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Well, I think you are taking the show a little too seriously and I don’t completely agree with your assessment, but you can’t help how you feel. It’s not my place to try to change that. I guess I just don’t get that worked up over a tv show. I enjoy the ride and brush off disappointments. And no, this doesn’t mean I like *everything*- for instance, I didn’t care for the whole Dr. Frankenstein arc and wished they’d stuck to fantasy stories. I love RumBelle but fear they are taking Rumple down a path that is making Belle look like a fool for staying with him. I’m not that crazy about the idea of bringing Marian back and the odd love triangle there, but I’m open to seeing how it plays out. I’m not opposed to critique, I just prefer a balance. When you do nothing but get on a soap box, I start to wonder if you still enjoy the show at all. I think the good still far outweighs the bad. I suppose you must too or you would have given up.
I don’t agree that I’m taking the show too seriously, as all I’ve asked for is a good plot, consistent, well-written characters, and a respect for the themes they decide to introduce. I’ve believed that saying nothing, welcomes you to be given the same thing over and over again, so I speak when I’m displeased. My remarks are written to be over dramatic for effect, yes, but they still hold true in a less extreme way. What can I say? I’m a sarcastic, snarky kinda gal. 😉 And my comments stem from the fact that I like this show too much to release its disappointments. It’s like seeing the bad movie adaption of your favorite childhood book series. (Oh, Cirque Du Freak! Why!? I’m sorry…flashbacks).
Also, I’m not attempting to sway you, I’m just explaining the thought process and why we Once cynics exist. I guess to de-villainize through exposition. For my sake, read all of the following text in a flat monotone (and preferably with Patrick Stewart-like inflections). It makes it seem less theatrical:
The Classic Descent into Once Cynicism (Lite)-
1.You get emotionally attached because storytelling is an art form meant for escapism and to provoke emotion. Referring to my rant earlier, suppose you’ve lost loved ones, and that show makes you feel terrible by tossing you a half done interpretation of loss. Suppose you are a PoC and you always see people who look like you being killed, or made as obstacles, on a show that you love. Suppose you are the wife of a cheating husband, and a show you love goes down the lane of halfway promoting the “other woman”. Suppose you knew someone in a relationship with a druggie, and… we have Belle being blind and manipulated, and it’s still pushed as happiness sometimes. Suppose even, that none of this directly connects to you, you just realize that the show is mishandling it’s own themes. Or suppose that it’s not emotional, but the writing has become predictable, or the characters erratic, or the plot too heavy for quality. You ask yourself, why? You form an opinion, subconsciously or otherwise. A negative one. Though it’s irrational, you may feel hurt, or in mine and most cases, very put off.
2. It becomes difficult to leave your disappointment alone because the show does not attempt to amend. Beyond that, you get worked up because you believed in the show, and was excited in the first place to see it. It may not be your stance, but when I begin to ignore the third or fourth time I’ve seen something troubling in a dramatic show (the things that I get angry at are pretty repetitive. And I don’t mean small things. I mean plot affecting things that span episodes, appearing at least once each season.), it means that I no longer have any anticipation or care for the show, at all. The frustration comes from lingering positive feelings. You don’t know whether you’re continuing to watch in hopes that it will return to entertaining you, because you want to see where it ends or because you know it will not disappoint.
3.You become attached to one of your few bright points of the show. Be it a favorite character, ship, or story arc, you feel safe here. As long as they don’t screw it up, you feel that the show is good. No more conflict within, no more holding on to the show out of a hope it will get better. It has! You have found a thing. 🙂
4.In your eyes, they screw that thing up eventually. You realize that you are not feeling the show again.
5.You begin to think more of the writers than you think of the show. The consistent glance over done by the creators makes you wonder if/why they are no longer putting effort into the show. You start to see through the show. You think of the creators as people who don’t care for extensive effort where they feel you will not notice (which seems to be an unfair number of times). Though, this may be true of many businesses, showing it outright is where the mistake lies. It removes the rose colored glasses, so to speak. The show is a business. People write what they think will placate us whether it’s good or not. That realization is dangerous. It’s never meant to occur.
