal. In fact at PaleyFest, JMO was the only one who really seemed to have anything to say about that and she wanted to know when Charming was going to punch him for letting her go to jail!
It’s rough for everyone really I guess…they can’t say much without getting into trouble, and they can say their opinions all they want, especially at the end of the season, but JMO and MRJ have both been kinda focusing on the Henry front rather than on the love aspect of things cause they really can’t comment on it. MRJ even said he doesn’t want to paint the writers into a corner even though he thinks SF have a chance still. So I guess what I’m saying is it surprised me that Ginny would immediately attack the idea of CS when everything we’ve actually seen sets that up beautifully. I’m hoping things sound a little different next year or that people just don’t say who they’d like to see together. Much safer to just stay neutral rather than to risk going against what the show may have in mind to do…
Would be kinda bad at the end of all things for them to say “well I really wanted to see her end up with ___” but regardless of what any of the actors (or fans for that matter) want, it’s ultimately up to H&K and its the actors jobs to play it no matter what so maybe down the line, they’ll have to get into the character’s headspace and learn to be accepting & supportive, regardless of what she chooses.
I’ll agree that I think SF people are panicking…either that or they’re sitting in a bubble with their fingers in their ears saying “lalala can’t hear you” – not really sure which. I see more SF people coming into CS places than I do the other way around and I try to be open-minded on it if I’m going to say anything about it in a pro-SF place, saying what I would need to see for them to win me over etc. It’s tough though because some are already saying it’s canon and to get over CS (like that will EVER be possible for anybody to just get over their ship).
Having watched Lost I can say that people who ship hardcore will love their ship no matter what happens and still be angry years later if it doesn’t, so sadly it’s something that we’re just going to have to deal with. I expect season 3 will involve a lot more hiding out in here and fan-girling alone because there’s bound to be a lot of nastiness headed our way since they should (finally) be getting some much-needed screentime together to make up for the majority of this season.
Looking forward to all the good stuff for us but dreading the kind of hatred we’re going to encounter. I keep watching all the paralleling vids and important quotes and the bookending of the season etc etc to remind myself that we are not alone, nor are we crazy. Some days are better than others but I have heard of a few people switching ships after the finale, so maybe with more time others will join as well.
What I’ve said all season is that if both seem like interesting / viable options, then whoever is on screen the most gets the most support (typically speaking). Neal & Hook both presented interesting options in Tallahassee (though it clearly started a split in the fandom pretty fast!) but then Hook was shown in a not-very-positive light all the time because he was a) barely there b) getting thrown on the ground and becoming a bit of a joke, and c) disappeared for awhile. So of course Neal has the better storyline at that point. People have moments to take something away from (looks, comments, etc etc) and Hook just looked like a fool getting thrown around all the time! I think that the last couple of episodes have helped, and seeing him a lot more next season will DEFINITELY help. I think the fact that he will be going back to his element (being on a ship, presumably being pretty much in charge regarding Neverland stuff etc.) maybe they will see him differently. I guess I can understand why people look at the moments we (mostly) got from Hook this season and ask why on earth we want him for Emma, but I have hopes that with more screentime, especially scenes that do NOT involve him ending up on the floor, we may be able to win some people over and at least be as torn as Emma is bound to be.
I still think he was brought in to show the past and Hook the future, and they definitely bookended the season etc etc, but he is still important to the central storyline (ie: the reason Rumple wrote the curse, he’s gotta stick around at least for Henry, get back in good with Rumple & now Belle of course, etc.) but I don’t think his story will ultimately wrap around Emma. Otherwise there’s no point in paralleling Snowing to that degree. There just isn’t.
