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OH!! The other thing I loved was DaddyCharming immediately tossing a sword to Killian after Rumple stealing his.
You know what’s soooo great about that???? Dad’s are super protective of their daughters and when they first get into the dating years they try to do the whole intimidate the guys who are vying for her affection and make it clear that they aren’t good enough for her thing. But then when their daughter’s get older and they pick THE guy, whether they like the guy or not they try to bond with the guy because he is important to his daughter and he realizes that at some point he won’t be around to protect his daughter anymore and THIS man will be the one who be the one who will take care of her so he starts to love the guy as a family member.
In that moment I felt like DaddyCharming instinctively wanted Killian to be able to protect himself because he is Emma’s choice and the man who will be there for here in the future so to David it was instinctively more important to him that Killian be able to protect himself (Emma’s future) than it was to protect himself (Emma’s past). What I found so interesting is that the guy has a sharp metal hook attached to his arm – he kind of always travels with his own weapon so David was really sacrificing his own weapon to give Killian double protection.
So during their short time on NL it seems like they have progressed through all the protective daddy dating stages with David when it comes to Killian. And if you think about it there really wasn’t ANY reason AT ALL to have Emma bring up the fact that David had told her about Liam when she asked Killian about the cure for DreamShade except to establish that she and David had had a private conversation about Killian’s painful past. So far there has still not been any mention of any past David/Neal bonding or conversations of the details of Emma’s past with Neal with her parents but they wanted to make it clear that Emma and her dad have talked about Killian in NL when Emma says that all she has time to do is focus on her son!! And Killian and David have bonded to the point that David instinctively wants to make sure he is protected when they go into potentially dangerous situations.
This makes sense to me. If David thinks that he isn’t going to ever leave NL and is going to have to be separated from his daughter again, I would think that he would want to spend as much time with her as he can and be as much of a “dad” to her in the little time they have together. So giving her advice about the kind of man he believes to Killian to be and letting her know how much he knows Killian cares about her would make sense. Plus, if you look at what Charming’s situation with love was – he is the perfect person to give Emma advise. He was in a situation where he felt like the honorable thing to do was to marry whatever Katherine’s name was in the EF because if he didn’t they were going kill his mother and destroy their farm. But even though that may have seemed like the “right” decision on the outside because it was saving his mother, he didn’t love Katherine – he loved Snow. And to Emma if she thinks the right decision is to be with Neal because of Henry – that might “look” like the right decision but if she doesn’t love him the way she loves Killian than she is choosing the wrong person. He could tell her about how he and Snow met which is so similar to how CS met – Charming can really relate to Emma and Killian’s relationship in a way that I don’t think Snow can yet because she hasn’t had as much time to process having to stay on the island.
[adrotate group="5"]I agree, this episode was basically one big parallel between Malcolm/Rumple and Rumple/Neal. CSers have been saying for ages that Neal’s arc is all about his father this season (and not Emma) and between this episode and “Nasty Habits” that has been pretty much proven.
I think that Neal, who has seen first hand how his father and magic go together, is understandably wary of Rumple being the most powerful of them all there – magic turned Rumple into a man who only did things unless it benefitted him, he made deals – not favours, and the deals always came with a price. I think that Neal has always resented how Rumple wields his magic in an attempt to gain power and control.
Multiple times in 3×08, we see Neal trying to stop Rumple from falling back into these habits, by not allowing him to use magic, making him give Neal Pandora’s box so that Neal could stop him if he attempted to hurt Henry, and he prevented Rumple from making his usual deals.
It was when Neal realised that Rumple wasn’t lying about coming to save Henry that he gave Rumple his eleventy billionth chance (lol).
As for Regina, she has been burned in deals MANY TIMES with Rumple, so I totally get why she would still not trust him!!!
So all of that wasn’t fishy to me.
So Neal is fine with Emma using magic since it’s not all that powerful yet but he firmly warns dad not to use his super powerful magic.
I don’t think Neal is fine with Emma using magic at all… but that’s just what I think. He was very unpleasantly surprised when Emma used it in Dark Hollow and again last night – he moved directly behind Regina and was watching them both with a wary expression.
