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MysteryKat25Participant
It was sad to hear that all the boys were trapped and crying to go home. Poor lost boys 🙁 I’m sorry we didn’t get to see too much of Neverland tonight but hoping we get more soon because I’ve been looking forward to Neverland for ages! So far it seems kinda dark and creepy though…hopefully we see some daylight stuff in the near future.
We still need to find out if Hook had ever been there before (perhaps as a child if this thing wasn’t trapping them back then – he knew exactly what realm to send the bean to after Milah was dead so it’s a question still in my mind and I know some think he might be have been the pan for awhile at least), but Hook and Smee must have arrived not too long before they found Bae because it had already been 6 months and the events with Rumple & Hook weren’t THAT long after Bae went through the portal, especially if Hook is already in Neverland.
As for the shadow that thing was creepy! It was almost wraith-like but then again not *quite*. I agree with the no coincidences thing about it arriving around the same time as Bae going through the portal. Whether it snuck through, or belongs to Bae is a different question.
It could be a literal shadow (like in Disney’s version where he was clearly not attached to his shadow) or it could be a more evil, darker side of Bae that separated on the way in when Rumple let go (we may not know all of the details yet as to what happens when you’re abandoned in a vortex).
The side of me that likes the theory going back to Bae being him relates to a couple of things:
1) All of the evidence that we had earlier on pointing strongly to NealFire being Peter (shadow phone he dropped out the window, where he lived in our world for awhile, etc etc, we’ve been over these elsewhere)
2) Then there are the new things like the timing, it arrived around the same time Bae did
3) The way it behaves – it sounds like a very selfish creature who has made a new family for himself but never, ever wants them to leave, going so far as to trap them there so they can’t, even when crying for their parents. What if there was a small amount of darkness in Bae that before now he was able to keep down (I was going to say “at bay” but a bad pun doesn’t make my argument very valid) and/or was just created from extreme anger while going through the portal and being abandoned, somehow has created its own home where it landed in Neverland and never wants to be abandoned again? I could see a much darker Bae trying to never be left again, while the nice, kind side is hiding out with the Darlings.
4) It’s interesting to note that the shadow did not want Wendy. Bae obviously likes her and has spent time with her whereas the shadow thing has not. Perhaps it realized the situation though when it was there last and knew the only way to convince Bae to go willingly was to make a trade, banking on the kindness in him (the opposite of the shadow side).
It was weird that the shadow could transport anybody to and from Neverland as I don’t think we’ve seen that in any version but it was certainly an interesting twist. I don’t think we’ll know til next season for sure either way but there are many pros and cons to it being some form of Bae and wanting to become whole again which may take some time.
A theory I am going with for now is that, at least for awhile, Hook and Bae have a good relationship. Hook teaches him how to drive the ship, wield a sword etc etc and they are able to keep the shadow away (Bae knows it doesn’t like fire for instance and it left him alone once he dropped into the water and eventually got pulled onto Hook’s ship).
However, once Hook discovers the connection between Bae and Rumple / Milah perhaps from a drawing he does at some point while missing home? Wasn't there some picture that had him holding a picture of what some believed to be Milah? then they would probably have a falling out. (If Bae were to learn the truth about what happened to Milah for instance. I don’t think Hook would start it just because he was so attentive to the shawl because it was made by Milah, I doubt he would intentionally hurt her son unless he had no other choice. He might however at least think about it and/or lash out abit because of the Rumple connection.
If all of that plays out how I’m thinking it might, then it would eventually turn Bae against him to lead the lost boys and perhaps at that point, reunite with his shadow if that is in fact his.
I’m wary to go with it 100% even though I’ve been a big proponent of the NealFire Pan theory since sooo many things have pointed that way but I just don’t know what to do with that weird shadow pan!
The writers have said we won't find out who Peter is until S3, as well as that there are some twists in Bae's story that nobody's guessed so far – I think part of that could be living with the Darlings, and if the shadow theory is correct, even saying he's NealFire Pan isn't *really* guessing his whole story. Next week should hopefully clear that up with more Bae & Hook interaction I hope.
[adrotate group="5"]Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantOk why is Charming punching Hook when he didn't remotely go after the guy who put his baby in jail and left her all alone, causing her to give up his grandson to the Evil Queen? I'm with JMO, when is DaddyCharming going after Neal, not Hook?
I guess he'll probably blame Hook for what's going on since Hook is seen with Tamara & Greg but from the snippet on the abc site, Hook sounds like he's “playing along” but doesn't sound convincing like he really wants to be a part of something. I'm hoping since he's at Emma's that he's there to warn and help them. PLEASE let that be the case. I need to show off the good side of Hook, pronto. Thanks for that crazyfox, much appreciated tonight!
As for the rest, I’ve noticed it a lot in the chat room for the east coast (especially extreme Hook hate) and I try not to let it get me down too much, especially since I know at least a few of us post in here and love him / CaptainSwan but seeing all the jumping up and down celebrating and specifically calling out saying that CaptainSwan is dead is unnecessary/sickening. (And this is said from somebody who sees potential in both sides of the triangle though I obviously love CS more at least until they give me somebody worthy of shipping Hook with as a backup).
