[Slurpeez]

Really? They really need to wrap this show up if you ask me. The ratings don’t look good, and they need to be prepared in case next season is the last.

[Slurpeez]

Great interview! I also miss MRJ and the wonderful character he portrayed, so it’s nice to get his take on things. While I miss the character, I’m also glad that MRJ has gone onto bigger and better things. While I agree the show is poorer without him, at least the show doesn’t get to mess up his character. I can live with that. Also, I agree, he was  cleverly evasive about Hook-Emma thing….I cannot help but wonder if he thinks Neal would have been potentially more overtly supportive of Emma ending up with someone good, descent, and kind like Graham. Probably.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Slurpeez]

I suppose we shouldn’t be that surprised by Hook’s mistreatment of Henry (I’m not all that surprised, although I’m appalled to the continuation of this icky, semi-incestuous dynamic after Emma has learned Hook was the lover of Henry’s grandmother). Hook was never a good father figure to Baelfire either, what with his running off with Milha and also then vindictively handing Bae over to the Lost Boys–all because teenage Bae had the audacity to call Hook on helping Milha abandon him. If only Emma knew that hidden detail of Hook’s illustrious past with the father of her son. Remember Hook’s line to Emma: “we spent time together,” yet he never gave any juicy details. Would it make her think twice before making this pirate (who was creepily also Neal’s de facto step-dad) the step-father of Henry? *sigh*

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Slurpeez]

I really liked what Belle had to say in the most recent sneak peek for 5×17. She basically said all the things I’ve been wanting her to say. She’s not just going to let Rumple get away with using whatever dark tactics he feels he must in the heat of the moment. I love that she rejected his point that darkness is just a matter of perspective. She isn’t the moral relativist that Rumple is. She basically said they were going to do it her way (i.e. a way which involves using the darkness only for good).

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Slurpeez]

Hook just comes across as being really ungrateful for what the others have done for him. You’d think the writers would try to write him in a way where he’s at least likeable but apparently not.

^^ THAT

You go, girl.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Slurpeez]

I’m not Hook’s biggest fan, but I think it was simply a sarcastic remark which was meant to be a stand-in for the audience’s reaction to Henry’s poor writing (which is a stand-in for the writers’). Henry’s line of “I’m doing my best!” is a very meta statement for the writers, who identify with Henry. They feel that we (like Hook) are frustrated by it and criticizing their efforts. Having said that, Hook’s tone came across as ungrateful, cruel and unsympathetic to the teenage son of the woman he professes to love. While I get that this is the writers’ meta way of showing how cruel the audience’s criticism of their writing comes across, it pretty much just underscored how poor a father figure Hook really is to Henry.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Slurpeez]

Does Hook have the dark one dagger?

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Slurpeez]

I think this conversation boils down to one simple question. Does Belle love Rumple in spite of his being the dark one or because of his being the dark one (as Rumple claims)? I happen to think Belle loves the real human Rumple in spite of his curse (rather than as a result of it). While it’s true that she fell in love with him while he was still the dark one, I think she fell in love with the real Rumple — the one that Neal said was once a good man.

Now Rumple (or rather, the writers) are retroactively trying to convince Belle (and the audience) otherwise. However, members of the audience like me (and I hope Belle) are able to tell the difference. While I certainly see a case to be made that spinner Rumple really jumped at the chance to get the power of the dagger, he didn’t want power for power’s sake. That was the entire point of “Desperate Souls”; he wanted the power precisely because he wanted to use the power to save Baelfire. The trouble is, once Rumple got a taste of that power, it started to consume him. This is an illustration of the old adage “absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

So, again I ask, what makes Rumple think that this time will be any different? How will he actually stop his heart from turning coal black this time? How does having the combined power of all previous dark ones make him any less likely to succumb to darkness? Wouldn’t it amplify the darkness and thus increase the likelihood of him giving into again, this time even faster than before? We’ve seen him send Milha into oblivion (even if it was at Hades’ behest, it was still before Rumple knew that Hades knew about his second child). I don’t see how we, the audience, are expected to just forget all the prior canon of seasons 1-3. Silly me for thinking this show would actually be logical or consistent, or that it would expect its viewers not to have amnesia. *heads desk again*

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Slurpeez]

I don’t think Rumple was wrong in his observations, at least not completely. Belle DOES like the darkness, and from his perspective, she dumped him again as soon as he was exactly what she SAID she wanted…and took him back when he had the darkness again (even if she didn’t know that). He also knows how the Curse affected people’s personalities/alter egos, having experienced it himself; I think that Lacey represents a part of Belle that a) was always present, if suppressed and b) is almost certainly still in her somewhere, as We Are Both was supposed to suggest. She’s said herself that she loves all of him, including the darkness. But she’s not wrong to want him to stop murdering the peasants, either; I think she’d be happy with his having the power to do so if a) he wasn’t choosing it over her and b) he wasn’t murdering the peasants. Those were the two breaking points for her in 4A.