You know what the kicker is? This doesn’t apply to all shows. Only shows like Once are usually subjected to this. I don’t look at Olivia and the President in a relationship and hate Scandal. I don’t put a halt on my enjoyment of Batman because Bruce can sometimes be an a-hole. A show like Once is subjected to this treatment more than the average dramatic show because it promotes it’s morals and what it is. If a show like that proceeds to half-a** what it publicizes…
6.You believe that the show is literally failing at what it is. They say it: This is a healthy relationship. This is empowerment, this is true love. This is a soulmate. This is justice. This is bold storytelling. This is what it all really means. You won’t expect this. When they screw up with that, it’s hard to brush it off. The problems are no longer passable. They are the theme of the season, or the theme of an entire relationship (platonic or not). Eventually your hands are going to hurt from all that brushing, and you’re going to complain about it.
8. You have to vent. There’s nothing worse than being frustrated by a possibly good thing. You want to know if others feel this way as well. Usually, you just sprinkle your negative thoughts in their with the good ones, but eventually, something happens, and the rant dam breaks.
7.Madness.
(8. nausea, vomiting and death…)
TL;DR: Methinks that the type of show that Once is, sets it’s fans up to be cynical after a few seasons. And because we don’t like to keep it bottled up, we talk about it here. We’re not jerks (except me, maybe). I promise.
[End of Patrick Stewart voice]And I do more than get on a soap box. I say when I like things as well as when I don’t. I once said I liked Regina’s character growth. That was a thing. This was just a time that I’d become so fed up with the lack of effort that I felt the need to vent. You’ve caught me in my final angry throes. I may stay with the show or leave it at this point (or hold onto with my teeth, screaming at it to do better because I love it, and it can’t leave me like this because we were meant to get married and grow old together). Honestly, it now depends upon what they do with Marian and the Rumbelle lie. I’m hoping for the best, though (as a cynic always silently is.)
Also, I did not mean to imply that you like everything about the show. That’s just plain impossible! I do know people, however, who just dislike the act of critiquing as a whole (“It’s there, but I don’t care for anyone to say anything about it” kinda thing).
[adrotate group="5"]Let us all keep in mind that THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS besides ONCE…. Maybe it is because we do not have cable or faster internet to stream and just can watch BROADCAST TVM… but there is nothing else to watch that is any good in this time slot….. SO I FEEL FORTUNATE that ONCE is such a good show that I enjoy it and not just because there is nothing else to watch. NONNIE . .
My goodness, some of you have become so cynical. Maybe I’m a Little Miss Sunshine among the fandom, but I loved the episode.
I am a bit cynical, but that is because I have been with this show from the beginning. I’ve seen it’s faults, and I’ve seen Once never attempt to learn from them. I will admit it is cynicism, but sadly, cynicism doesn’t come from thin air. Don’t be mistaken. I like this show, and that is why I criticize it.
I’ve seen Rumpel say better things to and for his son, and that is why I became appalled that the first time he saw his son buried in the ground, he used his final goodbye to boost himself and justify his murder of Zelena.
I’ve seen this show kill of PoCs left and right, and therefore, I will criticize the treatment of our newest potential victim.
I’ve seen villains justified when they shouldn’t be for the sake of fandom in a show that is supposedly about morals, and therefore, I will criticize OutlawQueen’s newest developments.
I’m sorry that it bothers you guys, but my remarks are all out of love. I know that some do not agree with criticizing things that they like, but that is simply the way that it is. I have stuck up for Once, but as something that I enjoy, I refuse to glance over so much waste. I find it to be an injustice, especially because I love this show.
…yeah, I dislike the love triangle thing with Marian. It’s…kinda icky in a lot of ways. (Not as icky as SOME love triangles they’ve had, but still.) I’d like to see some more characterization for Marian, too, if they’re going to have her around for any length of time. Right now, she’s still just “Marian” without any actual personality.
They are most likely not going to give her a personality other than “that woman who relates Regina to a monster”. If the writers give her a personality it will make it easier for casual viewers (because of course we are so blind) to feel disgusted when she is killed or unceremoniously removed from her husband and child, so that Robin falls back into Regina’s arms. Everyone ignores the little “innocent woman is treated unjustly” tidbit, the fans of Regina are simply happy to see her happy, and the show moves on. This is the way of the ship, my friend. She is not a person. She is an obstacle. (And of course a PoC, but that is the subject of entirely different hateful banter that I can indulge in.)
