The Captain Swan thread!

[Bo-Peeps]

obisgirl: What I don’t understand with these Neal fans, is if they’re still miserable watching the show- why are they still watching?

surayya:The fact remains that this show is Adam and Eddy’s brainchild and they can do whatever they want. If you’re not happy, feel free to tune out but don’t bring the rest of the fandom down with your nonsense. Tweeting “stoponceuponahook” to Adam was immature and an example of the very definition of “fan pandering”.  A lot of fans are happy with the way the story stands.

Adam and Eddy are only guilty of *pandering* when it isn’t about Neal and his fans’ demands doncha know (wink). The fans who *go there* see themselves as immune to accountability for all the accusations they throw around. (accusations with no or seriously lame support)

Sadly, obisgirl, there is no understanding necessary. They are miserable because they want to be miserable. They did not get their True Love way, and instead of just shaking their heads, rightfully snorting for a few days and finding something else to watch or follow that won’t threaten their tender sensibilities, they relentlessly spew meanness. Because if they do not get what they want, by Gawd no one shall be spared their undignified wrath! As if they are the only fans whose opinions are valid.

None of us have that power. We either accept it, continue the journey, or whine like a putz and look very foolish in the process.

Any of our non-Emma favorites could be extinguished at any time to serve A&E’s vision and story. Death by plot advancement/uselessness is the favored lethal weapon these guys have and they will use it whenever they feel like it. It is what being a creator is allll about. We know it. We live with it. We embrace the joy of the survivors or go somewhere else on Sunday night.

Twitter for all its fun, educational, entertainment value of being up close and somewhat personal with  “celebrity”, is, at its worst, a cesspool of crass posters with little class and less character. I don’t know why any of the performers would put up with the crap that passes for meaningful dialogue there. How many letters are there in the reply “P*ss Off, you are blocked*?~ a lot less than 140, and it would be spelled correctly, too.

PoM, I could have quoted the majority of your post! Yeah, Neal was all about Baelfire and Rumple. A compelling story on all counts. The ever-revered Tallahassee episode was all about Emma…and showed, more than anything else, a comparison of the possibilities of her opening up to a Hook relationship with her disastrously tacky beggerman-thief relationship with Neal. Neal came out of that looking like a chump. And it set the stage for WHY Emma had built those hideous walls, not why she and Neal were anything near a bona fide love match. They were a young lust/first love coupling disaster that presented a prime opportunity for *accident* Henry to begin his journey with serious connections to other main characters AND for the writers to introduce the edgy connection between TWO stubborn, emotionally ravaged and passionate characters that they planned to merge into one helluva couple. Hook and Emma.

Had they kept Neal anything like the younger Bae he would have been far more interesting and given Raymond James much more to sink his acting chops into.  A much more dramatic and intriguing relationship than Emma/Neal was Hook’s with Bae, even to the hospital scene in 3-15  and the message-by-bird to Hook! They didn’t go that route and Neal approached character roadblock. Giving him the exit they did, though it taxed the brain to see it stated as purely heroic and not selfish, provided a much grander legacy for Neal than if he had continued as a very weak, wobbly side of a delusional triangle.

Being enamored with the concept of first love=true love and “re-found baby makes three” is a very time honored, highly romantic, Hollywood golden-era notion and I can see the appeal. But relentlessly attacking the writers and demanding an invented “happily ever after” at the expense of the reality of what is actually written and filmed is pure, self-indulgent nonsense.

[ellemo78]

LOL love the real husbands of Storybrook 🙂 Something good to makes us smile.

So so glad I don’t do Twitter anymore and don’t have to deal with all that horrible stuff going on. It’s a tv show people, get over it. Someone mentioned Castle earlier, my absolutely favourite was killed off from that show but I don’t go complaining to the writers to put him back on. It’s just childish.

I did want to ask though, is all the vitriol being directed only at the writers? Or are the actors getting a fair slice of it too?

Totally agree with everything that’s been said in this thread about this hate campaign, we all seem like decent human beings who can put aside differences and actually talk about things in a civilised manner and not have to resort to throwing our toys out of the pram when we don’t get our way.

I don’t really call myself a shipper. It really wouldn’t bother me if Emma and Killian never got together. I won’t lie it is nice, yes but it’s not going to ruin my life one way or the other. I actually got annoyed when Neal died and really would have liked more stuff between Bae and Hook. That relationship never got fleshed out properly apart from that small reconciliation before Neal died. Bae obviously meant a lot of Hook, but we never saw it reciprocated. So when Neal said “I haven’t forgotten” was he referring to when Hook gave him over to Pan? Or was he remembering Hook looking after him before he demanded to be let off the ship. I still have lots of questions about their time in Neverland, but I’ll never get them answered now Neal is gone. The dynamics between Emma/Hook/Neal would have been good had they gone down the path of Emma/Hook with Neal just being an awesome father to Henry. We saw little bits back in Storybrooke after Neverland that Neal and Hook (and Tink) were starting to work well together as a team. I would have enjoyed those Neverland three bonding again.

