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@CaptainEala Oh, wow!! I knew I should have started re watching from the beginning of the series again!! I have no excuse now – we are buried under a foot of snow – the state of Indiana is literally closed – and my son is home from school for an additional two days since the governor ordered the schools closed here. I guess I’ll have to start my rewatch now!
That is no accident about the bail out parallel!! I can’t wait to see it now.
You know what I wondered about?? Did anyone notice in 3×11 that Henry asked for cinnamon on his hot chocolate because Emma forgot but she didn’t put any on her hot chocolate?? Did Henry like cinnamon on his hot chocolate in SB?? I don’t remember him liking it, only Emma. And it seemed like they were trying to show that now Henry likes it but Emma doesn’t and that was confusing to me.
[adrotate group="5"]Am I the only one who wonders how Milah and Rumple ended up together?? They seem to me to be an oddly paired couple. Considering that so far we have Rumple’s early story about how he was abandoned by his father which sounds like it left him pretty scarred and it doesn’t appear that Rumple’s new life after Malcom led to a life of much more than poverty. Milah seemed to be much more worldly and adventurous than Rumple even before Hook showed up and before Rumple clubbed himself. It seemed like Milah had given up some kind of very different life to marry Rumple.
I have heard many people talk about how Milah loved Rumple until Hook stole her. I’m not slamming Milah – I’m kind of also in the camp of people who are just kind of “meh” about her – but I have always had the feeling that she NEVER loved Rumple and I have NO IDEA how they ever met or why they even got married. I have the impression she thought she was going to have a different kind of life with Rumple than she ended up with. So I always kind of felt like she loved Bae but felt like she was never supposed to have married Rumple and wasn’t really a good mother so it was easy for her to choose to leave with Hook. But then when she found someone who she felt she was better suited with she realized she made a mistake abandoning her child – kind of like Hook brought out he best in Milah.
Glad to see everything is cooler around here
I actually have a question that’s been bugging me for a while.
In Dark Hollow Hook said to Emma about the kiss:
“Because I was hoping it meant something.”
And she responded with
“What meant something, was that you told us Neal was alive.”
Now, SF are saying that this means that the kiss meant nothing to Emma. And you guys have never actually talked about it here! Any insights into what Emma meant?
Here’s what I think. If Emma had been in normal walls-up Emma mode, she would have some snappy come back about the kiss. But she had already realized that she has feelings for Killian and the fact that he had already had several interactions with her where he was NOT using his usual innuendo/flirty/banner was making it easier for her to interact with him without having to be either sarcastic or to scamper away (like after he told her perhaps he would like to know who she is and after they kissed). BUT . . . she isn’t yet ready to completely let go of those walls enough to let him know that she actually has feelings for him (I think she would have in Echo Cave since she started to reach for him – the cave forces you to tell your deepest secret and while her darkest secret was wishing that Neal was dead she said she JUST realized why she was hoping it was trick that he might be alive. I think the cave could have made it easier for her to tell Killian she cared about him too as PART of her secret but her parents blew it for her).
Anyway, since she still has part of her walls up she isn’t ready to acknowledge that the kiss meant something because that would acknowledge that she actually cares for him. Instead, she does something that is really even better because it was actually what Hook REALLY needed to know. She tells him what REALLY mattered was that he told them about Neal. She UNDERSTOOD why that was a BIG DEAL for him. And Killian’s entire goal was to get Emma to see him as a man of honor. So what she actually told him was “What meant something is that you are a man of honor.”
The other important thing is that she literally doesn’t even acknowledge his question about the kiss. Because the next time he makes a statement to Emma about something romantic between them that in the entire history of their relationship we have have only seen her either respond to him with abandonment (Tallahassee), sarcasm, running away, or completely ignoring it is in “Going Home” when he tells her that there isn’t a day that will go by that he won’t think of her and she FINALLY allows her walls down and acknowledges that she cares about him with just one word “good” and the way we have known that they were destined to be together from their very first episode together – they way they look at each other.”
So now I’m behind again, ugh!!