I just don’t buy Rumple’s lie that she loves the darkness. Belle never said she loved the darkness. What she really said was, “I love him… All of him, even… Even the parts that belong to the darkness.” I think Belle is clearly able to distinguish between the parts of Rumple that are consumed by the darkness and the actual darkness itself. Right before she sent him over the town line, she said, “No! It’s too late. Once I… I saw the man behind the beast. Now there’s only a beast.” The clear implication is that Belle doesn’t like the beast (i.e. the darkness). She really loves the man. Rumple is trying to convince her otherwise, but she doesn’t delight in his cursed state. She has wanted to free him of his curse from the very start! All she wanted from the start was for him to choose her over the power.

Rumple: Falling in love with the man behind the beast… isn’t really what happened to you. You fell in love with me… because there was a man and a beast. Neither exists without the other.
Belle: No. No. I-I can’t condone you being like this. Not again.
Rumple: Yes, you can. You just have to choose to. And if you do… we can have what’s important… Family, happiness. It’s your choice.

That is a clear manipulation of the truth. Belle rejects him being in his current state. She rejects that she fell in love with the beast. That isn’t what happened according to her, even though Rumple clearly is trying to convince her otherwise. That is an attempt to control her or convince her of something that never happened (i.e. gas lighting — a tactic Regina tried on Henry). Red flag number 1. Moreover, he is setting up an ultimatum; he is saying she can have every thing her heart desires (a family with the man she loves) but only if she accepts his giving into his addiction. That is another attempt to control her — red flag number 2.

Even if part of Lacey still lurks inside of Belle, that is her cursed alter-ego (i.e. not her true self). Despite meek and scared Mary Margaret being the cursed persona of Snow, she rejected that alter ego not long ago, declaring she only wanted to be Snow White. I really don’t think the real Belle loves the darkness; in fact, she said she couldn’t condone it. While she might love Rumple the man with all of her heart, she has repeatedly said he must choose between her and power. He chose the dagger. Don’t actions speak louder the words? Hopefully, Rumple will prove her doubts wrong this time, and actually learn to reject the power for himself. However, he’s a true addict. I don’t see how he can truly change for the better without giving up the magic entirely. He may never do so though, since it’s rather telling that even when he was “clean” and mortal, he still freely chose to become the dark one again.

But if I were her, and Rumple said he loved the power and myself equally, but then only used the power for protection and not for evil (plus I’m carrying his child), I would probably accept that and at least see if it could work.

I don’t doubt that there will be some compromise that Rumbelle arrives at where she accepts him bak on the grounds that he’ll only use the magic for good, but I don’t see how she can trust him again after everything he’s done. After all, he just used his dark magic to send Milha into the River of Lost Souls. While Belle doesn’t know that yet, I’m pretty sure that is going to come out at some point. How will she be able to believe him when he says he’s changed for the better after she finds out about re-killing Milha? Moreover, as Rumple’s second wife, doesn’t it concern her even a tiny bit that Rumple is still capable of doing that to his first wife, even after all that time? That is a huge red flag! What woman would really want to commit herself to someone who just proved he doesn’t really only use his power for good?

@Slurpeez, I agree with much of what you’re saying, but I think there’s an issue with the ultimatum logic. I think they are both engaged in manipulating each other, through different means. Ultimatums of any variety, on the part of either party, are not a good basis for a healthy (scratch that, even just a merely functional) relationship. Combine that with the yo-yo effect of on again-off again, and I actually think that what Belle and Rumple are doing is a variant of co-dependency. Either way, they are both participating and perpetuating an unhealthy dynamic, where they are both attempting to control the other, albeit through very different means (Rumple mostly through deceit and trying to cover his butt, and Belle by threatening to end the relationship, which, one might argue, is additionally effective against Rumple since at the core of his personality is an abandonment complex, so she’s partially playing off on that).