Oh, how wonderfully and blissfully naive I was back in my first comment on this situation. However, the more I think, the more I know that I was expecting too much.
Marian pleading with teary voice for help to Regina made me cringe even more. Why give the character character, she’s just some gimmick to trigger Regina’s newest back and forth.
Oh my, I didn’t think of this. Well, then. This makes me wonder if they’re giving her tiny bits of character because they truly haven’t given an inkling of thought to how terrible their OutlawQueen message really is. Ah well, either way, this is miles away from the best writing on the planet.
Bless you for using the term I coined
It just felt right, RG. I’d feared for the day when I had to use your words myself, but it had to happen. *slow, disappointed nod*
Least Favorite:
– I have to put my least favorite first this time because I feel…disgusted… I simply hated the graveyard scene. Never have I heard such a cold and selfish monologue. I expected this to be a tear-jerker. I expected Rumpel to act even an ounce like the Rumpel in every previous season, but he did not. There were no kind words for Baelfire, and what a good son he was, or the father to Henry he could have been. Rumpel spoke of what Baelfire made him feel, what his future plans were for himself, then pretty much said, “I’m better now, though. Bye!” Gone is the man who would have ended himself at the thought of losing his boy. The boy he destroyed worlds for. Rumpel wasn’t a father at his son’s grave, he was a writer, tying loose ends. He’s now suffering from the same disease that ONCE injects into every other character and plot point: Shiny Toy Syndrome, a sickness that makes characters on this show forget that they are supposed to feel in favor of moving the plot. This show had weight, meaning and symbolism, and season after season was slowly purged of every scrap. I know that some didn’t like Neal, but he was also Baelfire, and he was Rumpel’s happy ending. He was the purpose of all events in the show, and his life was a perfect and seemingly deliberate set up to be a modern fairytale of mind blowing proportions. ONCE gutted this potential with his death, and cleaned the body out with this scene. They took all possibility and innovation and tossed it like debris on the street. They scraped every last bit of season 1 from this show in that scene alone. This tripe was ONCE’s conclusion to the search for a child that spanned centuries and worlds. I don’t know how to feel about this show now. Every bit of potential it once had to be smart, touching and meaningful has waned to nearly nothing, if it hasn’t gone already. ONCE is starting to look more and more like a fitting name for this show, as it ONCE was many things. I apologize for the rant, but that was eye-gouging-ly torturous to watch, and I’m not even a huge Neal fan.
– I’m still not sure about this Frozen thing. It’s going a bit better than I would think, but I still don’t know.
– Methinks Ana doth ramble too much. I was never a big Frozen fan, but even I never characterized Ana as being that…well, ditzy.
– This episode as a whole underwhelmed me, especially as a premiere…
Favorite:
– Pabbie had some surprisingly good CGI, as did Marshmellow. Though, I think it’s distracting for them to both look so much like the films versions.
– The situation between Regina/Marian/Robin is being handled better than I thought it would. From the beginning, I thought the show was just going to demonize Marian (because shipping, of course). To my eternal satisfaction it does not seem to be going that way. Marian is actually shown as being justified in her emotions (And she completely is. I also hope the shows intent was to make her seem understandable, instead of this just being a botched demonizing of Marian.).
– I’m beginning to wonder if this arc is going to come to the villains finally realizing that they must earn their happiness, and strive to change even in the face of adversity. Also, it makes me feel as if there is finally going to be a true investigation of what a happy ending is and is not.</li>
– Regina is not handling things the best way that she could, but it’s a lot more sensible than she would have in the past. I saw her growth here, even though she was backsliding.
– Regina’s interactions with Sidney were amusing sometimes. It was refreshing to see Sidney back.
-Despite my feelings of horror over Rumpel’s cold attitude at the graveyard, I did have happy, dorky feels for the dance, and Belle’s invoking of squatter’s rights on someone else’s house.
I think the deal wasn’t Cora HAD to have a child with Rumple, it was IF Cora had a child with Rumple, that would be the one she owed.
