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I still think the show can be fixed if they go back to focusing on the core motivations and personalities of the main characters that made the show so great in season 1. Did they lose a lot of potential dialogue and potential scenes getting rid of Neal, yup no doubt. But I still have hope (Oh geez I sound like Snow White here), that they can bring back some of the integrity of the show. Honestly, I think they bit off a little more than they could chew in this last half season. They tried to tackle the origin of the dark one and they failed. It was a lot of show mythology and they screwed up.
Maybe this next half season will make us like Hook more? Maybe Hades will be great. We already know he has some sort of history with Zelena and she was one of the better things from season 5A. And when A&E say things like the UW is just the start for savior Emma and that it’s going to open up a whole bunch of stuff, or whatever they said, that intrigues me because that’s a theme of season 1 and other than a few mentions of Emma still technically being the savior, that sort of hasn’t gotten lost over the years. Plus Gaston, and more Belle and Ruby and Mulan. I’m excited that they at least have the potential to turn this season around. I know, a ton of optimism after the crap show that was season 5A (and honestly I was fine with 5A until the final two episodes), but there is still a ton of story they can tell with Robin and Regina’s baby, more Henry, the LGBT relationship, Rumple’s motivations, and obviously all the returning characters and more Cruella, who we all agree, was outstanding!
[adrotate group="5"]Not to keep bringing this up, but it’s comments like these that sparked my question regarding why you still watch the show if you feel the show is beyond fixable.
Because i want to watch the show. That is really the reason. I like talking critically about the show. I still like Emma and when she interacts with Snow, Regina, Charming, Henry and Rumpel. I don’t have to think the show is good to watch it. I don’t think the show can be fixed. There are three halves of the show that are just bad, where the plot and characters are incomprehensible. That cannot be fixed. That happened. The can only make the show better at this point. The show has writing issues. It isn’t what happens, but how badly it is written. The characters need to be consistent and they need to grow and they need to react to these things that happen to them and they don’t.
It is like the end of Season 3 when Rumpel found out Neal died in the future. Old crazy imp Rumpel would never have taken that memory potion. Ever. If Rumpel is able to save Neal from the Underworld, he would, even if Neal didn’t want to be saved. Emma and Henry would want to save him as well. The writing has to exist in the reality of what would these people do, not what do the writers want them to do, but what would the character they have created and now exist with a personality, with a way of reacting, with a reason for being, react when things happen to them. They need to react within the confines that the writers themselves have created for their own characters. The writers have to care about that. They don’t.
The characters need to be consistent and they need to grow and they need to react to these things that happen to them and they don’t.
Agreed. I think the major reason the characters are inconsistent is because they try to cram too much plot into the story and then they need the characters to behave accordingly in order to move the plot along, instead of how they should react and behave to something, which is certainly a form of bad writing. But if they slow it down, and just focus on how the characters should behave instead of what they have been doing, I think they can fix it. If Snowing starts exhibiting more intelligence than that of a rock, and moving forward, doesn’t just leave their son behind because A&E needed them in the underworld for plot reasons, couldn’t that help fix them? Some characters have been assassinated for sure, but if they bring them back to how they should be acting, yes you could see that as inconsistent again, but if they stick with it, it would be better for the show. If you murder a character with inconsistent dialogue and behavior, can’t you bring them back to life with better writing and less plot driven motivations?
The characters need to be consistent and they need to grow and they need to react to these things that happen to them and they don’t.
Agreed. I think the major reason the characters are inconsistent is because they try to cram too much plot into the story and then they need the characters to behave accordingly in order to move the plot along, instead of how they should react and behave to something, which is certainly a form of bad writing. But if they slow it down, and just focus on how the characters should behave instead of what they have been doing, I think they can fix it. If Snowing starts exhibiting more intelligence than that of a rock, and moving forward, doesn’t just leave their son behind because A&E needed them in the underworld for plot reasons, couldn’t that help fix them? Some characters have been assassinated for sure, but if they bring them back to how they should be acting, yes you could see that as inconsistent again, but if they stick with it, it would be better for the show. If you murder a character with inconsistent dialogue and behavior, can’t you bring them back to life with better writing and less plot driven motivations?
Except that they don’t want to. The two halfs format, which is partly to be blamed, have been criticized a lot, but they kept saying that that’s what works best for them (because that way they can just write 11 episodes and just forget about them and do something new and unrelated to the overall narrative of the show. In other words, that allows them to be lazy). As long as they keep the two halfs format, they will never allow characters to be properly fleshed out, everything will be contrived just to finish it fast and move on to the next shiny toy.
"All your questions are pointless"
Except that they don’t want to. The two halfs format, which is partly to be blamed, have been criticized a lot, but they kept saying that that’s what works best for them (because that way they can just write 11 episodes and just forget about them and do something new and unrelated to the overall narrative of the show. In other words, that allows them to be lazy). As long as they keep the two halfs format, they will never allow characters to be properly fleshed out, everything will be contrived just to finish it fast and move on to the next shiny toy.
See I feel like the Pan arc, which was the first time they split the season into two halves, actually didn’t assassinate the characters. I think that arc proved it could work. The whole reason they decided to do it this way was because season 2 ran into a huge problem with big “filler” episodes and unnecessary material. There are parts of season 2 that dragged. They felt they could tell a more concise story splitting it up and I can’t blame them for wanting to try something new. Unfortunately, a consequence of doing that, has been focusing a little TOO much on plot and not taking a breath and giving us much needed character development scenes and more consistent decision making. But in no way do I think they started splitting the seasons so they could deliberately forget about characters and do something unrelated to the narrative. I think they saw the flaws with season 2, and thought this would help concise the story a bit, and many fans, myself included, thought this was a good idea at the time. They just unfortunately have lost their way since the Pan Arc when I felt the half season worked well.