I take an ultimatum to be “a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations.” However, I take your point about the co-dependency, since if she takes him back while he’s still the dark one, it could be said she’s only enabling his addiction to magic. The relationship is very dysfunctional and unhealthy, for both parties. Yet, Belle has also set up an ultimatum before. From 4×12: “You’d never give up power for me, Rumple. You never have. You never will.” I take this to be a sort of declaration: choose her over power. When Belle thought he was free of the power (and thus, in her mind, the addiction), she was hesitant, but still willing to take him back and re-consumate the marriage. Then he went and chose to become the dark one again, and she said she couldn’t condone it. However, if she does end up taking him back again while he refuses to give up magic, then an argument could be made that they’re very co-dependent.

Either way, threatening to leave unless your partner changes — or, the reverse move, which is “take me as I am, or scoot” are both variants of the same thing, a kind of “my way or the highway” refusal to meet half way. Belle’s “Hero or Bust” is, in some senses, the mirror image of Rumple’s “Beast or Bust”.

Yeah. It’s the sharp dichotomy of either A or B that makes it sound like they’re setting ultimatums for each other.  They’re certainly trying to control each other by setting up a set of conditions that must be met, otherwise affection and commitment will be withheld.

Can I just point out how profoundly bizarre the idea that you either love a person OR you love a particular state of being (which is what addiction is, in some sense) is? I think this is a logical fallacy. Addiction can certainly be inimical to a relationship and unhealthy for both the addict and his loved ones, but conflating these two very different affective states — love for a person, and the psychological and physical dependency on the thing one is addicted to — gets us into an ethical and intellectual dead-end.

I think it’s certainly possible to love someone who is addicted, especially if one sees the addiction as a brain disease, which it is. It’s an imbalance of neurotransmitters. I think when Rumple says he loves the dagger, what he really means is that he loves the feeling (or the “high” if you will) that comes with being powerful — especially after he spent a lifetime feeling weak.  If we’re going with the metaphor that dark magic is like an actual addiction to alcohol, then Rumple has a disease. In that light, I think it’s possible for a spouse to stand by a partner with an addiction, provided the afflicted person undergoes treatment to get well. However, if left untreated, addiction can pose a real harm to the spouse and the children. In such a case, then I don’t think the spouse is morally obligated to stay; in fact, if the addict just denies there is even an issue or refuses to get help, then I think Belle’s first priority ought to be to herself and her baby, rather than to Rumple. In fact, by staying with him, she might just be enabling his addiction to continue unchecked; that is a recipe for disaster.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Slurpeez]

The show seems to be suggesting that it’s okay, and even good, for Rumple to love his drug and his wife the same amount and that Belle needs to face facts, accept him as he is, or leave him forever. Yes, it’s a way for the show to have its cake and eat it too–keep Rumple the “interesting” dark one and have Rumbelle get their HEA but I find it to be disquieting that the show is encouraging us to root for Belle to accept her lying, drug addicted husband as is and not root for evolution of character and redemption.

I agree. Here is my big issue with this development. Belle gave Rumple an ultimatum before: her or the dagger. Belle said it best, “your true love is power.” Rumple basically echoed this sentiment when he said he “loves the dagger” (or rather, what it represents, I gather). By refusing to give up the dagger (despite being free of it) he rejected her ultimatum. On top of that, he countered with his own ultimatum: take it or leave it. I don’t see how Belle can honestly live with that without sacrificing her self-dignity. Rumple is basically manipulating her. He knows that Belle deeply desires a happy family life with him, but he’ll only give it to her if she allows him to remain a happy addict. Moreover, Rumple is basically telling her that she fell in love with the beast, but I hope she doesn’t buy it, because it’s totally false. Trying to convince her how she feels or felt is red flag. Additionally, that retcon just flies in the face of what we saw in “Skin Deep”.The entire point was Belle saw through the mask, and fell in love with the man behind the beast. Belle spoke truly when she said his power did not mean more to him than she did. At least, that is how it was originally portrayed.

Rumple is still declaring that they can have it all, power and love, but that just goes to show he has learned nothing since 4×11, when Belle sent him over the town line. If Belle takes him back under the condition he has just set out, then she has to live with the knowledge that maybe she was wrong in 1×12. Maybe his power does mean more to him than she does. He just said it means at least as much to him as she does (probably more, according to the gauntlet in 4×11). Does she really want to live with the knowledge that her husband’s addition to power is his true love and that her kiss will likely always be unable to free him? Now that she is carrying his child, she might end up settling the way Milha thought she had to for the sake of Bae. Then again, Belle might not, since she might feel Rumple’s addiction wouldn’t be a good influence on an impressionable young child. I suppose this ought to be viewed as a cautionary tale that love isn’t always enough and that it doesn’t always help someone to become free of addiction/love of power/whatever issue.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

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