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"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICOk, it’s way too late for me to be writing this but it’s been one of those days… Sorry if I’m incoherent.
For me, OUAT’s core value now is entertainment, but not in the elevated television-as-art sort of way, but rather in a cheap, tawdry, melodramatic, cheesy, please-tweet-about-me sort of way.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand that generating viewership, and hence money is the bottom line for any show. But it’s the way A&E have decided to go about it, which seems to essentially select what they think is the lowest common denominator, and aiming a couple of notches below THAT that I find particularly infuriating. I mean, by all accounts, OUAT began with a fairly smart, creative audience for a mainstream TV show. Instead of raising the bar — or at least, keeping it where it was — they have systematically, and almost patronizingly, lowered it.
I think they dictated that certain things had to happen (CS) and that A and E were backed into a corner and instead of fighting their way out, or trying to find a solution that would appease their Mousey overlords but not totally destroy their show (CS is endgame, but Neal gets to live and be a son/father) they went for the kill (literally) and did a reset (3A finale) and then started afresh meaning that the vestiges of the show-that-was had to be wiped away
(Ok, just a quick note, what comes later ie your analysis of what is shown vs what is told — SQ vs CS — is totally brilliant, so I’m going to take on the first part of the argument instead). So on this point — that A&E were essentially backed into a corner by the corporate overlord. I think that’s probably largely right – the execs say jump, and you have to ask how high. But they didn’t HAVE to kill Neal, and hence change the entire story. They didn’t even have to retain MRJ, they could have written him a life off-screen. There’s a whole conversation on this thread dealing exactly with this point, so I think we’re all pointing out the same problem — whether it’s the way in which talking about Neal has become taboo (per @Slurpeez ‘ point), both for the show and for the fanbase, or whether it’s the constant ship baiting, it’s like A&E have given up on the very idea that OUAT could ever have any sort of metanarrative. And I’m sorry, but plot doesn’t count, especially when so much of it is recycled tropes. I just don’t get it — they were able to secure many amazing actors, regularly work with fairly prominent writers, and yet the show seems to be getting more simplistic with every season. My point is that I don’t understand what the payoff is. My only explanation is that A&E were told that they had to broaden OUAT’s audience, and to do so they decided to turn it into a soap.
Morning!!!!
They didn’t even have to retain MRJ, they could have written him a life off-screen.
Yeah, especially bc they have all this curses and lost of memories, they could like have Neal going to pick his things, then have an acident and lose his memories, that would explain, why not going back to SB after and start a life somewhere.
Or they could do like the people from The vampire diaries did to Elena, when Nina left the show, they did a mix of Philip soul storyline with harry potter and voldemort storyline, that was: Bonnie was dead and in order to save her, to bring her back, Elena did a spell in which she linked her life to bonnie, and therefore falling into a deep dead spleep( that could not be broke with TLK by the way), so in doing so the spell says that while Bonnie lives Elena cant wake up( and bonnie cant kill herself, she had to die on natural causes or be killed), so elena is like dead. So they put her on a coffin on a cript and will look for a way to save her without bonnie dying, that was the solution TVD did in order to let go Nina and on the last season of the show in the last episodes they may bring her back to be saved. See this is not that dificult to do on ouat, putting like while rumple is alive neal cant live, this is possible to have been used, especially with the amount of curses, they even had excuse to simply not remenber to save neal, or not mention him, bc there was nothing that at the moment they could not do.
On a side note about MRJ tweet to Sean, he still didnt answer MRJ even tho he faved and tweeted several things, if this is not a proof of a no MRJ talk rule in OUAT cast, i dont know what it is, especially bc Sean appears to be such “Friend” of MRJ and especially if we take into account what MRJ told sean, in a normal no speaking with or about mRJ rule, Sean would answer this like right away, especially bc he was tweeting to fans and people and fav stuff all day.
https://twitter.com/MRaymondJames/status/655091698473828353
Are moments like this i get more angry with the cast, crew, and everyone involved in the show. And even with MRJ, bc he must learn by now, that he should simply let ouat people go, and start by unfollowing them all, still not sure what interest he has in them, i mean he unfollowed ouat twiter account, means no interrest in ouat at all, so cut the ties and move on and start following more people from his new show.Sorry the rant, like i said the show doesnt bother me, are the people involve on it that upsets me.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
they didn’t just lower the bar they dropped it so low that its buried at the center of the earth while the jumping sharks are doing a jig over its resting place. Let’s take a moment of silence for Ouat season 1-2.
As for the no interaction with MRJ clause, maybe its abc, maybe its the writers, maybes its the fandom, or all of the above. One possibility is they think that if the cast interacts publicly with MRJ then fans will take this as sign that perhaps Neal will be back on the show. Thus avoid having to many direct connected to Neal which may includes very limited interactions with MRJ? I find it difficult to believe that its because they are afraid of the fandom being upset if they interact more often. The fans get excited when the Cast interacts with MRJ. Well in at least in regards to Colin, Sean, and RC. Not sure how it would be with Jmo or Lana?
