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Yes, OUAT in WL was pretty good, as it had compelling characters and a contained start, middle and end, but it was only one season in length.
Yes. This is a great point so I went back and did some digging. OUATinWL was 13 episodes; A and E penned zero of those by themselves. Every episode that has A and E’s name on it also has at least one other writer–Zack Estrin or Jane. To compare this to Dead of Summer…its roughly the same so far. No episodes with just their name on it; Ian Goldberg gets credit for writing the pilot with them. Now that’s going to change next week when A and E pen episode 3 (and then 4) by themselves, without Goldberg. So I’ll have a more solid ground to analyze after that. But, so far, episode 2 (no A and E) was better than episode 1 (A and E, plus Ian Goldberg)
That’s so interesting. I was reading another fan blog about whether or not A&E are good writers. You can read that here: part 1 and part 2. It was also supported by another source regarding the terrible plot and writing of Dead of Summer and whether that points to OUAT season 1 having been planned out mostly by someone else (aka Damon Lindelof — showrunner of Lost). To quote from that source (edited for profanity):
Sooooo does this add fire to the “OUAT S1 was someone else’s genius creation” speculation ?
That’s not speculation. In an interview given by Adam and Eddie for the Nov 2013 edition of Written By (the [Writers Guild of America’s] magazine) the following is said:
After a 10-year writers’ block, including a detour to script the feature Tron: Legacy, they still couldn’t find their way into Once. The two had a deal at ABC, as did Lindelof, so they pitched the idea to him, and he encouraged them to follow through on it—more than once. They sent three outlines to the studio, “but before they could give us notes, Adam and I would call and say, ‘We don’t like it; we want to change our minds,’” Kitsis recalls.
Time was passing, and they were very, very late to get a pilot script in. Finally, they received a visit from then-head of ABC TV Barry Jossen and now-head of ABC TV Patrick Moran, who sat the writers down and in a very tough-love way, according to Kitsis, said: “‘Stop f–king around. This is a great idea, you guys can do it, so do it.
So they left and we immediately ran up to Damon’s office and we were like, ‘F–k them, there’s no way to do this. Unless you do this, unless you do that…’ and all of a sudden we had the pilot.”
One could almost hear the munchkins singing “You’re Out of the Woods.”
They assumed Lindelof would take an executive producer credit, but he demurred. “We were like, ‘Oh, because you hate the idea, you don’t f–king believe in us,’” says Kitsis. “And he said, ‘If I put my name on it, it’s my show and everyone will only write about me.’” Horowitz calls it the purest form of mentor- ship. “He was trying to help us realize our vision. He didn’t want anything out of it other than seeing us grow and succeed.”
As first-time creators and showrunners, they applied what they learned from everyone they’d ever worked with. They even created characters that recalled their mentors’ work. “The Evil Queen is a very Ryan character, a strong, tough woman who will get in your face and scare the hell out of you,” Kitsis notes. “Rumpelstiltskin is a Damon character—you’re never quite sure where you’re standing, he’s Machiavellian. Not that these are reflections of these writers’ personalities, [but] it is their style.”
The full article can be found here, but unfortunately, the Written By no longer exists in an official online form without a subscription. The original article was published in Nov. 2013.
[adrotate group="5"]"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
So what I wanted to test with Dead of Summer was if their writing is actually good but been hammered to death by fan demand/ABC demand OR if they are really just poor writers with only a vague sense of mythology, world building, character development, gender politics, and everything else we talk about in this thread. We’re only two episodes into Dead of Summer so I’m not quite ready to make a fully fledged conclusion yet but let’s say that so far….I’m leaning toward the latter more than the former.
I think it might be very difficult to ascertain which case it is after only one season. Yes, OUAT in WL was pretty good, as it had compelling characters and a contained start, middle and end, but it was only one season in length. Had it been renewed for another season, it might have become dreadful, as its parent show did. I think A&E might suffer from both lack of long-term planning and fan pandering. Unless Dead of Summer intends to be more than one season in length, it might become near impossible to gauge which it is. Having written that, I would be curious to know your opinion after the summer ends, as I don’t intend on watching it. I’ve learned my lesson with OUAT and don’t ever plan to watch another show produced by A&E.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
I both agree and disagree with this. It isn’t so much about condensing the show but integrating new characters better. We don’t need new characters flashbacks straight away, we as the audience need to get to know these characters before we care about their past. The way to do that would be to have the characters interact with the core group in PRESENT DAY instead of trying to force them in to the core group’s past.
