Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
I know some of us have talked before about our difficulty bonding with Neal. This greatly bothers me because of how central Bae is to the entire show given that the curse was basically created for him and given his relationship with so many of the characters. And I know we have discussed the potential that the reason we haven’t been able to bond with him is because perhaps he has been written as a way to further advance the plot lines of other characters as opposed to really having any kind of major plot line of his own as Neal.
But I figured that obviously the folks who ship SF don’t have difficulty bonding with him and don’t view him as a “flat” character the way, unfortunately, I do (but really wish I didn’t). So I sailed over to their ship for a visit and asked them for some insight into why it might be that I am having difficulty bonding with him and wanted to know if they feel like he gets short changed by the writers or if they feel like he has just as much depth of characters as the other and I am just not feeling it for some reason. They had some interesting things to say and Phee shared a link to an essay about why people don’t like Neal (I would post the link here but I honestly have no idea how). I don’t know how old the essay is so you all may have already seen it, but I thought it was really helpful in pointing out some things that I never really paid much attention to before. It will be interesting to see if I feel like their is more depth to his character after reading it. It doesn’t change the fact that I want to see Emma with Hook – I just happen to think that she and Hook are a good match.
I just wanted to mention this in case there were any other CS shippers out there who love Bae dearly and wish they could love Neal as well in spite of the fact that they want Emma to end up with Hook. Because at the end of the day, I love the show and the characters first and foremost.
[adrotate group="5"]I never cared for Jack Sparrow either. I never could get into all those Pirates of the Caribbean movies. But my son also says that Hook reminds him of Jack Sparrow. Everyone sees something different, I’m sure that’s why the show is so popular with such a wide variety of people. My 70 year old mother loves it too (although she thinks the shipping thing is bizarre!).
@Phee Thanks for the link to the Nealfire essay. I think that helps. I find it funny that I think it is a roadblock to my bonding with Neal that it seems like when we should be having a big Bea moment there is always some kind of life threatening situation going on but the essay points out that Neal has his most Bae like moments when there is immement danger. When those moments were pointed out to me they were easy to see. I think the problem is that I get so wrapped up in the major danger that I see what Neal is doing but it doesn’t even register that it is a very Baelfire action.
I still don’t like that they haven’t had any backstory episodes besides Tallhassee to tell us what happened to him as Neal – I feel like that is a giant piece of not only his story but of the entire show that is missing, but maybe we will get that this season since they are playing up the whole “triangle” thing. Thanks for all the insights SF shippers!!
RumplesGirl wrote: and my whole fandom thesis is that we like who we like because it’s a move from sympathy to empathy. Once you’ve aligned yourself with a character as more than just “oh I feel sorry for them” but rather “I understand them because in a way I am them” then their struggles becomes your struggles and if they can’t get a happy ending then there is no hope for you.
This! I was gonna mention the empathy thing, but I see RG beat me to it. Basically, I think Neal is a character who demands sympathy and empathy, because of all the crap he’s had happen to him, the sacrifices he’s made, and the lonliness he’s felt since he was 14, which was actually a couple hundred years ago, and in that time he’s had two blips of a familial love with someone, the Darlings and Emma, and both times fate didn’t allow him to keep his happiness and he had to actually step up and leave the people he loved, for their own sake. I think if a viewer allows themselves to truly sympathise and empathise, and see things from Neal’s point of view, then they will inevitably want the poor guy to finally get his happy ending, and this season so far, he’s been, “Emma, Emma, Emma, love, love, love, Emma is the love of my life.” Therefore, if you let yourself really get Neal…by rights, you’ll want him to end up with Emma. (At the risk of sounding blunt, it’s probably easier for CSers to feel positive towards Bae as a kid, because that version of the character wasn’t a threat.) Not everyone who dislikes Neal ships CS, (the person who runs the anti-CS tumblr isn’t a huge Neal fan, though they’ll defend him if CSers blatantly ignore canon facts about what he has and hasn’t done in an attempt to paint him as the devil), so it’s certainly possible for someone to just dislike Neal for non-ship reasons. But I think the case of people who DO ship CS and don’t like Neal, might have something with that whole resisting the sympathy/empathy thing. And if you’re resisting feeling that for him, then you’re just not going to want to peel back the layers and see the complexities in him, and appreciate that he IS still that same person, he has the same strengths, and the same wounds. Despite all he’s been through, the fact that he was living in a Manhattan apartment means that he pulled his life together, which is evidence of incredible strength. Imagine living for 200+ years, thinking fate has it in for you because the couple of times you almost had happiness, you had to give it up. What would even be the point of going on living if you’re not fated to ever have happiness stick, no matter how long you live for? So though he has his weaknesses, fears, hopelessness, which are all products of how many times life has crapped on him, he should be admired for also having the strength to have not just given up on life. Him changing his life to end up in Manhattan, even though we haven’t seen how it happened, it shows just as much strength as he had when he tossed that bean on the ground, way back when, if not moreso, considering how much more he’s endured since then. The fact that all that suffering hasn’t turned him into a horrible, aggressive person, is also testament to his strength. rumplegoldfan, you might wanna check out ScrewballNinja’s Nealfire essay: http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/56885787912/whats-a-baelfire-and-why-does-it-whats-the
Hi again!! Just to clarify, I don’t dislike Neal. The problem is that I love Bae and want (and expected to be) just as enthusiastic about the grown up, present day version if Bae – just like I love Rumple and I love Gold. I might not be thrilled with some things he has done in his past but all of the characters on the show have done some questionable things – and the basic premise of the show is to show that there is reason WHY everyone does the things they do, even villians like the EQ. So I can still love Regina in spite of what she had done in her past understanding what drove her to it. Not that I am saying Neal’s past is anything like Regina’s but I think you get my point.