Well, Rumple certainly didn’t think of a fake Pandora’s box – and who had been carrying around the box and gave it to Rumple before he went into the cave?? Neal!!!
That IS suspicious actually.
But like you, i’m finding it hard to believe that he would do anything to compromise his sons safety, especially after just finding out from Wendy that Pan intends to kill Henry to attain immortality. I didn’t mind Neal at all this episode, and the one time I did find him annoying was the only time in the whole episode that he addressed Emma directly – when he accused her of not telling him that Rumple and Regina were together *rolls eyes*
I try not to dislike Neal, but his use of Roland to get to NL (especially now that we know that Shadow is freaking smart and scary) coupled with his treatment of Emma makes that hard at times. The writers seem to be directly paralleling Rumple and Neal, but at the same time they are giving Neal is own arc in that he will be the one to break the cycle.
I found an interesting post on tumblr actually, which is SCARILY accurate.
the writers are very obviously paralleling Neal and Rumpel in both the past and to an extent their present
Rumpel had an unsuccessful first love (Milah), a toxic second (Cora), and finally found happiness with the third (Belle)
Neal had an unsuccessful first love (Emma), a toxic
psychoticsecond (Tamara), and if pattern follows he will find happiness with a third (????)I guess what I mean about Neal being okay with Emma using magic is that he hasn’t forbidden her from using it or totally freaked out about it the way he has with Rumple. So like with the Lost Boys, it obviously wasn’t that he didn’t want magic USED on the Lost Boys because he didn’t even flinch when Regina said she would do it, he just didn’t want Rumple to use it. So what I don’t get is if he doesn’t have a problem with the magic being used in the process of saving his son – why not allow Rumpke to use it since his magic is SO powerful. If you really want to save your son wouldn’t you want to do it as quickly as possible with the best chance possible – which to me would be to use the strongest magic possible.
I totally forgot that Neal was annoyed that Emma didn’t tell him about Regina being there with Rumple. That makes me even more suspicious. Because aside from Rumple, Regina is the one who has the most powerful magic. And Neal was none too happy that Regina grabbed the box out of his hands when he was handing it to Rumple – maybe wondering if she would be able to tell that it was a fake??
I don’t know. I do still have a huge issue with thinking Neal would hurt Henry. But PP made the comment before that he LET Neal leave the island. And Neal very confidently told them that he could get them off the island. What if Neal made a deal with PP that he would trade Rumple in exchange for getting off the island, maybe not knowing that Henry would die in the process. Afterall when they were talking to Wendy Rumple made the comment to her that no matter what PP had promised her, he will go back on his word. And Neal doesn’t know that Rumple has first hand knowledge of the kind of person that Rumple is. So maybe Neal believed that PP would trade Henry for Rumple (and potentially Hook in Dark Hollow) so that he could have a fresh start with Emma and Henry without the reputation of his father following them everywhere they go (just like was discussed in the Young Rumple back story and when Rumple told PP he was getting a fresh start just without him).
That is interesting about the similarities with Rumple and Neal’s relationships. Their second relationships both tried to killed them as well.
You know what I love about both of the above gifs??
They are totally realistic!!
So Emma kind of read both Killian and Neal the riot act for fighting over a “lighter” when they should all be focused on #SavingHenry. Lots of people are saying that Killian was pouting or acted totally I appropriately to her telling them both that she was choosing Henry but I never saw that at all, I saw that he was kind of kicking himself for acting so immaturely when that isn’t at all his personality.
So then Killian and Emma had their little discussion where he basically told her that he knows she’s gonna choose him but understands that she needs to focus on Henry right now so everything else between the two if them is going to wait until they get back to SB.
But he is still a GUY!! And I still believe that part of Killian’s conversation with Emma about her having to make a choice is about the fact that she has not clearly said to one of them “I choose you” and “I don’t choose you” to the other. And until she does that both guys have hope which means both guys are being led on. Now I know there are people who totally disagree with me, but the fact that there is a huge group of SF shippers who believe that Emma told Neal she was choosing him and that she told Killian she is not choosing him tells you just how unclear she has been. So until she tells one guy “No way” they are both being led on – I don’t think she is doing it purposely, I think she does it because she doesn’t know how to make hard decisions even when they really aren’t that hard to make (which is why Killian is so good for her – he calls her out on that).