My favorite 3×4 scene is the cave scene as well for both reasons that were previously stated. First, Emma realizes how well Hook knew Bae and can tell that he clearly cared very much about him and that being back in his cave is also very painful for him as well – it takes her by surprise that he is so truly saddened by his memories. Second, it suddenly dawns on Emma that Hook must have known Neal better than she did. I think this is really important because I think this is part of what leads to her rant outside of the cave. We are never really given any concrete idea of the amount of time that Emma and Neal spent together before she went to jail. The SF folks seem to think it was at least a decent period of time but after re-watching this scene I actually think it was an incredibly short period of time. I mean, how long could two people reasonable live in that bug? Hook makes a comment about how he and Bae spent a very brief time together on the JR but spent a lot of time together on NL. In the cave scene Emma realizes that she and Neal have a child together which makes them “family” but she actually knows NOTHING about him. He never told her anything about himself and she wasn’t with him long enough to even know that he liked to draw – and we see him drawing or see his drawings quite a bit in flashbacks so it isn’t just soething he did every now and then. I think Emma realizes in the scene that she has spent 11 years with walls up over a guy she only briefly knew and didn’t know at all. And she realizes that this guy she thought didn’t care about anyone but himself knows more about the guy she has told herself she has “loved” than she does, and that he clearly cares about him as well. This is a lot for Emma to take and she loses it!!
Everyone, we’re forgetting again lol, what is your favourite CS moment in 3×04???
Oh, good. I love when we do this. I requires me to rewatch the episode. And when my hubby asks me why I am watching it AGAIN, I have a very good answer . . . research!!
I will now go and do my very important research project and report back with my findings . . .
And I think the fact that we have 4 or 5 married/mothers in this thread shipping this ship… all responsible people (I’m sure!), the fact that they ship Emma with Killian instead of Neal is very telling
Yup… my sons are little, but I would be so disappointed if they acted like Neal did to a woman that they loved and would feel like I failed in raising them. No daughters so I dont have to worry about that whole Bad Boy appeal that mommy obviously has. wink wink.
OK. So when I was young and dating, I liked them bad boys for real… I’m sure the rest of you have some stories at well. lol. And as we know from experience – some are really not likely to be rehabilitated… baggage of one sort of another is usually to blame and hard to overcome. So if I had a daughter I would comfort her over Neal and tell her to move on and all that other mom stuff. If I was at the beanstalk with Hook I honestly would be trying to steer her away without driving her towards him. But we get the benefit as viewers of seeing into Hook’s past, present and heart. Seeing that, responsible mom that I am would be all for my fictional daughter and Hook to get married and Cinderella coach it all the way back to Storybrooke.
Adding on to this as one of the married moms – one of the SF arguments that makes me cringe is that Neal really “knows” and “understands” Emma but Hook doesn’t. Umm, no – extremely flawed thinking. Emma and Neal suddenly being thrown together again does not mean that they have this deep and profound understanding of one another. Neal has only “known” her as a 17 year old run away orphan. Meeting her again when she is 28 after an 11 year absence means that he STILL only knows her as a 17 year old run away orphan. Look how much Emma has changed in just the amount of “time” that has passed during the show – now think about how much she (or anyone for that matter) has changed over 11 years. Neal knows NOTHING about her. Do they have things in common? Sure. But I have things in common with complete strangers too – doesn’t make it a valid argument for me to enter into a long term relationship with them.
Then we have Hook, who met Emma at her current age. And who, from the very beginning, has been able to read her like an open book. From the very beginning they established they work well together as a team – in the present day. From the very beginning he recognized that Emma had trust issues – and has challenged her to deal with them. He knows when she needs to be left alone to be a leader (on the beach in NL), when she needs advice (in the jungle in NL), when she is doubting herself and needs encouragement (I’ve yet to see you fail), when she needs him to be a gentleman (as you wish), that he needs to respect her family (daddy Charming Bromance), when she needs to be teased/playful (perhaps you’re the one who couldn’t handle it), when she needs to know that he is sincere (when I when your heart . . .), and that she is his TL (not a day will go by that I won’t think of you).
Hook has proven over and over again how well he knows and understands her in the present day. All Neal has done in the present day is apologize for what he did in the past, acknowledge that they produced a great kid, say he would never stop fighting for her, and ask her out once immediately followed by saying that if she didn’t show up he would stop bothering her. Compare that to Hook saying he is in it for the long haul, will think about Emma every day even though she will never remember him, and then find a way to figure out where she is after a year and tries to make her remember him with TLK.
Who understands Emma???????
I can’t stand that SF argument because I don’t see how it is any different than someone saying that the boyfriend I had in high school really “knows” and “understands” me and knows what it is that I need out of life because we dated for three years when I was a teenager even though I haven’t seen him since. If he walked back into my life today, how would it be ANY different than saying that Neal “knows” and “understands” Emma? It makes ZERO sense.
Yet when I met my husband, we became very close friends right away because he did a lot of the things Hook did with Emma: knew when I needed someone to make me laugh, to chill me out, to give me some confidence, etc. He figured that stuff out really fast. That is understanding someone.
