[playarita]

The choices are tough. I love Belle but I also love Rumple. I chose Belle because she has been a favorite character since I was a little girl. But I wish they would do a promo with both Belle and Rumple together.

[playarita]

@Andreth Stark wrote:

However, in that same lecture, he said, on regards of literary belief: “Children” (and I add; all of us, no matter our age) “are capable, of course, of literary belief, when the story-maker’s art is good enough to produce it. That state of mind has been called “willing suspension of disbelief.” But this does not seem to me a good description of what happens. What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful “sub-creator.” He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is “true”: it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside. If you are obliged, by kindliness or circumstance, to stay, then disbelief must be suspended (or stifled), otherwise listening and looking would become intolerable. But this suspension of disbelief is a substitute for the genuine thing, a subterfuge we use when condescending to games or make-believe, or when trying (more or less willingly) to find what virtue we can in the work of an art that has for us failed.”

In this respect, when the writers make things happen with a “magic” or “destiny” or “have faith” explanation, they fail as storymakers. They drive us out of the Secondary World, and it is a painful travelling, since we leave there characters and stories we love as old friends, “secondary world’s” friend we can not look at in the same way anymore.

The only thing I wanted to point out was that if destiny as it pertains to the red thread of fate/destiny is a natural law in their world then wouldn’t a scenario like this draw us deeper into that world. One thing I am not understanding is that with literary belief is that the world a story is set in has its own set of rules, its own natural order, its own physics, its own society etc. So for me the Bae/Emma scenario works because it works under the natural order of FTL. At doesn’t it though? Hasn’t the story been showing impossible circumstances where people are drawn together because of fate/destiny (Snow White and Prince Charming, Nova and Grumpy etc). Many of the love stories within the show are operating well outside of what this world would deem possible because of own beliefs, our own limitations etc… but that doesn’t remove the the possibility of these seemingly impossible events happening in their world.

I understand what you are saying but I always thought that to mean more in the circumstances where within something happens in that world, or specific era of time where anachronisms occur that ruins one’s immersion. For instance writing a regency era fiction and mentioning articles of clothing that would not have existed, or peppered with slang/speech too modern etc. Or within an alternate universe of a familiar world (let’s say our own) where something occurs that until that point would have been impossible: like in a world that still uses steam yet to discover electricity including certain technologies such as items that rely on electricity etc.

[playarita]

@Andreth Stark wrote:

@playarita wrote:

I don’t really see how his apprehension, and surliness means he is immature. He is an adult who grew up with the belief that Rumple loved his power more, that he chose that power over him. That can have a profound effect on a boy on the cusp of adulthood. Furthermore he was dumped from what a feudalistic FTL into our world (depending on if he is Peter Pan, or he crossed time and space and landed in the early 1980s… that is a lot of world to learn on one’s own especially with his background.

Precisely because he has had time to live in our world -and in others? – , and because in all that time, he had probably seen how low, cruel, twisted and evil can human soul be. How power corrupts the best among mankind, if the power comes too soon, before it could be handled in a wise manner.
Don’t misunderstand me; i’m not saying he should run into his father’s arms. But neither being blinded by frustration and pain. You have time to reject your father’s explanations, reasons, or presence in your life, but as much as let him speak… even if you are not accepting what he says, at least it can help you to know everything. To avoid nightmares.
Maybe it is just my understanding of life, but no matter what happened, being stubborn against something in that way is sort of childish.
As i said, maybe it is just my understanding of life.[/quote]

That is true and I understand your sentiment I guess I can understand why Neal acted the way he did. Mostly because given his circumstances I would not have found it not believable that someone who did not want to be found would be reasonable to the father he believes abandoned him because of a love and corruption of power.

I thought that his not wanting to listen was also based on the fact that he interrupted his dad who was about to hurt Emma (because she did not hold up her end of the deal). Gold would have used his cane (or attempted it since Emma can hold her own in a fight) but in Neal’s memories when someone crossed Rumple they were squashed, suffocated etc. Neal may have feared that while there was no magic in our world Rumple could have found a way around it–he did find a way around the curse of leaving Storybrooke after all.