There are a lot of CS shippers who don’t dislike Neal and really WANT to love him because of how much we love Bae and we struggle with why we don’t. It isn’t at all that we don’t WANT to like Neal – it’s the exact opposite, we WANT to love him and we don’t get why we don’t feel the love for him.
I’m talking about talking it all completely out of context of any ship because, for me, it’s great to talk about ships but I love the show first and foremost so at the end of the day I care most about the character and plot development. So my issue with wanting to bond with Neal as a character would be the same whether Hook was even on the show or not. My reasons for preferring Hook with Emma have more to do with my own personal preference for the guy I think she should be with based upon my own history and experience that really doesn’t have to do with my bonding problem with Neal. Unfortunately for me, the way the set up Emma and Neal’s past makes it difficult for me to see Neal as a good option, even if that means her other option is to stay single. So I am not Hook vs. Neal at all. I just happen to like Hook as a character. Just like I like Rumple.
Ohhh, good question about Regina as Queen because I have wondered if they were to go back to the EF would Regina still be the Queen and, if so, what kind of Queen would she be now?
She has had a lot of personal growth in SB and isn’t out for revenge against Snow anymore. So does she have a reason to be so filled with hate anymore? Could she be a good queen now? Would Snow allow her to be the Queen? Would she want to be the queen or would she turn it over to Snow?
Over at the CS ship we have mentioned the lack of backstory for Neal. I mean we keep learning about Bae but we really haven’t learned about the point that he became Neal yet so that is kind of a giant blank aside from Tallahassee so we don’t know why he seems so different. I think a lot of us wonder, are we going to get that information or not? Because the long I go without it the harder time I have bonding with Neal.
But this was in large part to Neal being the mystery man of S2. They couldn’t give the backstory of Neal because they were building the mystery of just “who the heck is this guy?” and then when it was revealed that he was Baelfire it became all about Tamara working against our guys.
Maybe it is that they are purposely trying to make him very different from all the other characters (as you pointed out with his dress, accent, etc) to make the point that he has spent so much time in the real world?? Maybe that’s why I feel like he doesn’t fit in with the rest of the characters?? Because he DOESN’T fit in with them and isn’t really supposed to fit in with them??
He is very tied to our world. Thus his constant use of “It’s NEAL!” and not Bae. His old life was way to painful. He is a creature of this world but (sorry, but you ARE in the SF thread) just like Emma he can never sever his ties to the other life fully. The exist in both realms. They alone are the original stories being told.
I can see that. I forgot about him always wanting to be called Neal.
I guess that’s why it bugs me so much that I can’t bond with him (and there are MANY CS shippers who feel exactly the same way). We know that he and Emma are basically the core reasons for the curse and the show so we are puzzled as to why we don’t really feel much for Neal when we love Emma (and we love Bae).
I’m hoping that once they have #SavedHenry they can focus more on healing Neal’s relationships, maybe if the show can actually put the focus of the show on him it will help me bond with him.
Ship on, SF friends!
I am Twitter – challenged. Is it ok that I just go out on the website and vote over and over again for hours??
@RumplesGirl Good point about the clothes!! Never thought about that at all!! But now that you mention it, it’s totally true!! And even when we did see him in a suit when we first saw him all grown up, if I recall his suit wasn’t exactly designer quality or fit like Gold’s suits.
And I also think you are right about his kind of rougher accent, etc. I think that is actually what makes it kind of a stretch for me in believing that Bae and Neal are the same person – he just seems so different from what I would have expected him to be like as the grown up version of Bae.
Over at the CS ship we have mentioned the lack of backstory for Neal. I mean we keep learning about Bae but we really haven’t learned about the point that he became Neal yet so that is kind of a giant blank aside from Tallahassee so we don’t know why he seems so different. I think a lot of us wonder, are we going to get that information or not? Because the long I go without it the harder time I have bonding with Neal.
