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About the Hook in the trunk thing.
I’m thinking it may be a power trip. I dunno why, but it just seems like something Zelena would do to demonstrate her complete control over the situation. I mean, no one can touch Rumpel. Regina’s just a little bit beneath him, Emma is still focusing on transporting cups.
Just thinking like Zelena, I would tell Rumpel to ride in, in his new suit, waltz right into town and take Hook, threatening the life and the lives of the the loved ones of anyone who was near. I would tell Rumpel that if Belle was there, he couldn’t speak to, or even touch her or he’d have to kill her (just to punish Rumpel for his little escapade last ep.)
It would be delicious to have him so close to everyone he wants to protect, while simultaneously making him into a gun aimed at their heads. No tracking spells, Regina. No following, Charmings. Or he kills you and everyone you love (save Snow, of course). It would make my enemy feel powerless to know that this man who could kill them all, is under such control that he can literally walk into to town and take someone away.
No one would feel safe, even for an instant after that. And that relief that Emma would have when I have Rumpel return Hook unscathed would drive her into his arms. She’d want to express her feelings, knowing that, like Neal, anyone could go at any time. Hook would know what to do then, to protect the lives of Emma and Henry. He’d kiss her, and my plan would commence. If I were Zelena, I would eat that kind of pure intimidation up.
But, I’m not Zelena. And it’s probably just shoddy writing. XD
[adrotate group="5"]You took the words right out of my mouth.
Regina is finally making good choices, and it’s really boosting her up, for me. I do agree that beforehand she was punishing others for her pain. I’ve believed that from the very start. I’m glad she’s done fishtailing though. It was nice to see her as an evil being, but now it’s just as enjoyable to watch her awkwardly try to redeem herself. I say awkward because it’s so obvious that she’s not used to being good, or people liking her (even in the slightest). 😉
Wow…I thought I was alone on this as well. I actually posted a couple of things here a few pages back about how Snow being so apologetic actually hinders Regina’s and her character growth. Gosh, Snow needs to take a chill pill and sit down somewhere!
The way that I pinpointed it was that it seemed as if the show was trying to make her seem wrong when she wasn’t doing the pure (and I mean inhumanly pure) things. She’s actually punished by the plot for her actions when she’s not sacrificing for someone else. I noticed that, and I don’t know why A&E are writing it that way…
They also did it this episode by having Snow actually take Cora’s side and call her own mother (whom Cora killed) a “brat” for being angry at Cora and telling the truth so that Cora couldn’t steal her fiance. That felt EXTREMELY wrong…and very odd, indeed.
Either it’s very morally confusing writing, or it’s actually building up to something…I’m going with the former.
That’s really interesting. I always thought that she’d try to switch the baby with her at some point…but I never thought that she was the baby. Wow.
Thanks, Grimmsistr. I was beginning to think I was alone.
I just wanted to make it clear that I’m not a hater. Regina is becoming one of my favorites. 😀
Firstly, I’m not angry or upset. I was just having a friendly discussion. I don’t mean to upset you, if I have, but I must reply, and then clarify.
As for the Hansel and Gretel….The Kids had a choice! Regina may have been the Evil Queen but she always had a soft spot for kids…she just offered them an offer they could never refuse! But the kids, like young Snow, had a CHOICE! To say no! There is no proof on the show that Regina would knowingly kill kids….she warned every child the chances of them not coming out, they accepted of their own free will! Even when H and G insulted Regina after giving her the apple, after she made them the promise of anything they desired…she still released their father to go find them on his own.
