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I can see your point however I wouldn’t necessarily call it racism for the reason that racism is bullying based on someone’s race or skin colour.
no it’s not. racism is an institution that oppresses certain groups and favours others(usually white people). this is what is meant when we talk about racism.
and please don’t bring up the dictionary definition argument either. there are any number of problems with that, so i’m just asking you respectfully not to do it.
SQ isn’t happening and it’s not because they’re both women. There is too much history between Regina and Emma’s family. If none of that history had happened and Regina was just the woman who adopted Henry who might still have been an evil queen but without the Snow connection, then I might’ve rooted for SQ as a romantic pairing. But as it currently stands, the Snow connection makes SQ unable to work romantically, still ship them as a friendship though.
this doesn’t stop anyone from shipping OQ and CS despite the awkward connections. also, that’s only an issue according to your standards. most people don’t really care about that, except to use as an excuse to shoot down SQ.
just because someone say it’s not because of racism, or not because of homophobia doesn’t mean it’s not a thing. most people aren’t experts in recognising cognitive biases etc. whereas when you’ve lived that life you kind of have to be to some degree.
[adrotate group="5"]I don't cause commotions, I am one.
It’s definitely a big issue. When they choose white actors to play relatives of white actors’ characters (or younger dopplers), that…makes sense. And given the talents of ALL the actors it’s difficult to complain about most of the casting choices they’ve made. But when they constantly squander opportunities to include PoCs in a relevant way, it is a really, really big issue. If they’d made Mulan instead of Will a regular, the fandom would have cheered. They could have given Cruella whatever she wants before Ursula. A thousand little choices that they’ve made that could add up to a more diverse and interesting cast.
Also: Did the Author need to be a white guy? Did Lily need to be played by a white woman so she could be Mal’s daughter(why not make the father Latino? unless they’re going with the “True love potion” thing which they really shouldn’t) Did they have to cast white actors for Anna/Elsa when it would have been a great chance to cast inuit or saami actors(Saami is unlikely, but there definitely would have been inuit actors available)? Even for Kristoff, who wears a Saami inspired outfit? Did the Sorcerer’s Apprentice have to be a white guy? Did Walsh? Did Hook? Did anyone?
This is why I hate the “token” or “writing to a quota” argument because people keep casting white actors when they really don’t have to. There is a concious or sub-concious effort to either look for or favour white actors in casting. There’s also been a distinct lack of non european folk tales, not that there is any reason why you can’t have fantasy europe filled with PoC(Real medieval europe, in fact, had a lot more PoC than you’d think due to active trade routes, the Moors, the Romani, etc.). With Aladdin, we only got the villain. Not to mention there’s so many stories from the likes of 1001 Nights, and Arabic, Quranic, general Middle Eastern myths and folklore. It would have been great to at least namedrop Scheherazade in the author plot, given she is one of the most legendary story tellers there is. Or Anansi, a character more recently popularised by Neil Gaiman. Did they bother? No.
They’ve just made no real effort to make room for PoC characters. They seem to relegate them to plots and characters they don’t really care about or put much effort into(Rapunzel comes to mind). They are vastly more likely to be villains, one shot characters, or to die or leave. OUAT has just taken it to an extreme after last night and will only get worse from what I know from spoilers.
It’s inexcusable, and yes, it’s racist. On top of amazingly heteronormative, not that most TV shows aren’t but when they KNOW they have such a huge queer & PoC fanbase this just becomes all the more ridiculous. Even if they delivered on SQ, a queer inter-racial couple, it doesn’t change the overall story being such a rough ride that made this instance look like an extreme exception instead of a healthy progression.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
it was just handled so badly overall. my only hope is that this gets re-retconned somehow and Zelena’s been playing at a longer game.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
I wouldn’t necessarily call it racist. The way I’ve referred to the big shocker since we first figured out what it is, “It’s a plot device to fix the failed plot device.” The failed plot device was re-introducing Marian at the end of 3B. But then adding Marian back into the mix made Robin look like a jerk, but it made Regina look like a saint. And of course, there was a negative backlash from fans. A lot of Outlaw Queen fans were turned off by that love triangle. Adam and Eddy, being the trolls that they are, needed a quick fix — enter Zelena. Zelena was the answer to fixing the failed plot device, Marian in this case. I also think, Adam and Eddy don’t write to fill quotas. They write a story.
Sorry, but the “to fill quotas” argument is just incorrect. If you’re writing responsibly there should be no issues with representation. You’re acting like there’s no racism involved in the undercasting of PoC in Fantasy & Sci-Fi(or the presence of Queer characters for that matter) but it IS a racist practice in of itself. Like I said, a lot of people simply don’t understand how racism works and manifests itself.
Why is it that when people write “to tell a story” that story so often revolves around conventionally attractive cishet white people?
If you’re under-representing and mistreating PoC on the show, it’s racism. It might be unconscious racism, but you’re still making decisions that have racist undertones to them so I don’t even buy the intent argument(and anyway, intent is not magic). Just look at all of the PoC that ere introduced as one note characters, killed, or went evil or disappeared. Oh wait, that’s ALL the PoC on the show. Regina is the only PoC we see regularly now and she’s constantly tortured by people.
What kind of message does that sent to non-white people watching? I know several WoC who have stopped watching due to how abhorrently racist the show can be, and you think it’s okay to just turn around and say “Well actually I don’t think it’s technically really racist?” Do you think PoC are just being silly and the white writers and showrunners know best?
Because there are words for that sort of mindest(one starts with W and the other with S) and they’re not nice. But people care vastly more about being accused of racism or turning a blind eye to discrimination or bigotry than they do to actual racism in the first place. And that’s a problem. The most you’re going to get is to be told that your favourite show is racist. Whereas PoC have to deal with feeling alienated in their fandoms constantly, not being represented in their favourite shows, and running the risk of being displayed as a stereotype, written out, fridged, or otherwise mistreated to forward the plot for the white leads.