Ah, but that was never said. That’s what I’m getting at. We can’t do the writing for the writers. If there was such a loophole, it would be mentioned. I realize that they’d never have Rumpel force himself onto anyone. That’s gross, out of character, and this is a family show. But, he did change the contract. That was plainly stated. So, why not write in a price for her as they did for Cinderella? Rumpel always says that no one breaks a deal with him, and maintains that it doesn’t happen EVER without a price. But as long as we see that Cora just floated out of there, that’s no longer true.
Believe me, there were ways of pursuing the deal (but as I said, gross, out of character, non family options). So, really the deal was never rendered null and void, because regardless, there were options. However, because he’s NOT that kind of monster, I always wonder why he didn’t just take something away from Cora? Make her life miserable? Something? I always wonder if Regina pushing Cora through the mirror is the price Cora had to pay for breaking the deal. Or maybe he did get “their” child because he and Cora did manipulate Regina, and Rumpel has been referred to as a “daddy” figure. But I’m not sure.
It’s just an odd little thing that really annoyed me when I first saw the episode.
Why not? Nothing said she had to have a child with Rumple IMO. Besides there always had been means and with magic sure some more to avoid to have a child.
As I said above, that’s kind of writing for the writers. He blatantly says “Can we change the contract from your baby to our baby?” And she says “Yes”. The contract is changed. That baby is an obligation, because that is how contracts work. There is nothing in the episode to suggest otherwise. Nothing to give you cause to assume that she doesn’t owe it, other than suspending your disbelief. No other talk, of no other loophole, of this not being an official change in the deal.
You don’t make a contract with your car dealer, but once you get the car say “I’m sorry, but no cent of the money I agreed to give you will ever be yours.” No, no. You would have to pay, or end up in jail. That’s all that I’m saying. True enough, there were no consequences in show, but Cora should have had one, just as Cinderella did. She should not have been able to pull out of the deal. He said the deal is changed. She agreed. That means she pays or he punishes her. Point blank. Saying that you don’t think that happened is ignoring what was said plainly in the show.
Also, I didn’t mean to suggest that Cora thought it was a bad idea at the time. I was just using the weight of this new deal to assure others in past posts about Cora’s sincerity in wanting to be with Rumpel. I was saying basically that IF she had been planning the whole time to outsmart him, then accepting his amendment to the deal was very foolish, and that is why I think she WAS being sincere. (And I do agree that Rumpel was blinded by love to make such a bad decision that could have caused him to end up like Henry Sr.)
So, this is me more wondering why the writers didn’t think more about this and write in a penalty for Cora as they did with Cinderella. “No one breaks a deal with me” is already one of Rumpel’s slogans. We all know that they wouldn’t have Rumpel take “their” child by force. So, why not have Cora pay the proper penance instead of just forcing this at me and telling me that it makes sense? Either the writers want me to assume that he let Cora get away with no skin off her nose, because he loved her still, or that in some way he did obtain his price. It could be that through his and Cora’s shared manipulation of Regina, he did become Regina’s “father”. Or maybe, the writers just didn’t think things through.
I just dunno. It will always bother me until I am sure. :/
Not quite sure if I can follow your thinking, @schaendlich. It’s not like Cora ever really cared about Zelena, she probably gladly would have handed her to Rumple as price for becoming a royal, if the contract would have stayed unchanged.
Just to be clear, I was not insinuating that Cora cared at all about Zelena. I know full well that Cora cared nothing about Zelena. I just wanted to make a point to say that Cora’s decline to pay the price being accepted as her “getting out” of the contract makes no sense. I also wanted to make the point that she most likely was not playing Rumpel when she accepted the change, because it would probably lead to her giving up her chances to achieve her personal goals, point blank. She can’t be preggers for nine months before Henry even touches her without Henry finding out about it. Even Henry’s father said that everyone knew that Cora was cavorting with Rumpel. Especially if Rumpel came and claimed the child when it was born, Cora would be found out, and her dreams would be over. She would have a personal price to pay by accepting. Not only that, but a personal price that would cost her any chance to be royalty. I.e. she would “lose” if it had been a scheme to get a foothold on the Dark One.
When I said she couldn’t outsmart the Dark One, it was only in the sense that in accepting she could no longer remove herself from having a child with Rumpel. My message really had nothing to do with Cora or Zelena as villains, or the stupidity of Rumpel’s choice. I just wanted to point out that plot hole and to hear everyone’s take on why she was allowed off the hook.