If one is to engage with the primordial forces of darkness, one must expect a little social awkwardness

[surayya]

Bo-Peeps wrote:

(Frankly, having given a very wide berth to Neal fans after 3-15, to give them time to grieve and be respectful, the Hook, CS fans on this forum in particular went out of their way to avoid conflict or commentary that would further hurt Neal fans. The respect has not been equally returned, even with solidification of Hook and Emma being a true love couple.)

EXACTLY!!!!

obisgirl wrote:

What I don’t understand with these Neal fans, is if they’re still miserable watching the show- why are they still watching?
I would never force myself to watch something I’m not happy watching.

The fact remains that this show is Adam and Eddy’s brainchild and they can do whatever they want. If you’re not happy, feel free to tune out but don’t bring the rest of the fandom down with your nonsense. Tweeting “stoponceuponahook” to Adam was immature and an example of the very definition of “fan pandering”. A lot of fans are happy with the way the story stands.

That said, I’m sure there are going to be some negative questions asked at SDCC, either about Neal, SQ or even the rape culture argument. My hope is that Jane Espenson or one of the other female writers will be present to answer because God knows Adam and Eddy are going to get the brunt of the nastiness, and Jane manages to shut argumentative people down quite effectively.

I feel exactly the same way about booth points- I hope they take Jane this time as well!
I mean even on here, many still dont see CS as having much of a representation BECAUSE we’ve been so RESPECTFUL of SF/NF fans feelings- it’s such a shame that the same respect isnt returned by the same members whom insist on belittling our ship & Hook/Killy… I am proud that we have been the bigger people for the most part though.

It occurred to me earlier that SwanFire was never the main part of Bae’s story. It was just a way to tie all the characters together i.e. Emma and Snowing were connected so why not have Emma’s son be adopted by Regina and have his dad be the son of Rumple.

Bae’s story was always about Rumple, not Emma. His flashbacks were focussed around the Rumple/Bae story not the Emma/Neal story. EMMA’S flashbacks were the SwanFire story. If it was decided between seasons to kill off Neal (whether it be between 2&3 or 3A&3B) then having Bae forgive Rumple and the two reunite would be the big crescendo.

I get the feeling the writers weren’t quite sure what to do with Neal after he and Rumple had reunited. It would’ve been nice to see the family moments of the Floof family but the writers don’t like to give us too many happy moments, there’s always drama waiting round the corner.

Neal didn’t really have a lot to do in 3B beyond 315. His missing year scenes basically consisted of walking whilst talking with the exception of 315, that one scene in Kansas, and that one scene in the finale (which were lovely scenes of him). Neal wasn’t exactly front and centre in Neverland either. Neal was basically non-existant during 3B (Belle had the same problem in season 2 from 213-218. She’d appear for a scene or two in one episode to remind the audience she’s there but would disappear for the next two or three episodes until Lacey). I think Neal went the way of Ruby where the writers didn’t have room to fit him into the story, however, unlike Ruby who could disappear and have her whereabouts handwaved, storywise there was no valid reason why Neal wouldn’t be there for Henry.

So when Adam said that’s Neal’s death was story driven, what he could’ve meant was that they didn’t know what to do with Neal since he had reunited with Rumple, so unless they just had him “there” with nothing to really do (which would have been a waste of MRJ’s talent and unfair to him), Neal’s death was the only way to go as it would a) provide further motivations for the other characters b) It would be a good reason for why Neal wasn’t around when there would be no valid reason why Neal wouldn’t be with Henry if he was alive c) It frees MRJ up to pursue other project that provide more of an artistic challenge rather than just standing around and doing nothing in a scene.

The radio silence on Twitter from the cast about MRJ’s departure might not mean there was anything untoward going on. The death spoiler has been a very touchy subject for fans since the awful winter hiatus (during which Michael Coleman (Happy) was set upon by SQ fans) so it’s likely the cast were laying low until some of the emotionality of Neal’s death had died down a bit since they would’ve been beset with questions from angry fans. The cast would’ve wished MRJ well in person before he left.

Agreed.