Hookian – your comments earlier reminded me a bit ago relating to Colin’s band (which sounds amazing, even though he won’t be with them anymore which is good for the show, not so much the band) and the comments about playing the piano. It’s just one more way that Hook relates to being Jack and not Sawyer if they have him play piano. It wouldn’t be nearly as random as having Jack play it. Hook could possibly since it’s canon that Hook, in other versions of the story, does in fact play. One more tiny little happy thing for me regarding the Lost stuff. π
Hope everyone is feeling slightly better about stuff today than earlier. I know I go back and forth on whether I’m optimistic or clinging dearly to every last hope, but coming here definitely helps work through some of the anxiety! *passes out cookies*
*Reminds self that there’s tons of Hook stuff on the DVD including the cover and a BTS thing on Colin and therefore he = important no matter what* Could they have spread out those 2 on the cover anymore? I would have liked Emma to be on the other side like at PaleyFest but I can live with this as it would have been too obvious since people already guessed something like that with the way PaleyFest was laid out
Even though they did use purple for Charming, all I could think of was Hook is Red, Emma is Blue, and the border of the box is PURPLE.
*clings to every insignificant little detail* I NEED SEASON 3!!!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantIs this confirmed confirmed or just a different twist on news from the day before? I am cautiously optimistic but I know in the first news about the way ABC is setting up their big shows they said 12 & 12 but that it doesn’t necessarily mean the 2 extra episodes (though goodness knows I want them!)
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantJust found this awesome fanvid that I wanted to share with you guys! It has Snowing, then CaptainSwan, and then a lot of the parallels! It’s called “Holding out for a hero” and it’s brilliant. Love it so much & wanted to spread some happy cheer around here!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28r8N1gqgRY
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25Participant@obisgirl wrote:
A list of DVD features for the 2nd season are out. Hook has a special feature π π
Sincerely, Hook β Set sail with Colin OβDonoghue (Killian Jones/Captain Hook) and learn more about the man behind the hook.
THRILLED times a million! So happy to see that he is being heavily featured in stuff (cover, now his own feature on the DVD, etc etc!)
As I said in that thread I’m always sad when there aren’t audio commentaries or bloopers so this set sounds like it’s got a GREAT collection of extras!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantSounds like the bonus features will be awesome!!! I adore bloopers, audio commentaries etc (and yay for exploring the dysfunctional family tree as well as Hook)! I’m gonna love this one I can tell!
I’m always really bummed out when the special features I love aren’t there so very very happy that we are getting lots of goodies on this one!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantI love this podcast. Let me say that again: I LOVE THIS PODCAST.
It’s a great in-depth analysis that’s fun and I’ve met a lot of great people here, both in the livechats and the forums. I feel like I belong because I am surrounded by other Oncers who are as passionate about the show as I am.
That being said, I’ve been noticing some things lately with the shipping wars, especially in the livechat, and that saddens me greatly. It used to be a lot of fun and it’s It’s supposed to be fun. We’re a Oncer family, let’s act like it! If it continues until the ships are sorted out, which could take awhile, I may have to resort to mostly listen/watch and only comment occasionally.
It’s getting kinda ridiculous. We should be capable of having conversations without bringing everybody else down for what they love. I would hate for anyone to stop feeling like they can comment in the livechat for fear of people jumping down their throats. I used to love seeing how everybody reacted to various things! People get excited about different stuff and point out things I never would have noticed or taken them in a way I never would have thought of. That’s what fandoms do and I love it! I’ve never been this passionate or excited about a show and the more I learn from everyone else about what they’re seeing? The more I love it!
Loving that aspect shouldn’t also have to mean listening to the hatred or, most especially, the rudeness toward people who like something you don’t. We all love (and hate) different things and *usually* we get along fairly well. Sadly shipping wars have been clouding people’s minds (not directed at ANY individual and / or fans of any particular characters or ships) but that doesn’t make it OK for certain things to happen.
So here are a few things I feel like have been overlooked lately (mostly in the livechat – I’ve noticed that those active in the forums stay away from threads that will upset them or say their peace and go elsewhere):
1) Love what you love, hate what you hate but know that SOMEBODY in the fandom, probably someone here, even if they’re lurking, loves it.
2) Not wanting something to happen? Does NOT = it won’t happen. Stop telling people things are facts or are impossible just because you don’t want them to happen. Likewise don’t tell people that things have been proven on the show when they haven’t – it gets hopes up (or down) and is inaccurate. This podcast is great about making sure we know what we have or haven’t seen YET and is a great place for clarification on those pesky details. Don’t undermine that.