You can argue that Regina was pure and Rumpel just rubbed off on her, and influenced her. And yet, in the same argument you say that these children who she knows could have died had a choice, and therefore it is okay that Regina did this? Yes, they could have said no, just as Regina could have said no to Rumpel. That is true. However, Regina is the reason they were in the situation to accept her offer. Regina is the one that kidnapped their father. Since you glanced over it, Regina let their father go, but made it so that no matter how long or hard he looked, he would never find them. Rumpel gave Regina the option, but I never exempted his behavior. He was a bastard for that. And so is Regina. Yet, you’re acting like Regina putting two children in a situation to risk their lives is some sort of good deed…
Especially if you are so pure, an evil being giving you an out that you know will hurt people cannot be excused. If a man decides to run a family off the road because his wife died, he’d still be prosecuted. That is because personal pain, never gives another the excuse to hurt someone else. Lest we forget, Regina murdered Graham who (because their kiss began to revive some of his memories) could have very well been Emma’s true love at that point. Did she use that as a lame excuse to hurt multiple innocent people to get back at Regina? No. Did she use the lame excuse of not having her dead boyfriend come back to life to kill hundreds of innocent people and enslave others? No. She saved Regina’s life. Because, despite not being as pure as Regina was, she chose to do the right thing. And this is with Rumpel around trying to manipulate her.
I’m not saying that anyone is exempt from the influence they had on Regina. I am saying that Regina, in the end, holds most of the blame for the things she’s done. A fair share goes to Cora for being a beast. A fair share goes to Rumpel being the instigator. The smallest share goes to a 10 year old being…a 10 year old (i.e. naive about a lot of things).
Also, Cora? We can’t ignore the fact that she was willing to kill, steal, lie and abandon her child to get ahead in life before she lost her heart. Therefore, that smile spoke of Cora’s blossoming love for Regina. It does not speak of how she would treat the others, especially if they were keeping something precious like Henry away from Regina. Also, would you risk your family’s life on the chance that the woman who killed your mother would turn a new leaf? If you said yes, then you are a saint. (No sarcasm, you are an uncannily nice human being. Even moreso than Snow). Yeah, Rumpel really did give Snow an offer she couldn’t refuse. He was very wrong for that. I was facepalming the whole time, going “Rumpel…you are screwing up your redemption. I love you, but please…” However, the information he told Snow about, I would have seen as reasonable. I would forever be guilty with the reason I was so anxious to kill this woman. Revenge is bad, and I’d forever know that revenge was on the forefront of my mind when I did the deed. However, despite my anger, I would never in a million years risk the lives of my husband, child , and grandchild on the possibility that a woman who murdered my mother would possibly be good if I gave her heart back. Especially considering that I didn’t know what kind of person she was when she had one, and the only person alive who did was scared of her (and also happened to be the most powerful guy around).
In closing, Regina is a good character, and in her day, a darn good villain. I hope you don’t think that I’m a Regina hater because of my statements. I just hate how it kind of insults her character when people make it seem like she has no choice in things, or that her manipulation and pain mean more than the morals of the show. She chose, and that makes her character stronger for me. It was the wrong choice, but it was hers. That’s why I liked her, and considered her redemption a nice concept. I only started to dislike her when she began to pull the “Everyone’s fault but mine” spiel.
People are wrong. Sometimes infinitely wrong, and taking that away from Regina turns her into a Mary Sue, in my opinion. Now that she’s quit that, I like her again. I was one of the few who was okay with her having no regrets in Neverland, because it empowered her choice, whether it was wrong or right. That was my whole point of replying. I wasn’t meaning to show hatred for Regina, or make her into this nonredeemable thing. My point was just to say that Regina stands on her own two feet. She pulls her weight, and she is not a Sue who just gets her badness glossed over. She is a powerful character and woman who made a series of good and bad choices to get where she is, and that’s worth it. She’s her own person: not *insert tragic backstory here*. I just really value that, I guess, and I just had to let out that I didn’t enjoy how everyone takes all responsibility off of her shoulders. It weakens her, to me. I like her too much for that, I guess.
That actually makes me think back to my other comment when the pictures of Hook and Emma in different clothing in the EF came out. I said that if Hook had changed so much (and it looked like he wasn’t wearing a hook), then whatever alternate timeline that was occurring here, involved a change far before the existence of Regina and the Charmings.