Its odd to me. This MRJ Sean psa tweet is just one example of many. A character from Grimm recently died and she and the cast acts as if she was still part of the show. Of course she is the love of the main leading actor and not to mention they are pretty much a family where they are honorary aunts and uncles of each others kids and pets. Maybe Grimm is not a good comparison example. LOL
Overall I’m not mad. I am disappointed. With the show and with myself for putting this show on too high of a pedestal, for falling for the illusions of this show, that it was about hope, second chances, and family. For thinking it was spectacular work of art and as Nevermore put it now its just simply another soap opera. I think what gets me most is I viewed this show as a symbol of hope in my life. And When Neal died, he died during a low point in my personal life. I had turn to this show as medium of inspiration as things do get better, good things do happen to good people. And Ouat told blatantly told me nope, not unless you are one of the “pretty popular pitiless people,” or sounding bored for the {pretty popular pitiless people.{ And It wasn’t just me that had that same reaction others were devastated as the fantasy was shattered. Example the little girl and mother who were heartbroken at the death of Neal because she had recently lost her military father overseas and were using Ouat as comforting and inspirational outlet. So yeah overall I am disappointed.
Alas, Three Things Ouat gave me, My heartsong (Rainbow), My great friends (Ranchers and MORE), MICHAELRAYMONDJAMES, and a great season 1. Wait that is four.
Anyway I may be disappointed with Ouat, but Life goes on, there are more solid things to find hope and joy in internally and externally, There is not just good tv out there, there is GREAT tv out there, there can be happy fanning and even good sad fanning (Looking at you Ranchers), and Ouat is not the universal truth for what is Hope, true Love, happy endings, second chances, and family.
Okay this rambling went way to long and its probably because I lack coffee.
Since you read this, here is some MRJ being cute!
Between takes on set today. @NBCSilence pic.twitter.com/4iUNq2fnz7
— David Hudgins (@DavidHudgins3) September 29, 2015
"I will be kind but I will speak my mind."
But they didn’t HAVE to kill Neal, and hence change the entire story.
You’re right; they didn’t. As many of us have said before, it’s a long jump from “make CS happen” to “kill Neal.”
I just don’t get it — they were able to secure many amazing actors, regularly work with fairly prominent writers, and yet the show seems to be getting more simplistic with every season. My point is that I don’t understand what the payoff is. My only explanation is that A&E were told that they had to broaden OUAT’s audience, and to do so they decided to turn it into a soap.
I have no idea what the payoff is either unless it’s literally a payoff (ie: they got to keep their jobs/show). I mean, you read their interviews and they still stand 100% behind their decisions. A and E call killing Neal bold storytelling and the day after 315 Adam tweets a picture of a Black Guard holding a knife to his throat and saying “so I guess some people are upset with me after last night’s episode.” So if it is an executive bullying situation–which is still where I lean–it wasn’t one A and E tried to fend off.
And there are hints of the original story still embedded within the current show. Emma going dark? I continue to believe that was always planned (insert RG’s long winded heroes journey speech here). But like @dontstopbelieving would say if she were here, OUAT is like a bridge and in killing Neal, the writers removed all the support beams and replaced them with Styrofoam (ie: the pirate) and thus it can no longer hold up to scrutiny. It’s especially painful this season because you tell that it was supposed to be Neal doing a lot of what Hook is doing (though with more grace and love). It would have made for really beautiful, logical, and circular storytelling.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"It’s especially painful this season because you tell that it was supposed to be Neal doing a lot of what Hook is doing (though with more grace and love). It would have made for really beautiful, logical, and circular storytelling.
This. Exactly this. Of course AE wouldn’t admit to it, but I absolutely agree with you that this season would have made SO much more sense if Neal were in Hook’s place. I agree that Dark!Swan was probably endgame early. But insofar as we’re asked to be invested into the drama of CS in relation to Dark!Swan — the irony is that the darling ship isn’t even well written. I don’t think Neal fans are only grousing over the fact that A&E killed off the character at the heart of OUAT. It’s that what came to replace it makes Baywatch look like Tolstoy.
It’s not just that I don’t particularly like Hook — I don’t, but whatever. It’s that, structurally, Hook is completely peripheral or ancillary to pretty much anyone’s story — no matter how much background info they shove down the audience’s throat, the stakes just aren’t there for me. Of course, there are plenty of people in the fanbase that adore him, and that’s fine.
A and E call killing Neal bold storytelling
Like that?
But insofar as we’re asked to be invested into the drama of CS in relation to Dark!Swan — the irony is that the darling ship isn’t even well written.