I wonder if I’m the only one, but…does anyone else realize that Cora could not have possibly gotten out of her deal? The moment it changed from “Cora’s firstborn” to “Rumpel and Cora’s firstborn”, Cora owed Rumpel that child by all intents and purposes. She couldn’t have just refused because she didn’t want to have the baby. So, even if it hadn’t been Rumpel who proposed that amendment to her deal, I don’t think Cora had any ulterior motives in accepting. She wouldn’t gain anything but a debt she knew would be more difficult to repay. If this was a scheme, Cora lost the battle, and could not, at that point, feasibly outsmart the Dark One.
In fact, even if the deal went unchanged, she would still owe it to Rumpel to tell him the location of, or retrieve Zelena herself. A price doesn’t become null and void because it inconveniences the payer.
If anyone knows that you can’t just shimmy out of a deal, it’s Rumpel. And if anyone isn’t going to be swindled over something so simple, it’s Rumpel.
So, the questions that I have for you guys are these: Do you think Rumpel let her off out of some small semblance of affection? Or has Cora paid some sort of cost for her abandonment that was unseen, or that we never realized was a price? Or have A and E just not thought that much about this point?
If it’s not explained in show, this episode has a HUGE pothole with Cora just saying “No”and sauntering out of there. XD
If Emma knew who Marian was, there would be two respectable options:
1. She would have saved her, anyway. Had she known the entire story, and it involved the knowledge that Marian would die that night, Marian’s influence on the future would have ended there. So, saving her by bringing her to the present, would most likely not directly affect how time unfolded in any large or discernible way (with the loose concept of time travel that OUAT is using). Considering, she’d already change large elements of the past, it would be difficult to leave this woman to die if there was a strong possibility that she didn’t have to. So, yeah. Emma would save her, because the relationship that her frenemy has gained through killing (which would probably the case) Marian, an innocent woman is not as important as saving Marian. I would personally have a lot less respect for Emma if she decided that Regina’s relationship did mean more.
2. She would have left Marian, but told Robin what Regina did. And OutlawQueen would be over. You think you’re angry with Emma now? Had that happened, I know that many would flip their lids. And it would be worse, because Regina would have no defense for her actions, no means to continue their relationship, and no alive Marian to make her seem like a better person, or make Robin feel better about even being friends with Regina.
I sadly agree with you, JML.
It’s going to hurt Regina, but she’s got to go through some things to get to redemption, and her biggest flaw is that she expects that completing a couple good deeds (that were usually to absolve wrongs that she committed) is going to lead to her redemption. So, if anything, it’s an amazing thing that Emma brought Marian back. WHEN Robin found out about Regina’s hand in killing his wife and his son’s mother, (by possibly burning her alive, as I can assume that was the preferred method of execution from ep. 22), Regina’s life would be screwed, not because Robin died, but because Robin would absolutely hate her. He’d never let her near his son, or himself. Ever. Again. Regina and Robin are still “destined” apparently, so something will probably happen that drives Robin and Regina back together again. However, If Marian was still dead, their “true love” would immediately sag and shrivel like aging skin.
Emma really saved Regina’s a** here. She preserved the timeline, and saved someone’s life. She truly didn’t do anything that deplorable, and if Regina punishes her or everyone AGAIN, but this time because her attempted execution of an innocent woman was prevented, I will be very annoyed. There is good villainy, and there is making someone selfish, clueless and unfairly entitled in a very redundant way. If she flops again, in the same way we’ve seen her flop before, this will make it more difficult to root for her redemption (Goodness knows Rumpel has headed there, for quite some time with me), and really make me lose more faith in the writers. We’ve already seen them just pass that Regina has absolutely no regrets for what she’s done, now depending upon if they play this badly, it’ll be shown that she has also learned nothing from her past. Therefore redemption will =0.
However, if she handles the situation by just being angry without harming anyone or deterring any plans, I will consider this situation character growth. But knowing Once, I don’t think this will happen. Marian will die whether Regina is good or not (because PoCs shouldn’t exist for too long, I guess), then, Regina and Robin will get “jiggy with it” once more, with little conflict or mention of Marian thereafter. *sigh*