So, now I’m wondering if that’s it. What if he does get the curse and stops the mistake that started it all to ever happen? I loved, especially, your suggestion that the shadow would come back (because Pan would still be alive). A and E said they wanted to visit Pan again. That could open up to a story arch wherein everyone meets again(Because on Neverland, Rumpel and Baelfire could live the hundreds of years it takes to have the others…exist, I guess. )
Also, Regina could still exist if Leo found out about the pregnancy some other way, and had to give Zelena up anyway for a new start. Though, things would have to twist a whole bunch for her to survive TMD without Rumpel. Maybe Henry realizes what is happening and saves Cora from his father’s cruelty? Then, there is Regina’s birth. However, no Rumpel means no magic, so she’d have to find it elsewhere…This is getting too tangled.
I still hope that this is where the season is headed though. I really want to see the alternate world, and see how (if ever) everyone comes to the realization that this isn’t their destiny. Could you imagine how they might be perfectly happy, but would have to give up their happiness to go through all the crap again, just to do the right thing. Loved ones saying goodbye. Parents having to give up and lose their children all over again. If it’s well played, I would love to see it.
Favorite:
- Regina!! Darling, I’ve never been able to say this, but you made the episode for me. Go get your man, Regina. Stop being a victim because you are a queen! Right on! *high five*
- Belle is being a hero. I am too happy. It’s like she’s finally part of something. She is interacting with Emma. Has that ever even happened?
- Belle telling Regina off, and ordering her to get out of the shop.
- Regina, then, being like “Yeah, okay. I suck for all that stuff”.
Least Favorite:
- Snow…Oh my goodness. Just when I thought I’d be proven wrong about what I said about her being treated unfairly, they just…I have had it up to here. It’s annoying. Stop. If this show has her blame herself or any other part of her family, calling them dark and bratty or somesuch, for something that was completely reasonable to do ever again, I am beating something to death with a wrench. She has insulted the memory of her mother by calling her a brat because she told the truth about the woman who stole her fiance and later murdered her. You have insulted your mother’s memory to the nth degree! Why? To boost up the woman who murdered her. If I was Princess Eva, I would be so ashamed of my daughter’s behavior at that point.
- Zelena and Regina’s dialogue felt a bit too hammy for my tastes.
- Cora’s scenes were okay. I didn’t hate them, but I didn’t enjoy them beyond belief
- Rumpel…No. Please, stop. Stop. I’m crying, Rumpel. Stop.
- Zelena not being dead.
- Zelena moaning.
- Zelena not being dead.
Other than that, it was a pretty good episode.
Ok….just need to add a few things to set the record straight on the Queen’s behalf… 1. Regina was in fact…the purest woman ever on the show aside from Belle…(and don’t bring up Snow because she was a snooty thing when she was young). When I look at the fact of…entrusting a secret that you begged and pleaded with a 10 year old girl to keep, and we all knew what a secret was. And when you specify to not tell your mother, and the girl goes behind your back and does it anyway….uhhh….yeah…I’d be pretty (beep) off about that. Snow obviously knew what a secret was because she kept Miss Blue Fairy’s, and she’s not as naïve as we thought she was because she was all of a sudden wise enough to not use the dark candle on Eva.
There’s no proof that Regina was the purest woman there. Also, There is no proof at all that Snow was out to get anyone. The way that it was portrayed was that Snow was talked out of it by an adult. Yes, she knew what a secret was, but she was 10, as you said. She thought it’d be for the best because she believed in true love and the goodness of people. This transformation was even shown after her mother’s death. She was obviously not the same brat that had snapped at her maid. That was the whole point of introducing that flashback. So, no. As far as the show says, 10 year old Snow was not trying to “get” anyone. Also, she didn’t want to sacrifice someone’s life even to save her mother. That’s not being wise, that’s being kind.
So Snow knew right from wrong, and I still say…a part of Snow White wanted to tell that secret to get Regina. Hence shown in The Stable Boy when she was cursed Mary Margret, and was being interrogated…she said and I quote: “Yes I wanted her gone…she was the only thing that was keeping us apart, so yeah I wanted her gone! Is that what you wanna hear?” No matter how you twist it…that was the very small 15 percent of Snow White that felt the same way about Daniel, but that may not have been where she was mostly coming from when she told Cora the secret. But a small part of her…really didn’t care too much about keeping that secret.