I guess I just hoped that people would be more respectful. I’ve never really been involved in a fandom online so much before and love the atmosphere around here most of the time but there’s been so much hate this season for one thing or another. Really wish we had Hook around last season like he was supposed to be, then maybe things would be turned around a bit by now.
There’s really no reason to dance for joy somebody else is unhappy. I think literally the only thing we all agree on right now is hating Tamara (I haven’t heard of one Tamara fan) but tonight just really irked me even though I liked the SwanFire moments. Guess I was being too nice in being happy that somebody got moments they can survive on for the forseeable future while I anxiously await CS ones. Seriously did I just reinvent / imagine PaleyFest??
If we have nothing to go on positive all summer I’m going to be livid. This was the first ship I got invested in fully (though I do like RumBelle and Snowing) and the writers keep giving us hope and then dashing it. If they didn’t do that so much I wouldn’t have bothered getting so invested in it but you can feel it from Tallahassee if you’re open to seeing it (I get being blinded by one side or the other but I do try to see where others are coming from and I get it) and I just feel like we’ve been slapped around. *sigh* Is it next Sunday yet? I want Hook backstory; Hook & young Bae having an awesome relationship and getting along; and Hook coming to the rescue to tell the Charmings what Greg & Tamara are up to as well as Hook comforting Emma because if anybody can be upset and get under his skin it's her and he gets the pain and knows what she's feeling as he's been there so it could be a really sweet bonding moment.
PS: Thanks RG for being an awesome moderator. *Cookies all around for so many feels from this ep, regardless of what they are* – I may be livid that CSers are getting shafted after the hints from PaleyFest, podcasts early on etc. but I do want Oncers to be happy and enjoy whatever they may enjoy. Just sick of the negative celebrations and anxiously awaiting Emma & Hook interaction as there has been very little as of late.
PPS: in regards to the posts since I tried to submit
Thanks again Obisgirl for that awesome picture! We definitely need it right now.
Also thanks for the link. It’s stuff like that that keeps giving me hope but for once I just don’t see how it could possibly connect any time soon based on what happened tonight. If they hadn’t said what they said then maybe, but they did so it’s still going to affect her for awhile. I feel like they changed the course partway through but then that would be majorly teasing the audience and I don’t think they’d backtrack on something that big that’s clearly going to upset half their fanbase who was promised something like that (they get equal love and hate for both Hook and Neal not to mention the ships).
We only have 1 ep left this season and Emma’s going to be raw and then we’ve got big stuff happening…hopefully they’ll at least get some interaction & good bonding moments giving us hope for next season? I’ve felt like they were kindred spirits from the get go but with what just happened they certainly can’t jump into any meaningful moment unless Hook is just nice to her and gives her a shoulder to cry on. I can’t root for anything more than that right now because it would feel too reboundy and we’d never hear the end of it / wouldn’t bode well for longterm future.
Can we PLEASE get those interviews we were promised already so that we can get some good news for our ship too? (I really hate that this triangle divides the fandom so much, but I guess it’s easier to spew hatred for something someone else loves than it is to profess your love for something others hate. I see where they’re coming from and why they love it but Hook gets SO much negative attention that I feel the constant need to defend him =/)
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantThere should definitely be lots more Hook and hopefully he can change peoples minds a bit. I’m seriously sick and tired of reading all the Hook hatred and people are now celebrating in other threads saying that “everything will be alright. CaptainSwan is dead.” … Seriously??
Having serious trouble biting my tongue over there even though I get why they’re celebrating and they have every right to but that’s not very respectful. It’s like cheering that Graham died or August was turned back into a boy – it killed somebody’s ships. We’re all Oncers here, can’t we get along / be respectful of everybody liking different things? It’s one thing to celebrate something good for YOUR character / ship / etc, but to celebrate that somebody else in the fandom isn’t getting what they want is seriously upsetting. I thought we were better than that around here.
I get the SwanFire stuff, they had good moments tonight, first time I’ve actually liked them a bit but they have a long way to go to win me over completely just because of the stuff from the past that still hasn’t been addressed fully.
They can enjoy it for this week and maybe even the whole summer *sigh* but I hope we get something in the future to give us some hope again. Seriously what happened to all those hints that were leaning strongly in CS’s favor?? What gives?
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantSomething to add:
Depending on how long Emma believes Neal to be dead, she may eventually open her heart to someone else (just like she did before after Neal the first time around, and then Graham). It may take awhile so we may not get tons next week (grrr, we were promised and there were HUGE hints at PaleyFest!) but now that’s blown out of the water. Hopefully next season it’s there.
So it’ll be 1 of 2 things:
1) Neal is found quickly and they start something but then finally address the past / figure out they’re different people and the important thing is to be around for Henry
2) Emma believes Neal to be dead for quite some time, eventually opens up to Hook (hopefully after a realistic amount of time which means waiting a;lskjdfa;slkd) and then is deeply into that when Neal shows back up and the triangle truly begins again.
I’m kinda liking the first option actually, more hope for endgame even if we have to bite our tongues and listen to everyone else celebrate for awhile.