Lastly, Neal grew up with knowing how easily Rumple could turn a phrase or use his elocution skills against others so simply being told the reasons, the promises, the declarations would mean nothing without proof. And in the episode Rumple did two things that could easily turn Neal/Bae cold-hearted: he mentioned that there was magic in Storybrooke (the very thing that corrupted Rumple, and became his addiction/crutch) and his threatening harm to Emma when he realized she did not hold up her end of the deal (which reminded him of the people Rumple hurt as the Dark One)…

Rumple is going to have to work on his relationship with Bae. However that could be the sacrifice: knowing that the son you found you alive wants nothing to do with you.

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@RumplesGirl wrote:

I think Neal is still TOTALLY in love with Emma. He’s just very shocked to see her. Which brings up a point I was wondering: he didn’t seem to realize it was Emma, so why was he running?

I think he knew that Rumple was going to find him in some way. However I don’t think he was expecting Rumple as Mr. Gold in a suit. He was thinking of using-the-force Dark One and the hell that came along with it (i.e. Rumple could have figured out a way of bringing magic to the world, or as we saw him when the first season started–the not so nice landlord)

Personally I think Emma and Neal are going to reconnect–at least first on the level of understanding each other. I think she is going to understand why Neal did not want to find out (or at least learn about what Gold was like in the early years) and why he had to let her go. Neal may feel responsible for Emma being ripped apart from her family, and being alone in this world. If he had not sought out the BF or had not failed in bringing Rumple to the world without magic–Emma would have grown up with a family.

However something good did happen and that was Henry. I believe Henry is going to be the one to connect all of them (as Snow and Charming noted.. the very messed up family tree 😆 ).

As for whether they will love again I am not sure. I do believe that they were (are?) each other’s true loves. Whether or not it will be rekindled is something we will have to see. It is possible that Emma moves on (or at least tries to with several characters–Hook comes to mind, don’t see August–I see more of a swift kick to his sensitive area, and not sure who else).

[playarita]

@malchore wrote:

Tiara – I don’t understand the need for the spoiler tag on your entire post.

Short answer: For me, fiction needs to be internally consistent. It has to have some level of plausibility within the context of the story and world it inhabits. I am an atheist which means I don’t just accept things on faith alone. And that’s what the writers gave us tonight; an episode that said, “just accept this plot turn on faith, we cannot offer any rational explanation.” I can suspend my disbelief for Fantasy and Sci-Fi stories because they can be written with plausibility and consistency within their world.

And so, Bae meeting Emma on blind luck alone is so implausible it broke my belief in the story.

This story doesn’t rely on faith alone. It is relying on mythology based on the idea of fate and destiny. I think Emma wearing a red scarf was to denote this idea that there is a red thread of destiny/fate.

She was the end of the curse. She was the savior to break the curse and free Storybrooke. Bae on the other hand is the beginning of the curse. He was the motivation in having the curse cast. So in terms of storytelling, that is actually a great plot and really does emphasize that FTL characters are connected to each other with these intricate red threads of fate/destiny.

Emma had to meet Bae. He was the one that could help progress her destiny. By their being together Henry was born. August then had Henry arranged to be adopted by Regina. That eventually led to the curse being broken.

The whole show runs on some faith but more in the belief that as much as one can see into the future, the red thread of fate/destiny will have people land where they need to. All of these characters are much more closely related like a grand puzzle each has their own piece that fits into the bigger picture–perhaps the magic within calls to each other unknowingly, or their roles help create that destiny (an example is the story between Grumpy and Nova–had he not been born a dwarf set to mine the mines, he would have never come across the fairy dust that would lead him to Nova).

[playarita]

@Andreth Stark wrote:

Yep, I get that point, but I don’t know, it is a difficult issue to explian…just… I had so many expectations on Bae -as a child-!
I mean.. he was more emotionally more mature than his dad, even being a child of 14. I just expected time and experience gave him more insight that what he shows. Not only the fact of becoming a thief -that can perfectly fit the scenary you explain, it is completely understandable, he was broken and lonely – but… he doesn’t even give the chance to his father. Ok, he left him, bleblabla, (and besides, that Rumpelstiltskin’s “oh, no prob: let me turn back the clock and recover the wasted years” was an epic fail given the circunstances) but when Emma told him that he made her the same that his father did to him is all like “oh, c’mon sweetheart! I know you’remadat me but it was not that much!”. So, from my pointof view, he has changed from be a mature teenager to be an inmature man.This is just a silly example XDD It is just that i can’t find the proper way to explain what i meant by how he grew up :S :S

I think he remembers Gold as the Dark One and as the conniving, curmudgeon old man that Emma, Henry and we have seen him as. He would have had a lot more vivid memory of Gold turning a man into a cockroach because he accidentally bumped into his son. With memories like that which are bleak in itself and he himself saying that the last thing he remembers before going to bed is when Rumple let him go… Years of having these memories fester and that recurring nightmare… shaped him to someone who did not want to be found.