I don’t think it’s simply a matter of integrating new characters better in the present day, since the writers have shown they’re incapable of doing so. You gave the example of Hook, but what narrative purpose does he serve now? Sure, Colin is pretty to look at, but when the writers tried making Hook the reason that Emma fully embraced the darkness and dragged her family to hell, all it really did is make Emma seem desperate and unhinged and that relationship really unhealthy. Unless that was the entire point, it was bad all around. In 5×1-5×3, Emma was mad at her family (the implication being that originally everyone in Emma’s family had failed her, except Henry, which is what made her turn dark). Then in 5×7, the writers changed course. Her goal of saving Hook, no matter the cost, is what turned her dark after all, rather than her family failing her. Clearly, that was done in attempt to give Hook’s character major relevance. But that had poor effects on everyone in S5. Also, Hook has never really been integrated with the group beyond Emma. Sure, Emma convinced her family to go to hell to get her boyfriend back, but they weren’t there for Hook. They were there for Emma, which made Emma feel really guilty and ended up costing Merlin and Robin Hood their lives. Robin Hood is another excellent example of a character who never really fit into the core group, despite being Regina’s boyfriend. The writers never fully integrated him nor even tried to make him interesting. He was never given a good backstory, nor was he given much to do, except be raped by Zelena (twitch). Thus, they killed him. That is my long way of saying that I don’t think the outside characters simply need to be included better. I think the writers simply need to stop trying to introduce outside characters, since when the writers have clearly tried that before, they’ve shown they do a very poor job of it.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
“When they killed Neal, they killed the core of the show.” Really that’s it.
Kill the show’s catalysis and you kill the momentum, simple as that. Reuniting with Baelfire was always the behind-the-scene driving force and the end goal of the show. Without him, Rumple’s modus operandi is simply gone. By extension, characters like Emma and Henry also lost out on their really happy ending. Even the conflict between Snow and Regina was all engineered so that Regina would cast the curse to find Rumple’s lost son. Characters like Snow, Charming and Regina consequently suffer as their character portrayal is weakened with the passing of time as A&E try to come up with “twists” like the baby-snatching twist or the reveal that Regina had a long-lost sister that she conveniently forgot about but who then raped Regina’s boyfriend, which resulted in a child. Without reuniting with Baelfire as a driving force, what is the point of the show anymore? The show should have ended in season 3, with the resolution being a reunited family that included Baelfire as the final missing puzzle piece. That would have given the show a clear beginning (find Bae), middle (Bae is found) and end (Bae is integrated and welcomed into SB). In my opinion, a show that doesn’t have a clear start, climax and resolution is just bad. Basic story telling 101.
As I wrote in another thread, regarding season six, Eddy Kitsis said, “It’s time to tell new stories, broaden the show and move forward.” Seriously? This is precisely what the show doesn’t need to do and why I predict season 6 will continue to erode the quality of the show even further. It doesn’t need broadening; it needs condensing! All the loose threads need to be tied up and the show ended, ASAP. That right there is the reason why OUAT will never gain in quality or momentum again. The show runners don’t realize the narrative has gone on too long and doesn’t need expansion. If they want to create a spin off series like Neverland, then fine, but don’t drag out a show that already has gone on too long and has no narrative direction anymore.
Unlike GoT, which strongly improved in quality in season 6 (might be the best since season 1), OUAT will probably decline further in its sixth season. The show runners of GoT have a clear destination in mind and know how to get there. Also, they aren’t trying to stretch GoT out beyond season 8, which will be the last. They aren’t trying to expand the story anymore but are actually killing off characters right and left in an attempt to narrow the focus to just the main characters as the story reaches its climax and eventual resolution. GoT writers are actively condensing their story just as OUAT writers are actively expanding, and the difference in quality is very staggering. Introducing new characters (i.e. “shiny toy syndrome”) is not going to fix what is already broken. A&E haven’t learnt that lesson and probably won’t, which is why OUAT won’t improve.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
“It’s time to tell new stories, broaden the show and move forward.”
Seriously? This is precisely what the show doesn’t need to do and why I predict season 6 will continue to erode the quality of the show even further. It doesn’t need broadening; it needs condensing! All the loose threads need to be tied up and the show ended, ASAP. That right there is the reason why OUAT will never gain in quality or momentum again. The show runners don’t realize the narrative has gone on too long and doesn’t need expansion. If they want to create a spin off series like Neverland, then fine, but don’t drag out a show that already has gone on too long and has no narrative direction anymore.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
I do agree that it seems like a lot of the people seem to base all of their complaints about Neal’s age at the time of Henry’s conception on how the actors look at the time. That is just complete nonsense. Obviously neither Jennifer or MRJ’s look 17 or 18, but that has no relevance at all. I agree completely with everything you said about them being true loves, they still are, based on Emma’s reaction to her true dream where she spoke to Neal in the last season. She is, clearly, still in love with Neal and would have come to save him if she could have. Jennifer has always acted as if it is Neal who is her true love and not Hook and that is how it is portrayed in the show, regardless if the writers are now trying to have their cake and eat it to by pretending that Hook is possibly her new true love. Though that is not canon.