3) Pointing out that we haven’t seen something proven on the show does not mean that you are starting a shipper war. It means you want official reasons to get behind something 100%. This is not a crime and not everything is said with shipping goggles on. We are free to speculate on whatever we wish until given a reason ON THE SHOW not to. With how many twists and turns they throw us, it’s better to be safe than sorry. (Look at how sure Daniel was on a theory that he offered a bet on a drink he hates! He was still wrong (at least partially so, enough to warrant still having to drink coffee), so let’s keep in mind that it can happen to anyone, shall we?)
4) Telling someone to “get over” their pairing, favorite character, whatever it is (especially when there is nothing on screen to PROVE 100% it can’t happen) is rude and unnecessary.
5) We are NEVER going to love and hate the same things. Be respectful of fellow Oncers, even if they don’t agree with you. It’s ok to agree without being disagreeable and debate away! Interesting things are brought up in discussion. We can argue something until we’re blue in the face and remain on opposite sides, but it’s far more helpful to understand where the other person is coming from than it is to put them down constantly for not agreeing with what you see as obvious before it’s been proven so on the show.
6) Shipping a pair you don’t agree with does NOT make the other person “delusional” – I have heard this many times lately. Some pairings may be more likely than others, but there are definite signs on the show be it quotes, parallels, camera angles, choices, whatever it may be that led that person to thinking there was something there. Nobody wants to ship something only to have their heart broken by it! Nobody wants to be outnumbered and attacked. We ship what we ship because we see something there and love it. That does not make us “delusional,” it makes us passionate about what we love and yes, sometimes defensive. But when we’re being attacked (and by attacked I specifically do NOT mean disagreeing with you, but rather, being called names, told to get over it, etc, etc), can you really blame us?
7) It would be really easy and nice if we were only surrounded by people who love the same things as us, but that is NEVER going to happen. Everyone is entitled to be excited for moments that point them to believe in their favorite character / ship, etc, just as they are entitled to hate any moment etc. That does not mean that one can jump for joy and then try to silence others from doing the same just because it conflicts with what you want to have happen. With as much stuff as we theorize on, there will always be twists we don’t see coming. Always.
8) THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN: If you’re not having fun watching the show, podcast, live-chatting etc, then this probably isn’t the right place to be. If you’re not having fun, why spoil it for others, bring everyone else down, and/or waste your time? It’s perfectly OK to be upset with something on the show. The constant hatred brings it down though and it’s hard to say how much you love someone when you know people are going to jump down your throat for it.
Just my 2 cents but very frustrated right now watching the Oncer family fall apart at the end of the season. We’re all burned out and fried. Goodness knows they tried to throw moments in for pretty much every pairing and all shippers have their own reasons to believe in their ships, however likely or unlikely they may be. But until something is officially shown to us or proven in a way that fits within the mythology of the show in the same way they’ve shown it to us for other pairings, then
STOP WITH THE SHIPPING WARS ALREADY!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantHookian – THANK YOU! I struggled with the Lost stuff a lot because I love Sawyer but didn’t really like Jack (so you would think I would pick the “Sawyer” of the group again this time around). Hearing so many people refer to CS as more Skate, I worried…because they are similar and people point to that as being Skate rather than Jate.
I think it just goes to show we probably can’t use too much Lost logic on Once because they are different shows and even characters filling a similar role at times could be a combo of others rather than just a 1-1 swap out because they are vastly different (especially if I’m actually picking Jack this time around lol!).
I did relate NealFire to Sawyer with the helicopter / portal scenes and I’ve said all along that BOTH guys have a bond with Emma over thieving so it still fits with the con man thing, though I would't go so far as to say that Bae has that side down pat just yet, he gets conned more than he ever cons anyone. I like the direction you’re taking this so again, THANK YOU! I feel so much better now.