So poor Killian is in love with this woman who grabbed him and kissed him like no one else and who has flat out told him she has noticed the things that he has been doing that are proving the kind of man he really is. And he wants her more than anything but because he loves and respects her and also recognizes WHY it is that they are there in the first place he is basically giving his thoughts a daily cold shower so that he can keep good on allowing Emma to focus on Henry.
So then here comes Emma with every guys favorite words “We need to talk.”
Poor guy. When you tell the woman you love that she needs to make a choice between you and the father of your child, she tells both of you to give her space, and then she gets you alone and those are the first words she says to you, I’m guessing you don’t “Think Lovely Thoughts.” So we get a sarcastic Hook response and suddenly he is in self-protection mode with Emma again – which I think is completely realistic.
And then he finds out that she actually wants to talk about David (relief – it’s not the “we can still be friends” speech) but he also discovers that Daddy Charming and Emma have been talking about him. Hmmm? Wasn’t quite prepared for that information and it was PAINFUL information that she just dropped on him with no forewarning. So, sorry Killian I can’t get personal with you while we’re on the island because I need to focus on saving my son but while I’ve got you here can you just give me some additional details on one of the most painful events in your entire life because I’m not sure my dad got all the details correct. Oh, my bad – I know it must be hard to talk about, says the princess of unscalable walls.
I’m sorry but, what the heck??? Every time Killian has tried to lovingly let Emma know that he understands what she is going through hinting at the fact that he knows what it feels like to lose people he loves she has told him that she doesn’t have the time if day for him. And he has done this to be supportive of her. But now when she wants to get something out of it she suddenly wants to hear his story – but only acknowledges as a second thought that it must be painful for him to talk about. I don’t blame the guy for not wanting to talk to her about it. He doesn’t know of any way to get David off the island, he’s trying to keep emotional distance from her because that’s what she wants, and talking about Liam is too painful and personal a topic to discuss with her if he can’t be vulnerable with her. I felt bad for Killian in that scene. I know he loves her, respects her, and supports her but he has been doing everything for her since he came back to SB with the bean and I thought he was entitled to a “what about me?” moment. It had nothing to do with Henry – it was more like, “I’m following the rules you wanted, but you don’t have to? I don’t know HOW I’m supposed to act.”
Then when Daddy Charming kissed Emma and we see Killian’s face I thought it was the perfect follow up to that scene. Killian loves Emma and he wants so badly to be with her but he is still going to honor her wishes even it means he has to make himself stay away from her a bit emotionally, volunteer to stay behind when it is more appropriate for Henry’s parents to go on the rescue mission, and NOT give her the heartfelt goodbye and kiss that he wishes he could. Killian has always been direct and honest with her so he KNOWS that she knows how he feels about her, that he is fighting for her, and that he intends to win. Telling them that he would see them back on the Jolly Roger when they have Henry was his way of giving Emma a non-emotional goodbye but telling her again that he believes in her.
I got NOTHING in terms of SF during the entire episode. I mean NOTHING. There wasn’t even any confusion or emotion from Emma during the whole Wendy/Neal reunion, it was like she couldn’t have cared less. And even when Neal stood up to Rumple still trying to make deals with Emma to get the cure for the DreamShade cure for DaddyCharming – I felt like the scene was meant to be a Neal/Rumple moment not a SF moment. And even with Emma’s reaction, I felt like we were supposed to be seeing Emma’s reaction to the Neal/Rumple moment not Emma reacting emotionally to Neal standing up for her to get the cure for her father. It was not supposed to be like when Hook cured David. There were PLENTY of opportunities in this episode for SF moments but there just weren’t any. I even laughed out loud when poor Emma ran into the protection spell wall, flipped upside down, landed with a giant thud on the ground and Neal says “Are you okay?” like she has just taken a small stumble. Then he says “What the H*ll is that?” with tons of concern. He was more concerned about the invisible wall than the fact that the love of his life just took a giant face plant in front of him????
I am watching the ep again. Something feels “off” to me about Neal.