Except that they don’t want to. The two halfs format, which is partly to be blamed, have been criticized a lot, but they kept saying that that’s what works best for them (because that way they can just write 11 episodes and just forget about them and do something new and unrelated to the overall narrative of the show. In other words, that allows them to be lazy). As long as they keep the two halfs format, they will never allow characters to be properly fleshed out, everything will be contrived just to finish it fast and move on to the next shiny toy.
See I feel like the Pan arc, which was the first time they split the season into two halves, actually didn’t assassinate the characters. I think that arc proved it could work. The whole reason they decided to do it this way was because season 2 ran into a huge problem with big “filler” episodes and unnecessary material. There are parts of season 2 that dragged. They felt they could tell a more concise story splitting it up and I can’t blame them for wanting to try something new. Unfortunately, a consequence of doing that, has been focusing a little TOO much on plot and not taking a breath and giving us much needed character development scenes and more consistent decision making. But in no way do I think they started splitting the seasons so they could deliberately forget about characters and do something unrelated to the narrative. I think they saw the flaws with season 2, and thought this would help concise the story a bit, and many fans, myself included, thought this was a good idea at the time. They just unfortunately have lost their way since the Pan Arc when I felt the half season worked well.
Pan’s arc wasn’t really 11 episodes (more like 17) and it was a direct continuation from s2. Seasons 1-3A told a good flowing story, things that happened in S1 affected S2 and S3A, and things that happened in S2 affected S3A. While they told three different stories (101-122, 201-216, 217-311), everything was a part of one larger story. When I’m talking about the 11-episodes, I’m talking about 3B-5A, because what we got is:
9 episodes – Zelena. Then suddenly stops, I think 320 is one of the most ridiculous episodes of the series.
2 episodes – CS filler movie, while butchering Snowing’s backstory.
11 episodes – Frozen cash grab.
6 episodes – Queens of Dumbass.
6 episodes – The Author.
11 episodes – Dark Swan.
There were fillers even after the new format:
3B: 314, 317, 321-322.
4A: 402, 404, 405, 412.
4B: 415, 416, 419.
5A: 502, 503, 504, 506, 509.
"All your questions are pointless"
No I understand there were still filler episodes after season 2. Agree to disagree on whether the Pan arc was part of the season halves splitting up style. As far as the author story line though, the author is someone that has been referenced since season 1. The story book was a huge part of the show. So if you’re gonna say that season 3A didn’t count as a half season, then you have to say that about season 4B too. I think you can find little things from past seasons in all of the half season arcs.
Pan’s arc wasn’t really 11 episodes (more like 17) and it was a direct continuation from s2. Seasons 1-3A told a good flowing story, things that happened in S1 affected S2 and S3A, and things that happened in S2 affected S3A. While they told three different stories (101-122, 201-216, 217-311), everything was a part of one larger story. When I’m talking about the 11-episodes, I’m talking about 3B-5A, because what we got is:
9 episodes – Zelena. Then suddenly stops, I think 320 is one of the most ridiculous episodes of the series.
2 episodes – CS filler movie, while butchering Snowing’s backstory.
11 episodes – Frozen cash grab.
6 episodes – Queens of Dumbass.
6 episodes – The Author.
11 episodes – Dark Swan.
There were fillers even after the new format:
3B: 314, 317, 321-322.
4A: 402, 404, 405, 412.
4B: 415, 416, 419.
5A: 502, 503, 504, 506, 509.
Frozen was 10 episodes.
I’m actually wondering if the split may have been caused by the original plan for Wonderland.
Pan’s arc wasn’t really 11 episodes (more like 17) and it was a direct continuation from s2. Seasons 1-3A told a good flowing story, things that happened in S1 affected S2 and S3A, and things that happened in S2 affected S3A. While they told three different stories (101-122, 201-216, 217-311), everything was a part of one larger story. When I’m talking about the 11-episodes, I’m talking about 3B-5A, because what we got is: 9 episodes – Zelena. Then suddenly stops, I think 320 is one of the most ridiculous episodes of the series. 2 episodes – CS filler movie, while butchering Snowing’s backstory. 11 episodes – Frozen cash grab. 6 episodes – Queens of Dumbass. 6 episodes – The Author. 11 episodes – Dark Swan. There were fillers even after the new format: 3B: 314, 317, 321-322. 4A: 402, 404, 405, 412. 4B: 415, 416, 419. 5A: 502, 503, 504, 506, 509.
Frozen was 10 episodes. I’m actually wondering if the split may have been caused by the original plan for Wonderland.
I count Smash the Mirror as two episodes. I don’t care what A&E said, TV has standards.
The original split was because of something related to abc, which I don’t remember, but OUAT wasn’t the only series that split the season that year. The following year, abc let them keep it that way.
"All your questions are pointless"
Is there any chance that if next season is the last, that they end up not splitting it up and instead give us one flowing arc to finish the show? As I’ve mentioned several times now, they have said they know how they want to end it, and if I was a writer for a show, and I knew it was the last season regardless, I’d at least want to tell it my way with one last full season. But obviously it’s abc’s call. If the half season thing is contributing to the poor writing, it would help if the final season wasn’t like that.
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