I’ve found myself getting very upset the last couple of days because we’re supposed to be a family. We’re ONCERS! And I leave this thread being all happy and full of hope and I venture elsewhere and all I hear is “get over it” or various actors ship SF or “you’re delusional” – it’s very upsetting and I have to come back here to remind myself that we are not crazy and there are real things to hold onto and we just have to let it play out.
We won’t be able to prove anything on either side to anybody until Emma actually CHOOSES one over the other. As much as we can hold on to moments earlier on in the season, until she knows that Neal is alive and sees him again we’ll just have to be patient and ignore the constant hate thrown at us from people who scream “but Neal’s still alive!” and of course my favorite…”take that CSers, Hook will ship SF” *cough* mumbles something *cough*.
Neal being alive is not a hindrance, it gives us legitimate status when she makes a choice. I would be shocked if there isn’t at least a little bit of a triangle because she should have some emotion over it and goodness knows Neal will be upset because he interpreted things differently. Add in the Hook & Bae dynamics of before and of course there’s going to be some drama. I believe I once pointed out a Dawson’s Creek reference to this elsewhere but that too gives me hope (in this case Hook would be Pacey and I am COMPLETELY happy with that analogy 100%)
Notice in 2×21 – she was upset immediately afterwards of course and did her normal we have a job to do, push emotions aside for a bit thing, but the thing she was most focused on was the same thing that allowed her to let Neal go: HENRY. She doesn’t get overly emotional about stuff except when she has to worry about how to tell HENRY that something bad has happened. (She will likely process a lot of her feelings toward Bae while on her adventures in Neverland – I really want her and Hook to swap stories to better understand him and get his backstory).
That being said, being alive is a status of being. Choosing to go back to her when nobody ever has is a choice. This show is about hope and family and choices and learning to eventually do the right thing.
Something I noticed that was interesting: I’ve heard many CS people refer to wearing the necklaces as reminders being a trait that Emma & Hook share in common (and of course, THEIR bean used to be a necklace as well, for Anton). Now, I do agree that Emma’s LINE about the necklace in Manhattan was probably just what popped into her head to defend herself against Neal’s comments because she clearly is still hurt by Neal (which explains why she left Hook up the beanstalk in Tallahassee). Hook’s necklaces I believe he had before Milah so those aren’t really reminders of Milah but probably something else, but they do both wear special necklaces *for whatever reason* and we’ll probably learn that eventually. Kindred Spirits indeed.
The truly interesting thing I came to realize, was that twice this season Emma has tried to have some form of closure: first handing Neal back the Swan necklace, and the 2nd being letting go of him in the portal scene. They were both VERY emotionally charged moments, and she does have lingering feelings from the past which is understandable. Personally I equate that with going back to high school, no matter how successful you may be now, and feeling like the one who doesn’t belong because you’re once again around people who maybe didn’t accept you or thought you’d never amount to anything.
For Emma, she remembers being a teenage girl in love with this man and he’s the father of her child but he also abandoned her. Her last memories of him before now are all emotionally charged ones that she has slipped right back into feeling even though she’s had her walls up for the last decade. Seeing him sparked all of that pain and sadness and she, in a sense, reverted to being that scared teenage girl who was pregnant in jail and had to make a tough choice and let her son go because she couldn’t do it on her own. 10 years later she’s strong and independent and IS taking care of Henry and putting him first.
They still need to have a convo about her having to give Henry up and him being raised by the EQ – I want all of Henry’s story to be a SF backstory as well where these things come to light and an understanding is formed that this isn’t what she chooses now that she has a choice all these years later. As much as Ginny gets in Snow-mode about not preferring the pirate, MM once told Emma not to revert to the person she was before she got to SB…so deep down Snow better feel the same way, regardless of what Ginny wants.