I agree that they still are, and always will be, each other’s true love. Why else would Emma declare she never stopped loving him and that she probably always would? Why else have Neal declare in 5×12 that he loved Emma and always would? Because they still love each other, deeply. Outside of Snow and Charming loving each other truly, Neal and Emma’s love is the simplest and most obvious case of romantic true love in the series. The swan pendant only confirms what is obvious to others who aren’t CS fans with myopic vision. Hence, Belle’s reasonable explanation for why the swan pendant crossed realms, the way Snowing’s ring and Rumbelle’s chipped cup did.
Also, I agree that Emma shoving Hook out of way in S5b really wasn’t a clear demonstration of Hook being Emma’s new true love. It was a way to appease CS fans while leaving it very open-ended and ambiguous whether it confirmed anything new. In my estimation, the only thing it shows for sure is that Emma has true love in her heart and thus was able to pass. Of all of the people in the world, Emma Swan is most likely to fit that specific qualification because she is born of her parents’ true love and is The Savior. Of course, her heart is going to be full of true love! I think Emma would have done the same for any of her family and close friends, including Regina or Ruby. Does that mean Emma is in love them? No. While I think Emma is in love with Hook, she didn’t seem so certain when she brought it up to Hook whether that love was real or not. I think when love is real, you don’t have to question it. You just know. Finally, if Hook really were Emma’s new true love, I think her splitting her heart to try and save him would have worked. But it clearly didn’t. She almost suffered a heart attack when Regina tried splitting it.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Neal & Emma – You – a very well made fan video:
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Also, there was another post about Neal’s age when Emma got pregnant. Someone using the wanted poster as a way to know his age. That is all just meaningless to me. There is no evidence that Neal is six years older or even three years older, if he lied about his age when he arrived in the real world. There is literally no information known about how old Neal is supposed to be at that time. All that we do know is that he had a job as a security guard and he stole some watches. He was probably at least 18 years old or saying he was 18 years old at the time. As far as i am concerned, there is no other credible evidence about Neal’s age, everything else is speculation, and therefore head canon. What we do know is, as i have said, that their relationship as shown on the actual show was one of equals. Neal did not corrupt Emma or bring her down into a life of crime. That did not happen. He actually does the opposite. He wants them to stop being criminals and make a home together. As far as i am concerned, Emma and Neal are the same age until proven otherwise in canon. Though, i think, in the end, it does not matter at all.
It’s fruitless to debate Neal’s wanted poster with his critics. We know for sure that Baelfire lied about his identity when he got to A Land Without Magic since “Neal Cassidy” isn’t even his real name. He certainly wasn’t born in New Jersey in 1977. Moreover, Neal wasn’t some lecherous guy who had a history of preying on young women. Emma and Neal were just street kids who were trying to survive and who found comfort in one another in a stolen car. That it turned into a sexual relationship really isn’t surprising, given that they really loved each other deeply and regarded each other as family. Emma and Neal’s relationship was innocent, mutual, and incredibly sweet and loving. They were each others’ first and true love, both physically and emotionally speaking. Neal wanted to settle down with Emma, as he told Belle that the swan necklace he gave Emma was supposed to represent their lives together.
What is important is that they truly loved each other (which they certainly did). Adolescence is really a modern concept, and prior to about 1930, it was the norm for Western young men and women get married before the age of about 20. Having spent his first 14 years in the EF, Baelfire’s frame of reference would have been entirely different from that of the average American teenage boy in the 21st century. Bae would have been drafted into the army at age 14 had his father not intervened, and if he’d survived, he might have been married by age 16 and a father by age 17. If Bae and Emma had met and fallen in love the Enchanted Forest, they probably would have gotten married and had kids as teenagers, as Cinderella and her prince did in 1×4.
As has been stated here, Adam and Eddy also cannot do math, since Emma said 1×4 that she was 18 when she had Henry, but supposedly he was already 10 when he showed up on her 28th birthday in 2011. (Apparently, they forgot it takes usually 9 months to have a baby). It also just occurred to me that Emma in 2011 wouldn’t have even known when her exact birthday was, since she thought she was abandoned by the side of a highway, and there was no way for her to trace her birth records. It’s not like she remembered being born in the Enchanted Forest, and Emma had no birth certificate. All she had was the blanket with her name embroidered on it.
I also think Neal’s critics are just going off of the real age of the actors and forget that Neal and Emma were supposed to be teenagers in the episode Tallahassee (J-Mo is very youthful, but she certainly doesn’t look 17, and neither does MRJ look that young anymore). Also, it’s very obvious by now that Hook fans just love to tear down Neal to prop up their beloved Hook, whom we know in show canon has a history of getting women drunk to sleep with him. I recall when many CSers used to argue that Neal offering to get Emma “a drink” meant that he gave her alcohol. Then 3×22 confirmed that the drink Neal got Emma was actually just coffee, a non-alcoholic beverage. So, tell me again, which guy smells most like a cod fish? Of course, it’s the womanizing, entitled pirate whose self-declared tactic was to get women so drunk they’d fail to resist his “charms” below deck.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
For crying out loud, that is what I want to see!
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