Since we’ve been talking about the Emma/Killian jail scene, here’s what has always bothered me when people want to crucify Hook over it:
First – Emma has ALWAYS believed in her ability to tell when people are lying and she very clearly informs Hook of this when she first meets him.
Second – When she abandons Hook in the giant’s castle she says she is doing it because she can’t take the chance that she is wrong about him and Hook asks her to look at him and asks her if he has ever lied to her. She knows that he is telling the truth so she KNOWS that the ONLY reason she is abandoning Hook is because she has trust issues – just as Hook pointed out when he told her that she needed to try something new – trust. It had NOTHING to do with her worrying about bring wrong about Hook – it was strictly because the girl was not capable of trusting – even when her superpower told her she had no reason NOT to trust him. And the reason she was not capable of trusting a good looking man who was flirting with her and talking about love comes down to one thing: Neal – the whole reason we see her backstory with him in this epistory.
Third – the was an actual POINT to the jail scene and it was NOT to show that Hook was a horrible guy that leaves women for dead (as if). The point was to show a similar situation to the one Emma had left Hook in and to allow Hook to make the point that he had been on Emma’s side but that even though she had every reason to trust her (because of her super power) she chose not to abd chose to abandon HIM. So now the tables are turned. And she speaks from her broken “Neal” place to try to make the point that he is like what she assumes ALL men are like (just like many women who have been deeply hurt by a man) and says that he would have done the same thing. The WHOLE point of this scene was for Hook to prove to Emma that she blew it by not trying something new – trust. And so he tells her “Actually, no.” And since Emma has her super power she knows he is being sincere and she therefore knows that SHE is the reason she ended up in the jail cell. She realizes that Hook is telling the truth. She could have trusted him, he wouldn’t have abandoned her, he would have stayed on their side. Since SHE abandoned HIM, he had no choice but to end up with Cora again which resulted in Emma ending up in jail – not what Hook planned for or hoped for. For the first time she sees how trying to maintain her wall by refusing to trust someone has backfired – she realizes she should have gone with her first instinct, to trust Hook.
So that scene was meant to show Emma realizing that SHE made a mistake. And that the lack of trust she has been carrying around has now priven to be dangerous. She realizes she SHOULD had listened to Hook and tried something new – trust.
Interesting then that when they are on NL Emma never questions any of Hooks ideas and always looks to him for advice and approval. Looks like she learned her lesson. Her super power tells her to trust Hook and unlike some people (cough *Neal* cough) Hook respects her super power and knows he needs to behave in a way that deserves that trust.
Just like with Emma there are many kinds of true love – Emma has true love with Henry but I don’t doubt that we will eventually have her romantic true love moment as well (kiss or not).
I am talking more about Pan’s curse than Gold’s. I think the DO curse was broken when Gold used the dagger on Pan/Malcome but he kissed his father before they were carried away in the smoke. Although Malcome saw being Pan as his dream I think it was really a curse but he just didn’t recognize it. So staying with the theory that without a body there is no death, I still think the kiss could have been significant.
We have seen TLK not work because people have lost their memories even they really DO love the other person. It is possible it could work the other way. Just like with Cora. She didn’t have a heart so she didn’t know she loved Regina. What if someone thinks they don’t love someone but they really do? Like Malcome? He is clearly evil and became seriously messed up on NL. What if he really loved Rumple but just didn’t know or understand (like when he looked like he first regretted becoming Pan). Maybe TLK can work then. It wouldn’t change that Belle is Rumple’s romantic TL. Just a theory.
The thing I wonder about though is the fact that Rumple kissed his father right before they “died.” I think that was put there to make you wonder, but it DOES make me wonder. The fact that Belle has made Rumple a better man by continuing to remind him that regardless of all the horrible things he has done – there is still good in him, makes me think that he would have honored Belle by taking that part of her spirit with him and giving the same benefit of the doubt to his own father – hence the kiss. And I actually think they may have set it up to make hate Malcom so much because he was such a horrendous father that we would have difficulty believing that the kiss could be a TLK. But I think that when Malcome turned into Pan there was a brief moment of regret when the shadow was taking Rume away – I think when he turned back into Malcome, right before he died there could have been a similar brief moment of regret when he realized what he had wasted – if the kissed was timed right, it could have been TLK. It would be very similar to what happened when Cora had her heart shoved back into her body. She was a horrible mother but when she got her heart back she realized she loved her daughter and that having a life with Rumple and Regina would have been enough to make her happy – right before she died, she was “redeemed” in a way. It would be interesting to have Malcom end up paying a price for his sins by having to remain as Pan (since everyone really liked Robbie Kay) but then turn into the more traditional Peter Pan – not nasty and evil. He wears green, he fits in with the Season 4 Oz theme!