I don’t really see how his apprehension, and surliness means he is immature. He is an adult who grew up with the belief that Rumple loved his power more, that he chose that power over him. That can have a profound effect on a boy on the cusp of adulthood. Furthermore he was dumped from what a feudalistic FTL into our world (depending on if he is Peter Pan, or he crossed time and space and landed in the early 1980s… that is a lot of world to learn on one’s own especially with his background.

I can see why he is jaded, or why he went into thievery. I don’t think he necessarily wanted to turn out that way but he was so overwhelmed by his memories, the modern world etc that he did everything he could to survive. The fact that he ended up the way he did (he seemed street smart, had enough wit to survive etc) shows that he is intelligent. Had he a proper chance I am sure he would have been a man of great standing. However that is not to say he won’t be a man of great standing…people can change.

[playarita]

Raised by spinsters means he might have been raised by the unmarried aunts of the family. That could have lead to an unhappy circumstance (think Jane Eyre) where if he had a congenital defect (the limp) then he would have been ostracized by his family. He may have to have taught himself to read, write etc and been forced to learn a trade versus schooling etc. If it was because of the war then even more so.

[playarita]

@Surayya wrote:

@playarita wrote:

I have always thought Hook as the byronic hero. Now that said are there any byronic heroes (think Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights) that did not have an unhappy ending. If not then are there other character archetypes that have the same beginning–or similar in that there is a lost love, or something tragic that happens but less tragic endings? I found a rather good list here and it be interesting to explore which archetype Hook might fit.

Hehe, the definition of a byronic hero (aside from the young bit) fits Rumple as well 😆 😉
I guess I can see how Hook could fit the definition, but we have yet to find out if he’s distressed by a terrible wrong he himself committed in the past, or if if that was in fact just Rumple killing his wife which put him over the edge.
I’m sure something happened in his past which meant he had to ‘grow up’ fast & fend for himself vigorously to have become a pirate captain in the 1st place (kind of makes me want to watch stardust again- De Niro gives Pirates everywhere hope of redemption lol 😉 😆 )- I just hope we get to see that story- even if Peter isn’t in it (or he turns out to be Peter 😕 )!

And I just pictured Hook in a saloon dress, heels, a wig and makeup… 😛

[playarita]

@Phee wrote:

@playarita wrote:

@Phee wrote:

People’s views of Onciverse Hook can be quite polarising. You either think he’s completely shallow, or incredibly deep. I’m the latter, but can see how others could take him at face value and be turned off. It’s not really that different of a situation to Rumple. People either think he’s the ultimate evil, or the ultimate candidate for redemption.

For me what is really getting to me is that I have no problem with posters like yourself because you come across as extremely level-headed and approach characters, and situations within the show that are incredibly thought-provoking and deep.

Thank you. 🙂 Think it’s the Pisces in me. We get all OCD when it comes to considering all angles, which makes us notoriously indecisive, but also notoriously empathetic to varying points of view…which doesn’t help the indecisiveness. 😛

I’m a Sag so I think I like to poke people with my “arrow” to bug them even though I do take lengths to not take it too far. xD

[playarita]

@MysteryKat25 wrote:

I think the trolling is regarding all the threads lately that just try to rile up Hook fans about is the actor ok, is the character leaving etc etc (it’s gotten old, fast).

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just be respectful about it.

That I agree with. 😀 I definitely think it depends on how it is presented but I wholly agree with your sentiment regarding some of the threads. I really did dislike the hullabaloo about his being sick only because that had the intent of riling anyone (especially since serious illness is always sad). Those kind of threads bring a lot of negativity to any person reading it.

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