And it’s the same thing with the Queer fanbase, so you can see why SQ et. all are the way they are if you actually stop to reflect for a minute. We’re treated terribly and we constantly have to put up with people making excuses as to why it’s okay.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
Like…
my issue with that is, Aladdin and Jasmine come from a fictional country that’s clearly a FTL reflection of the middle east/muslim countries. Their real life equivalents would clearly be Muslim. There are almost no Muslim/Middle Eastern character on TV in positive roles, possibly due to the fact that the US(And much of the non muslim world) is violently Islamophobic.
So given how bad OUAT is on race I’m reeeeally not sure I put much stock in them sticking their foot into Middle Eastern characters. With Agribah in Wonderland it was clearly FTL but when they start running with real life equivs. we’re going to run into issues.
I feel like Jafar’s kind of been done too. I’d like to see him come back into the main show but not as the big bad.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
Are you all basing the fact that young Lily is Latina because of the way the actress looks or because you know the actress is a Latina? If you’re basing it on knowing that the actress is a Latina, and projecting that onto the character of Lily then that isn’t the show’s fault. That’s your perception and conclusion. Plus if you make the correlation of Lily/Emma to Regina/Emma that doesn’t mean Lily is a Latina. It just means the essence of the relationship is similar. Change Lily to African-American or Asian but keep all else the same, the essence remains. Now we can assume or know the actress is Latina by her last name. But based on the picture posted earlier and looking at her physical characteristics she looks like Romanian, French, Lebanese, Ukranian, Russian women/girls I know. Watching the episode with Lily and Emma, it never crossed my mind that Lily was a Latina. What crossed my mind was the similarities and parallels between the relationships and situation. Lily could have been Larry and the similarities of the situation would have been the same.
^This.I do agree OUAT has a horrible track record of POC…But, I’m sorry but I have a friend who looks like young Lilly, and is French, a friend that is Mexican and looks like Emma. We can’t make judgments based off of looks or names nowadays.
Race is somewhat fluid and there are exceptions to these rules. Quite possibly your french friend has mixed heritage, and any mexican person who looks like Emma is going to have to have a lot of white heritage.
It doesn’t change the general case that Latina women are under-represented, that they cast a Latina actress and that she clearly looked Latina.
Remember the problem is taking roles away from WoC.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
However, if Agnes was the best person for the job and they’ve made her look enough like the younger actress in order to pass as the same person then I’ve got no complaints.
Asking an actress to dye her hair dark to better resemble a WoC is pretty gross to begin with.
Also, it’s very convenient how often the “best person for the job” is a white woman. We need to stop pulling this argument because it makes the assumption that there isn’t a WoC who’s just as good(if not better) which ignores the reality of racism and exclusion.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
I’m well aware that “Latina” and “Hispanic” aren’t one race, but the point is that is that Lily was clearly played by a non-white or at least racially ambiguous actress and is now being played by a white woman. It’s taking roles away from women of colour.
I think we should be critical of yet more white women being cast in this show, anyway. It’s gotten crazy at this point – OUAT had a race problem going into this season and did nothing but add more white characters, with the exception of Ursula who got written off after 4 episodes. It’s crazy.
The truth is when it comes to racism is that it’s white people, and the wider institution they represent that are “stuck on race”. It’s very victim blamey to throw the buck back at other PoC or people advocating for this case and not those who continually undercast PoC in everything. Focusing on race when there is a race problem is a good thing. Problems don’t get better by not talking about them.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
“If you’re basing it on knowing that the actress is a Latina, and projecting that onto the character of Lily then that isn’t the show’s fault.”
The character clearly isn’t white and looks very archetypically Latina.
The point is taking roles away from PoC actresses.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
I have an issue with everyone calling adult Lily “miscasting”. The casting call for young Lily described her as “”a bright, self-reliant teen who boasts a charming, take-no-prisoners punk exterior and the heart of a secretive, insecure opportunist”. No where did it specify for a Latina actress. Perhaps they chose a dark haired and eyed actress who maybe could be paralleled to Regina, but did not necessarily need to be. Lana is only half Latina, her mother being Italian. They could just as easily have chosen anyone of southern European heritage to play the part if they wanted the actress to look like Lana. Why pigeonhole an actress as “Latina” when the part was given on merit and not ethnicity? The actress who played young Lily did a great job and I personally didn’t look at her onscreen and think of her as being cast because she was any particular ethnicity.
Basically what you’re saying is “Why not give white women a chance?” when we have white women coming out of our ears on this show. The problem is that it doesn’t cut both ways – PoC characters are vastly under-represented in this show. The “european fairy tales” excuse doesn’t cut it. There are countless versions of those tales and nothing is stopping them from casting PoC in those roles if they want. There is a successful all-black version of the Wizard of Oz.
So it’s offensive to take a character who was originally portrayed by a Latina actress and give it to a white woman. It doesn’t matter if the casting call didn’t specify Latina – the character of Lily we saw was not white. It’s rolling back on what little racial representation OUAT has. It’s a bad thing – no matter what.
Also even if Lana is “half Latina” she’s still visibly not quite white and many Italians don’t look quite white either and are often considered their ethnicity. In fact many Italians share the same Haplogroups as semites. Also, Lana considers herself Latina, so respect that. It’s about culture as much as anything. Frida Kahlo was only “half Mexican” but is still considered a Mexican icon, and via her personal presentation opposed colonialist standards of beauty.
Listen to what Rumplesgirl said – for ANY reason.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