Neal tries to convince everyone that Rumple wants to kill Henry.
When that doesn’t work he convinces Rumple to give him Pandora’s box and tells him he can’t use any magic. Yet Emma has used magic and although he hasn’t been thrilled he seems to accept it. When Rumple makes the comment about being the most powerful one there – Neal says that is why they should be concerned. So Neal is fine with Emma using magic since it’s not all that powerful yet but he firmly warns dad not to use his super powerful magic.We see Rumple hesitate in giving Neal Pandora’s box and then we have the scene where young Rumple shows his father the bean and isn’t sure about letting his father have the bean because he is afraid he won’t use it for anything good. When they use parallels on the show they are NOT accidental.
We then see Rumple’s father toss the bean on the ground, just like Bae tosses the bean on the ground when Rumple let go of his hand – we now understand the significance of this scene.
When they are outside the Lost Boy’s Camp Rumple asks if he can at least use magic on the Lost Boys – Neal says no so Regina does it. Please help me here. Neal’s ultimate goal is to get his son back but he isn’t willing to use his father’s power to it’s advantage to HELP in the process??? Something isn’t right. It seems like Neal is attempting to stop the use of magic in the progression toward to Henry.
Go back to the last episode. Neal takes Emma and Hook to Dark Hallow and “attempts” to light the candle. He would probably know that Hook doesn’t know how to use a lighter and he gives him about a nanosecond to try before the lighter flies through the air. Then suddenly when it seems like there is no hope for the candle to be lit, the shadows – and how convenient, 3 of them – appear. And Neal tells Emma to save herself, meaning run and leave. How was she supposed to do that? Wouldn’t the 3rd shadow have gotten her just as easily as Neal and Hook? Yes, unless the plan was never for the 3rd shadow to actually attack Emma. To Neal’s surprise Regina has been teaching Emma magic and she has been able to light the candle on her own.
When Snow thanks Rumple for being able to cure David of the DreamShade poisoning when they get back to SB, Rumple says “Well appearantly that’s all the thanks I need these days” implying that Neal wouldn’t allow him to make a deal for the cure. Right after he says this the camera shows Neal deep in thought holding on tight to Pandora’s box. I don’t think that is an accidental scene.
Then when they get to the cave suddenly Neal decides that Rumple isn’t a threat anymore because he doesn’t have a shadow and can get through the protection charm?? So now he decides to just hand over Pandora’s Box with no trust issues at ALL and Regina, who had trusted him and helped him all along UNTIL Neal made her question him, is still concerned?? Sorry but that makes no sense to me at all.
When Emma and Regina are trying to Eclipse the moon, I don’t think Neal looks to happy about it when he moves behind them. In fact I think he looks like “This wasn’t part of the plan.”
When Rumple and PP are talking, listen to what Rumple says when PP is asking him to stay with and telling him they could make a new start. If you changed out the characters and had Rumple say PP’s lines and had Neal say Rumple’s lines, it would still make perfect sense.
The only time during the entire Rumple/PP speech that PP looks bothered is when Rumple tells PP that he is nothing like PP because he searched for his son the entire time after he lost him. In fact, PP looks surprised by this because there is no way he could have known this information while Bae was on the island.
Pandora’s Box – when Rumple can’t get the box to work he says that PP switched the boxes BUT PP tells Rumple “In NL all you have to do is think of something to have it – even something fake.” Well, Rumple certainly didn’t think of a fake Pandora’s box – and who had been carrying around the box and gave it to Rumple before he went into the cave?? Neal!!! And notice right before Rumple tries to make the box work he said “Oh, I’m gonna make a fresh start all right, just not with you.” Again, something that if Neal said it to Rumple would also make perfect sense.
And how would PP have known that Pandora’s Box made it back to Neverland in the first place? John and Michael are now working with Belle so I doubt they would have told him they found it and it is on the way back. It seems like he would need someone ON the island to warn him.
I don’t necessarily think I’m willing to go so far as to say that Neal isn’t trying to #SaveHenry (yet). But this is one seriously messed up family although it appears that the level of fatherly abandonment does seem to decrease somewhat through the generations. But it seems to me that Neal is so unable to forgive his father that his judgement is seriously clouded to the point that his decision making is affecting Henry’s rescue.