It’s really not, and it’s getting worse each season. This year is particularly odious with Hook yelling that the “good” Emma isn’t even “here” anymore (while conversely Regina still sees the good, Henry still sees the good, Snowing believe in their daughter, and in a past story Belle always saw the man behind the beast and always believed that when you find someone you love you don’t give up on them).
I wish I could be as optimistic as Slurpeez is about this and that the writers are trying to drive home some sort of truth about CS–how it’s not True Love, how it’s barely even love because Hook can’t love all of Emma or something–but I just don’t have any faith in the writers anymore. I think CS is absolutely endgame, I think there will be some changes in fortune where suddenly Hook’s love begins to work on Emma for *magical handwave* reasons that will never be fully explained or explored because the writers are focused on the resolution (Dark!Swan saved probably by TLK or something CS-y) instead of the journey to resolution.
I think it’s far more likely that no one on the staff is talking to each other/reading each others work/watching their own show. There is such a disconnect from episode to episode; for no one to say “we probably shouldn’t have Regina be able to see the good in Dark!Swan but then have the man we’re romantically linking Emma to not be able to see the good and instead act like a petulant man-child”—-yeah, problematic.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"And there are hints of the original story still embedded within the current show. Emma going dark? I continue to believe that was always planned (
Maybe or maybe not, bc they are not known for keeping with their plans and A&E said at NYCC that they thought about doing Dark one Emma only during the S3 finale, so maybe they are lying, i mean they also seem to have a huge story for Zelena that was supposed to be big, and in the end teh woman almost doesnt appear and when she does, is to have low screen time and be nothing else than Robin baby mother. I mean that is also the reason why they say on the hot seat interviews “cant say”, bc they dont know now, but they may end bring that thing in the future, i mean like they saying cant say about hook father being alive in the present, like what???, i mean the Rumple being alive is explain with DO, Bae and Hook with Neverland, let me guess they show some magical plot thing to make Hook father the same age that hook and to make amends with hook in present time? is possible, but really this is not good writing, and means that sooner or later people cant say this is planed or that is good writing, bc is not, they change things from episode to episode, so i dont see Emma becoming the dark one a always planned, i would see more Neal becoming the dark one, the thing he hated the most, than emma being the dark one,( and i know the long journey from Heroes , but hey, neal was also a hero, and had a personality that was a lot like pre dark one rumple, so he could also fit there) but hey i say bring the lack of continuity and most of all bring low ratings, and before people that say im only are only saying that bc neal is gone, i must say, in on the side dont bring neal, bc MRJ is to good of actor to be on this show, he got luck he was written off, bc by the end of this show, i dont see many of the cast menbers, besides bobby to get great jobs, i may see them do indie , low budget movies, but mostly live from the money they get in convections, they will be to attach to the show, to be able to move on to some important jobs, a bit like, some star wars actors( and im not comparing Star wars to Ouat), im saying people will only see those characters and nothing else, so the cast may not be able to move on for real from those characters.
Sidenot, but i must say that there is something that amazes me, is the fact that fans still believe on what Adam and Eddie say on interviews, and how they think them saying cant say, means yes, they know the fans expect that, so they say that already to cheat fans and then they will say, we never said yes, u are the ones that thought we did, really OUAT is a business, they do what they do to get ratings, that translate into money, is like the cast on interviews or in the interraction with themselves, they are actors, they lie for a living, they make believe, i honest think they they are not that close of each other and after the show ends, they will never speak with each other unless they meet at some party, like all of us already said, is all about Money and Ratings, i mean Bobby said he gets great money from oUAT, while of the beginning he said that he loved Rumple, but now he does it for the money and lets not forget that he said that he doesnr understand Rumple anymore or prepare the character bc A&E change their ideas from episode to episode, so he simply does what they tell him to do, so in the end ouat is a business, is about what sell, not about the story, or characters, as long the online target audience is happy( CS fans)they wont question other characters and GA as soon as they are bored will change to other things.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
Maybe or maybe not, bc they are not known for keeping with their plans and A&E said at NYCC that they thought about doing Dark one Emma only during the S3 finale,
Well I think that means they finally figured out *how* to make Emma go dark, not that they thought about her going dark in general.
I know I say it a lot but one more time for the cheap seats in the back: monomyth.
I think they always wanted to have Emma be tempted by the dark/go dark/go on her introspective katabasis in order to become a fully realized Savior but the question was how to get there logically. (whether or not it was logical I won’t go into…but for A and E it was).
But, not for the time in the past years, I wish I was a fly on the wall in the writers room.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"But at least there is fan fiction, S5 re write with Neal and no Hook
http://rufeepeach.tumblr.com/tagged/season%205%20nealfire%20rewrite/chrono
and i praise this fans, that are doing this, i mean they dont gain anything with this, they in fact lose free time, yet they still do it, and better than professional writers that win millions per year to write a show that can be compared to the worst type of fan fiction.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
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