I totally get it is NOT MRJ which is why this is so bizarre to me. And, for me at least, it really isn’t a matter of Hook vs. Neal when it comes to bonding with Neal because I have the same difficulty with him and his relationship with Rumple – aside from Manhattan something just falls very flat to me and I don’t know why.
Maybe it is that they are purposely trying to make him very different from all the other characters (as you pointed out with his dress, accent, etc) to make the point that he has spent so much time in the real world?? Maybe that’s why I feel like he doesn’t fit in with the rest of the characters?? Because he DOESN’T fit in with them and isn’t really supposed to fit in with them??
I get the whole Tamara can’t really be counted as a real fiancé thing because she was put there as a plot device and not as a real love interest for Neal and I can deal with him not mourning her because it is after all a TV show and they don’t have unlimited time to try make things realistic.
As far as the details of his character I do think, as others have said, that it just comes down to personal preference on who you like Emma with.
I have big expectations of his reunion with Wendy and I am hoping I won’t be disappointed because honestly, I haven’t really been happy with how they have handled the Hook/Neal reunion. I feel like they haven’t even addressed the issues between Hook and Neal and have just made it all about Emma which was what I was NOT wanting to see.
It seems like there are a lot of “reunions” that Neal should be having that he can’t really have because there are all these other life-threatening issues going on at the same time that are taking a higher priority. And that’s a bummer to me because with how pivotal Bae has been to so many people’s lives those reunions should be epic – I mean they are hundreds of years in the making!!!
By the way, my reason for asking the above is that I am both looking forward to and dreading the upcoming episode. I loved Bae, Wendy, and the Darlings. And I loved how much he wanted to go home to the Darlings when he was on Hook’s ship in NL. So I would expect Bae to be overcome with emotion at finding that Wendy has been held captive by PP for 100 years when they are reunited. So I am concerned that I am going to be let down by the reunion between Neal and Wendy. I am really hoping that they give Neal some good material to work with in this next episode.
First off – I COME IN PEACE
We had someone sail over to visit our CS ship to ask a few questions which was lovely and I actually have a question of my own. It isn’t necessary a SF question as much as a perspective question maybe??
Several of us over in CS land have made the comment that we LOVE Bae but as much as we want to love Neal we have just not been able to bond with him.
I, for one, was one of the people who was convinced from pretty early on that Henry’s father was going to be Bae so I was super excited when we found out he was! And I loved the Manhattan episode and MRJ just broke my heart with the way he did the whole “Is this my son?” scene.
And so then I was like, “Yay. Bae is back!!!” even though I had really liked the initial chemistry with Hook and Emma. But then it looked like they weren’t going to have Emma and Hook pursue a romantic relationship so it made sense to have Bae show up when he did.
So here’s my question. I was assuming that I was going to love Neal as much as I loved Bae. But I didn’t. When I try to figure out why I can’t bond with him it’s because I find him kind of “flat” or something. And it honestly has nothing to do with being in comparison to Hook, because like I said, I was assuming I was going to like him. So I have been trying to figure out why I find him “flat.” We have talked about this over on our CS ship as well and many of us think that he has been purposely written flat because we don’t think it is MRJ who is causing him to be flat. But since you are all happily sailing the SF ship you must not find him flat.
So do you feel like Neal gets the same caliber of writing and attention that the rest of the cast gets? And I am not talking about in comparison to Hook because I know there are a lot of people who feel like he gets way too much attention. If I were to completely take Hook off the show I still feel like Neal is flat compared to the other characters. I think everyone agrees something is odd with how ABC publicity leaves him out of the show synopsis and can’t seem to spell his name correctly. So that makes me wonder if he isn’t supposed to be considered one of the “important” characters?? But that doesn’t make sense considering how important Bae is to the entire curse and the entire show and the fact that MRJ is at all the publicity events.
My difficulty bonding with Neal actually started in Tallahassee. I didn’t find Emma and Neal’s relationship at all romantic or appealing (and again – it had nothing to do with Hook). But when we found out he was Bae I thought I would somehow come to love him because, well . . . he is Bae!
So I am just wondering, do you SF shippers see Neal being given just as much depth of character as the rest of the cast? Because I honestly feel like he doesn’t get much to work with and I don’t feel like he has been given much of an emotional connection to the other characters. And I have a very difficult time not separating Bae and Neal into two completely different people even though I don’t mean to. I didn’t have that problem with Rose playing young Cora and Barbara playing older Cora – I saw them as the same person regardless of which actress was on the screen. And even with Dr. Hopper, he’s still Jiminy Crickett. But I just can’t seem to keep continuity between MRJ and Dylan – they always feel like two completely different characters to me.
I would really like to enjoy Neal more as a character even if I do prefer Hook for Emma.
Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?