I really feel like even though they get equal love and hate for both ships that we’ve been shafted, because they kept hinting at it and then bam, huge SwanFire moments and nothing for us.
They’re either ending the triangle and giving us somebody else for Hook, or making us wait cause with what they did tonight there’s no way we’re getting a lot of CS goodness next week unless Hook is super understanding and comforts her? (Oh hey, there’s a good idea…that could be good, but then we’d have to listen to cries of “Rebound!!!” for forever)
I’m not liking the looks of it right now….starting to panic…
Love Dylan, am happy we’re seeing him but really sad he couldn’t end up with Wendy or something (unless that’s still a possibility, or perhaps a descendant or something).
I need hope people! I get the appeal of SwanFire but I was under the impression it would be a real triangle and BOTH sides would have something to work with this season. *SIGH*
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantI just don’t get what happened…did we imagine all the CS goodness that was promised to us?
How is their interaction going to remotely fun / flirtatious etc if she’s mourning the loss of NealFire??
I can see both sides, I really can but I do have a preference and it’s CaptainSwan all the way!!!!!
I get that Neal & Emma said what they said because they were both kinda sure he was going to die on the other end of the portal (doubtful, but that’s what they believed…) and that when we do find him safe and sound they probably will skirt around it for a bit and maybe give it a go but they still have a lot of issues to work out that I will be furious if Emma just brushes them under the rug!
I’m almost kinda hoping it takes him so long to get back into the picture that Hook is able to step in but not too fast (no rebounds, totally destroys it).
I was hoping back in Tallahassee that she would have started something with Hook long before Neal came back into the picture but now….what happened?!?!?
I do get both sides but I coulda sworn we were supposed to get a lot of Hook & Emma too….*screams*
If we have to get used to the other for endgame then fine I’ll deal with it eventually but right now they were supposed to give us something good and now all I’m hearing is SwanFire fans celebrating endgame at the end of S2. I need help!!! *stares at the picture Obisgirl gave us* *tries to breathe*
On the bright side we should be getting lots of Hook next week and I’m looking forward to seeing how he is with young Bae (I adore Dylan – can we go back to shipping Bae with Wendy or Morraine or somebody who isn’t Emma in the long run?? grrrrr I don’t wannnna give up on my ship) 🙁
We were promised better than this. What happened??
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantQuestion because my mind is drawing a blank: is the game changer for sure this ep or just part of the 2 part finale meaning we could see it next week instead? There’s so much for the 2 stories and they’re all connected and that definitely sounds like finale-esque stuff but it’s becoming a split-finale so no telling!
Looking forward to deciphering it once and for all but was just curious if we had confirmation it was part of this ep or if it’s speculation. With so many theories, hints, clues, interviews, etc etc flying around I’m having trouble keeping up with everything else going on!
*passes out cookies while we wait for the new ep!*
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantThat is gorgeous! So creative, can’t wait to see the finished product!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantI’ll go with Obisgirl on this. That opening narration has always bugged me. He can’t have been a kid but the numbers never added up right either.
I think it was just poorly worded explained. I like the idea that he was 19 or whatever (old enough to be in charge / not have parents that are doing a spectacularly awful job and/or missing and leaving him in charge alone) and then have it be 21 years from that moment and the last visitor was there around 10 years ago but the 21st year is running out now.
It’s never made a ton of sense but glad I’m not the only one bugged by the awful wording! I really think it had to be 21st year of the curse and not 21st year of being alive, it just doesn’t compute any other way if the last time people were there it was 10 years ago!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25ParticipantThat’s the only issue I have with it as well, Emma is her own character – nothing else.
That being said, I’ve seen many parallels over time relating her to many stories and I think some of them might be little nods but for the most part it’s likely that it just sets her up as being plausible for coming from a FTL family. Anything that relates her to the world of fairy tales is a good thing and makes her “fit in” with the rest, so there are lots of different stories she has little connections to but I love when people discover these and share them so thank you!
There are a lot of them from Tinkerbell apparently (who knew?) which is great cause she should fit in with the Neverland crowd just fine then. 🙂 (Which is good since it looks like the 2 potential love interests in her life might have something to do with Neverland since it looks like NealFire spent some time there since he knows Hook, and then of course, Hook himself).
I know back in the beginning I connected her a lot to the story of Sleeping Beauty as well (cursed hazy sleepy town until their princess reawoke/arrived back there etc) but H&K have been pretty good about saying she’s just Emma so I guess we can just enjoy the nods and be happy that she fits in in both the real world and FTL so well. 🙂
Thanks for sharing though, those nods are really cool!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
MysteryKat25Participant@RumplesGirl wrote:
OK. To put this all in one post, here is what we’ve got:
Neal is the one who dies, but it is not a true death. It is his soul that is perhaps sucked out by the Wraith and taken to the Wraith's land where Neal meets MAP. The fail safe is tied to Neal's continual existence as a whole person, so when he loses his soul SB begins to come apart and maybe people start disappearing back to FTL as the town leaves our world
That certainly sounds plausible. Thanks for the concise recap RG!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
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