PaleyFest made me think that the writers are heading that way though so *fingers crossed* (they did NOT like her saying that she didn’t want Emma with Hook, or at least the way she worded why she had a problem with it. They all flipped out and said “let’s not go there” and “that was 300 years ago” and changed the subject. I do think Snowing will have more issues with it at first, but as much as Emma loves and needs her family, they better than anyone should know what it’s like to be told to be with someone they don’t love (perfect Daddy!Charming / Emma bonding moment *mumbles something about Charming not wanting to be like King George* – would make a nice parallel back and could be in an ep with a confrontation about King George and/or Emma could simply say “I’ve read your stories. I lived out the Mary Margaret & David Nolan drama when you thought you were married to Kathryn. You more than anyone should understand how I feel. Why can’t you just want me to be happy?” That …would be awesome.
She’s held onto that swan necklace for so long and worn it presumably every day, even after she spent time in Tallahassee looking for Neal and she GAVE IT UP. She handed it to Neal – split second decision to give up something that has been a part of her for over a decade. Something that has meant a lot to her and she gave it up without even having to think about it (and we have never seen her mourn not wearing it either, at least not that I can remember).
I realize she still has the car, I really wanted them to show how THAT convo would go – and maybe we’ll get it when they return to SB, especially if Neal is pushing the issue and is upset which is bound to be true, BUT…that car could also have memories of HENRY. Henry wasn’t adopted until he was 3 weeks old by Regina, and Emma has made comments before regarding parenting and “sometimes all you have is the backseat of the car” – she wanted to give Henry his best chance and walled herself off from caring about him when we first saw her meet him. That doesn’t mean that when he was very little – and all she had was the backseat of a car, THAT car – that she didn’t want to hold on to that in some way.
When asked about true loves JMO (who obviously can’t pick a side…) once said that she felt like HENRY was her true love. In a sense that everything she’s doing now is for him and that’s the only person she can let in fully right now cause it’s her kid and it’s taken a long way to get there etc etc but she does love him very much. HENRY is her main focus, so I could see the bug story playing out when we see what happened when she got out of jail and maybe tried to take care of Henry for a bit and then holds onto the car because of him. She probably at least considered ditching it when she chose to leave Tallahassee but may have decided to keep it because of the Henry memories, even though she walls herself off, she is still sentimental at times – ie: keeping her baby blanket even though she clearly resented being left on the side of the road.
Hookian – Thanks again for the reminder about them wanting him around from the beginning. I have no idea how that would have worked or what obstacles they’d have to overcome in that scenario, but I can’t help feeling like they begged the shipping wars to start when they introduced them fairly close together. Tallahassee is a blessing and a curse! I need to do a complete rewatch at some point (my brain is still fired up and fried from the finale!) but I look forward to finding all of the Hook refereces early on. I don’t remember a lot of them from S1, but it’s been awhile since I watched. I know some have been finding pirate stuff in Emma’s nursery etc so there’s hope!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantCan’t wait to see all the new videos to add to the collection! Love that the muse is coming back to all of us (we have to pass the summer hiatus somehow, right??)
We may be a small group (at least on these forums) but we are mighty! Look at how many pages we have so far!
I cannot express how much I have enjoyed hiding out here as of late. I dip into other sections and give my 2 cents on various theories, but this thread is quickly becoming my home. So a big THANK YOU to my fellow shipmates. The seas may be bumpy but we have a pirate to help us weather any storm!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25Participantsteliokontos1 – Aww, thank you so much! Looking forward to getting back into writing and I think CaptainSwan stuff could be a fun way to do that as a warm-up for my later summer projects (and a way to deal with the long wait for season 3…)
AmyRose – Welcome! This thread has definitely helped me work through some of my worry to where I’m feeling TONS better so I’m glad to hear they’re helping you too! New shipmates are always welcome & I look forward to more posts from you! By the way your English is very good – especially for a third language!
Random CS sidenote (not that it means much but…): isn’t the third Pirates of the Caribbean movie when a certain E. Swann becomes “Captain Swann”…change a few letters and both Swans might have achieved captain status in season 3 π I absolutely love the comparisons I’ve been seeing between PotC & OUAT lately. Killian’s story does remind me a bit of Will and we all know he fell for a Swann too!
I really want Hook to make Emma very important on his ship and would love if we got a little wink and nod too by him calling her Captain Swan at some point – he always said she’d make a good pirate!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
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