Nothing says anything about Daniel. That’s an assumption that can’t be backed up. When she spoke, she spoke of her own guilt for wanting a man who was “taken” (Charming/David). It had nothing to do with Daniel. So, no matter how you twist it, Daniel was not on cursed Mary Margaret’s mind, because Mary Margaret is not Snow. That’s the point of the curse. So, that evidence can be dismissed. It’s pure speculation that is not supported by the history plaintiff. Nor is it supported by the details of the crime.
2. As far as the Rumpelstilskin situation goes…he’s been pining after Regina before she was even conceived. He had plans to make his monster for 300 years. After all is said and done…he convinces Regina to send Cora away. Had Rumple not stopped Regina on that road…she would have LEFT! HE convinced her to stay by using her newfound love for magic, and asked her to let him teach her magic. Though he said it was entirely up to her if she became like Cora…he didn’t give her a choice because he stole what could have been her Second chance with Daniel had he not hired Jefferson and Whale to break her even further down. Thus he got his “monster”.
I agree. with this partially. I love Rumpel, but he did some pretty crappy things. However, Regina has her own mind. SHE made the decision to stay. Frankenstein’s failed experiment shows that there is no way to bring back the dead fully. This was stated multiple times as a law. Not even the good doctor could do it. Daniel would have been an experiment either way. A new guinea pig with only a chance of being revived to the fullest. You can’t say that because Regina’s dead lover stayed there’s any sufficient justification for the defendant’s actions.
Rumpel tempted Regina, yes, but she chose the life that she did. There are plenty of characters on this show who lost their loves and/or lived lives that were just as crappy. However, they didn’t do what she did. With that reasoning, the only person to be blamed is Peter Pan, because he was the root of Rumpel’s evil, which is the root of Regina’s evil, which is the root of Snow’s vengeance against Regina (killing Cora). You can’t say that anyone made any one do anything, without skipping straight back to him. Which would remove the entire purpose for this trial, and entertain the idea that human beings do not possess free will or reponsibility. Rumpel didn’t make Regina murder who knows how many children by giving them to the blind witch. Rumpel didn’t make Regina hate Snow, and kill her father, and townspeople. Rumpel didn’t make Regina commit mass murder. Rumpel doesn’t make anyone do anything. That’s the point behind everything he does. It has been more than twice that he has presented a deal with clear expectations of payment, and consequence. He has also never forced one to sign on the dotted line. He doesn’t tell people what to do. He lets them go as far as they will to get what he has offered. He’s a travelling salesman.
“Can you handle the consequences?” “You’ll owe me something precious.” All of this he says to Cinderella. Do we then say that Rumpel made Cinderella bet her first born? No. That would be as ridiculous as saying that a salesman made you buy that television.
“Objection! This trial is not about Rumpelstiltskin.”
“Sustained”
Fine. If Regina pursued her dark heart, that is no one’s fault but hers. Even after seeing the things that Rumpel went through in childhood, and beyond I still say that it is his choice, because it was. You say that a 10 year old knew right from wrong? So did 18 year old Regina. The only difference is that Snow didn’t know that her choice would end up killing someone. Regina can’t be excused in that department.
But Snow killed Eva Cora out of vengeance…period point blank. She used Cora’s threat as an excuse to have a justifiable reason in killing her, because had it been really justifiable…Snow wouldn’t have that black spot on her heart. So yeah…she killed Cora out of vengeance. And God pray….Zelena never learns that she did that, because she seems like the type of girl with an eye for an eye(#SaveSnowingBaby) That sums up my defense of the Queen….
Again, I partially agree. Snow killed Cora. She killed her out of anger instead of necessity. But, her intent is the only thing out of place. Either way, Snow had no out. If she crushed Cora’s heart, Rumpel would have died and Snow would have been responsible for the deaths of two people. Without “guard dog” Rumpel, Regina would have been free to slaughter them all like cattle.