I have no problem with Neal wanting Rumple to give up being the DO (not sure if he can voluntarily do that though) or with him wanting him to give up magic. But it seems like now would NOT be the time to insist on it if you really cared about saving your son. It just seems to be a either a personal jab because Neal can just NOT forgive Rumple and he is TRYING to turn everyone against Rumple and is maybe using Pan to help him get Rumple out of his life or my more sadly sinister thought it that maybe Neal is following in PP footsteps and has decided that, like Rumple’s father, he was never meant to be a dad and maybe he wants to go back to having no responsibilities again. Which seems odd since he told Rumple he didn’t want to go back to being 14 again. But then again, I still find it strange that they brought Wendy back so young and have Neal so much older.
how will they know he’s in the Box? Will they just go “Rumple’s disappeared and that box is just sitting there…. oh. Cr*p. He must be in there!”
OMG!! I thought the exact same thing as soon as they all ran into the room where Pan and Henry were. At some point one of them will say “Hey, where’s Rumple? Well, he must be in that box!!”
At least we know what or should I say who is in the box this time..
My son joked that it is the light-weight, portable, pocket edition of Rumple. Parties? Road trips? Now you can take him with you wherever you go!!
Favorite moments:
Rumple backstory
Robbie and Robert scene in the cave – they were AMAZING together
Rumple’s comment about not walking in with nothing but his good looks
That all of Henry’s parents went in to try to save him (nice break from the “triangle”) – was nice to see them all working together
Love seeing the generational patterns in the Stiltskin family even though none of them want to repeat themLeast favorite:
I was hoping for more from the Wendy/Bae reunion – it was sweet, and I know they only have so much time per episode but I always feel like all of Neal’s important “stuff” happens when there is a life threatening situation going on so that there is never time to deal with his issue and it just gets glanced over. I feel like this could have been a huge moment with more detail about how Wendy ended up there, Emma learning more about Bae’s life, etc but instead it was “Wendy?? Bae?? Hug. Seen my son?? No. Lying?? Yes. Henry will die.”
I’m sorry but I laughed out loud when Emma ran into the protection spell wall, flipped upside down, landed on the ground with a thud and Neal says “Are you okay?” like she just took a small stumble.
I had trouble understanding some of what was said in this episode. Sometimes it takes me awhile to adjust to an actor’s accent – but then I typically want to vacation in that country.
how will they know he’s in the Box? Will they just go “Rumple’s disappeared and that box is just sitting there…. oh. Cr*p. He must be in there!”
OMG!! I thought the exact same thing as soon as they all ran into the room where Pan and Henry were. At some point one of them will say “Hey, where’s Rumple? Well, he must be in that box!!”
Rumple hates fairies – I think the spinsters are fairies. Something seemed a bit “off” about them to me. I think we will find that the fairies wanted Rumple to lead his dad to Neverland and I think BF is behind it all.
I agree with the theory that the BF and the shadow are somehow connected.
Ahhh!! Seriously, the gifs of Emma/Hook sniffing and twirling the key/coin . . . I can’t even . . .!!!!
That is so totally what I have been saying all along about how I wouldn’t want my daughter to get back together with the guy she was a thief with – when Emma snifs and twirls it’s because she is being encouraged to steal by Neal (it even rhymes). But when Hook snifs and twirls Emma is encouraging him NOT to steal and even though he WANTS to figure out how much he can take back with him – he decides not to bother since Emma doesn’t want him to. SF bring out the worst in each other, CS bring out the best in each other.
And how ANYONE can watch those gifs and NOT figure out that CS was always meant to be endgame is beyond me!!
@MysteryKat Love your summary!
Love especially what you said about the difference between where Emma stands with Neal and Hook right now. I had actually been thinking that was why Hook told Emma that she IS going to have to choose and that it was completely appropriate and necessary for him to tell her that.