“Your honor! Objection!”
Withdrawn. Ahem. There is no guarantee that Regina would not have brought bodily harm upon the plaintiff. Further If she had given Cora the heart, there was no guarantee that this would have saved them. The only knowledge Snow had of Cora was as the woman who killed her mother. Why would she risk the lives of her family on a guess?
Cora had a history of violence and disregard for human life even before she gave her heart. Knowing that she was no longer pretending to love Regina, hardly negates the fact that we have no idea how she’d react to the others. Regina fell in line when her mother told her to. If Cora insisted on killing them anyway and going on to living a happy life with Henry, that could be it. So, there wasn’t a choice for Snow. Either they died or the didn’t. Snow’s personal reasons for killing Cora caused the dark spot, but that didn’t make Cora’s death in that exact fashion unnecessary.
If you can find a solution to the dillemma that would have resulted in Cora not dying the way that she did, but also leaving the main characters (Charmings) most definitely breathing, I’ll hear it. With that, Your honor, I draw my argument to a close.
All I have to say… Regina is Snow White’s Step Mother in the end…whether they like it or not…which I think they’re liking it! And RG and HE…as far as the Cora death and Daniel death thing goes…I think Regina and Snow really let out there frustration in that blowout in NL(which Regina won) and that’s why we can say the Past is in the Past….Snow and Regina would be there all day if Regina went down saying how she was sorry about everything… Sometimes…it’s best to let it go. Both have done their wrong toward the other, and cannot take back…so just move forward which is what they’re doing.
I’m just going to copy my comment again, since you probably didn’t see it:
“I agree. I’d been fine (not great, but fine) if she didn’t apologize. It’s the fact that Snow is literally punished when she does something that (I’m sorry to say it) needs to be done. And that they keep having her do it. A&E may not see it, but it’s putting a bad light on Regina’s redemption, not because she didn’t apologize back, but because Snow did again. If the game has always been that everybody says sorry to make Regina happy, then Regina admitting her mother is terrible, is smothered by Snow’s apology. It’s a hard thing to get by.
Just like with Rumpel having to show that he can do the right thing without Belle in his ear, Regina has to show that she can hold her own when people aren’t on her side, or don’t care about her pain (rightfully, of course). The only way to fix this (in my eyes) is for Snow to stand up for herself at least once without getting whipped, and for Regina to…not like it…but live with it.”
So, I’ve got no issue with them moving on. I’ve got an issue with the show penalizing someone for not sucking up to a person who has consistently ruined her life. I don’t mind them moving on. I’m all for it. I just hate the huge, glaring “Snow must put her self down” sign that they’ve been showing to get there.
I think the words are always good to hear, and you’re right, they should be said. But sometimes you have to look at the actions that go with them. How hollow is Regina’s ‘sorry I killed like, 1000 people’ in comparison to her now actively supporting Snow? The protection spell around the apt, for example. Though totally useless, because none of them actually stay IN the apt…the act itself is kind. And it comes from a place of honestly wanting to protect Snow because I think she’s finally starting to see the girl she met all those years ago and truly find love for her again.
I agree. I’d been fine (not great, but fine) if she didn’t apologize. It’s the fact that Snow is literally punished when she does something that (I’m sorry to say it) needs to be done. And that they keep having her do it. A&E may not see it, but it’s putting a bad light on Regina’s redemption, not because she didn’t apologize back, but because Snow did again. If the game has always been that everybody says sorry to make Regina happy, then Regina admitting her mother is terrible, is smothered by Snow’s apology. It’s a hard thing to get by.
Just like with Rumpel having to show that he can do the right thing without Belle in his ear, Regina has to show that she can hold her own when people aren’t on her side, or don’t care about her pain (rightfully, of course). The only way to fix this (in my eyes) is for Snow to stand up for herself at least once without getting whipped, and for Regina to…not like it…but live with it.