I think I feel a bit differently than most people about the secret Emma revealed to Neal. While I understand what she was saying to him given what we know because we have seen her history with Hook, the kiss, heard Hook’s secret and seen her reaction to it – Neal did know ANY of that information. So from Neal’s perspective I don’t think he feels that Emma was telling him that he she doesn’t want a relationship with him. I think he feels that she just opened up about HOW badly he hurt her and that trying to make it work with him again is such a painful thought that she can’t even deal with it so she was hoping he was dead so she WOULDN’T have to deal with it. So I feel like, to Neal, he feels like he was actually given a glimmer of hope – in an oddly worded way. So when Killian told Emma that she was going to have to choose I think that we are still seeing the more emotionally mature of the two men – Killian wants Emma and is confident that she will choose him but he also knows that really there is no such thing as a love triangle. He knows that Emma really already knows who she loves and who she wants to be with and not being direct with one of them isn’t doing ANY of them any favors because until she chooses there will be childish behavior like with the lighter while they fight over her – which he obviously feels ridiculous about. Killian doesn’t ever allow Emma to get away with being evasive – he calls her out on everything, which is exactly what she needs to stop throwing her walls up when things get uncomfortable for her. He recognizes that it really isn’t fair for her string BOTH guys along. She WILL have to choose regardless of how uncomfortable that decision is for her. And as @MysteryKat points out I think Killian recognizes that Emma probably feels she somehow owes it to Neal to give him a “second chance” because of their past history and because he is Henry’s father. But that isn’t a valid reason to choose someone if you really love someone else. Killian obviously cared a great deal about Bae so he doesn’t want him to get hurt, yet again. And, since I believe that he knows Emma has already chosen him (even if she doesn’t realize it completely herself yet), he doesn’t want Neal to be hurt being strung along. That would be history repeating itself – Milah stayed with Rumple when she later told him that never loved him. So when Hook came along she easily feel in love with him and wanted to leave with him. If she never loved Rumple she never should have been with him in the first place. As painful as it would be for Neal now, the sooner Emma makes it clear that she doesn’t want a relationship with him again the easier it will be for him – she can make it clear that she was never choosing Killian over him, it was that she was never going to be able to be with Neal again period. I think the fact that Emma and Neal have reason to work together to get their son back is another reason that she needs to be careful with how she behaves with him – they have a shared goal because they are both Henry’s parents, that shared goal doesn’t change regardless of whether Emma wants to choose Neal or not but I think that Neal will read her working with him as choosing him unless she spells it out for him.
But as @MysteryKat points out, Emma has no reason to work with Killian as closely as she does. She has no reason to feel she owes him anything, even though he is helping to save Henry they don’t have a shared goal in the same way that she does with Neal yet she has ALWAYS looked to Killian for suggestions and approval before deciding what to do. If she really wanted to focus on only saving Henry and not deal with either guy she would shut both of them out and work strictly with Regina and Rumple but she doesn’t do that. She still works with both of them and when danger appears her automatic reflex is to be concerned for Killian and to make immediate decisions based upon keeping him safe.
The difference between Emma with Killian and Emma with Neal for some reason reminds me of a person who goes on an anti-depressant. The person was able to function and live their life before they went on the medication and they accomplished the things they needed to accomplish each day – that’s Emma with Neal. But then when the person goes in the anti-depressant they will often say that they didn’t realize how BAD they felt before they started taking the medication. Suddenly things seems much brighter, they are happy even though they didn’t realize they were sad all the time, they smile and their family members comments on what a different person they are now, they have more confidence in themselves, and they feel like they have more to look forward to. It seems like with Neal – everything is very down and dark, and talking about overcoming past issues is this never ending discussion of words but no action (on both their parts). But with Killian, Emma smiles and when there is discussion of past hurts their is not only words but their are also actions that help overcome the past baggage – also on both their parts. There is talk of the present and the future and when the past is discussed it is about how they are overcoming the past, whereas with Neal there is only discussion of the present and of what they had in the past and of how much they were hurt in the past. There is never any discussion of the future. Neal even says I will never stop fighting for you and tells her that if nothing else ever comes of their relationship – at least they made a great kid, nothing that shows any positive movement to the future. Whereas Killian tells Emma that she will choose him, he will win her heart, and when she does rescue Henry and they gets back to SB that is when the fun will begin – all talk of the future – THEIR future.