Haha, love that bromance gif set! Thanks for sharing Lola 🙂

[surayya]

@POM, I agree wholeheartedly with your last post. That’s exactly what Neal was – part of Rumple’s story. When Neal is shown through Emma’s flashbacks there is what? one or two scenes that don’t ultimately lead up to a bad ending? Even the scene in the finale – very well done, and I thought lovely – until I saw a tweet of MRJ’s saying the glove bit was a throwback to the film “On the Waterfront” and it was explained that the character MRJ was mirroring was manipulative. Now, if MRJ put that in there, in the final SF scene of 3B, on purpose, that makes the scene quite interesting – and take on different meaning…and not positive meaning when it comes to Emma. And by the time I saw that tweet, the more vocal/hating Neal/SF fans had already made me sour – so instead of reading it and thinking ‘but Neal wasn’t manipulative,’ I couldn’t help but think ‘hmmm…now his getting engaged to Tamara and not going to Storybrooke after the curse was broken and pretty much moving on completely makes a LOT more sense.’ Ultimately, the septic fans themselves are the ones who changed my mind when it came to the character of Neal. And I say that as someone who is still pretty PO’d myself about the death. I think there was a lot more they could do with the Rumple/Bae storyline, and it would have been nice to see Henry being able to bond with his biological father finally, and to see Emma and Neal effectively co-parent Henry.

But you have to move on. This is an ensemble cast and deals with fantasy storylines. EVERYONE’S favorites could be on the chopping block theoretically. Every character is expendable – especially the larger the ensemble and OUAT has one of the largest casts there is. This is not Castle, for example, where there are 5ish leads and one main ship. Plot holes and retcons and deaths – sensical or nonsensical – are to be expected. If you can’t handle watching because you weren’t ready for your favorite ensemble character to die/go away/get less screen time/not end up with the character you wanted them with – you have the option to stop watching. For me, it’s far more fun to let go of any issues I may have, and sit back and enjoy. If I get upset or bored with it, then I’ll just tune out. But it would never occur to me to harass the writers/actors, or have a giant ‘public’ stink for the world to see.

I totally missed MRJ saying that! That really does shed a whole new (& FAR from attractive) light on that particular scene. It actually surprises me, that I’m not actually very ‘surprised’ to hear it tbh, because I had wondered about this fact back in 3A, when he manipulated Robin into using his son & also a few things he said/did with Rumple & Emma niggled at me as well, but I thought it was probably just my ‘shipping goggles’ talking- looks like that wasnt the case after all o.O

Agree with your 2nd point totally as well, at this point if Killy was written off now, I think I’d probably stop watching for a while, but would ‘catch up’, after I’d ‘got’ over his absence (how ever long that took), then decide if I wanted to continue on with the with the show or not
(for me it’d depend on if the other characters story lines are interesting enough to keep me wanting to watch… this is ultimately why I took a break in S2 & it was Hook & Emma’s stories that hooked me back into the show)… I’d NEVER consider hating on cast, writers or creators though, Never.

Adam and Eddy are only guilty of *pandering* when it isn’t about Neal and his fans’ demands doncha know (wink). The fans who *go there* see themselves as immune to accountability for all the accusations they throw around. (accusations with no or seriously lame support)

Sadly, obisgirl, there is no understanding necessary. They are miserable because they want to be miserable. They did not get their True Love way, and instead of just shaking their heads, rightfully snorting for a few days and finding something else to watch or follow that won’t threaten their tender sensibilities, they relentlessly spew meanness. Because if they do not get what they want, by Gawd no one shall be spared their undignified wrath! As if they are the only fans whose opinions are valid.

None of us have that power. We either accept it, continue the journey, or whine like a putz and look very foolish in the process.

Any of our non-Emma favorites could be extinguished at any time to serve A&E’s vision and story. Death by plot advancement/uselessness is the favored lethal weapon these guys have and they will use it whenever they feel like it. It is what being a creator is allll about. We know it. We live with it. We embrace the joy of the survivors or go somewhere else on Sunday night.

Twitter for all its fun, educational, entertainment value of being up close and somewhat personal with “celebrity”, is, at its worst, a cesspool of crass posters with little class and less character. I don’t know why any of the performers would put up with the crap that passes for meaningful dialogue there. How many letters are there in the reply “P*ss Off, you are blocked*?~ a lot less than 140, and it would be spelled correctly, too…..

Being enamored with the concept of first love=true love and “re-found baby makes three” is a very time honored, highly romantic, Hollywood golden-era notion and I can see the appeal. But relentlessly attacking the writers and demanding an invented “happily ever after” at the expense of the reality of what is actually written and filmed is pure, self-indulgent nonsense

What more can be said other than ‘yep, agreed’ 😉

[surayya]

So so glad I don’t do Twitter anymore and don’t have to deal with all that horrible stuff going on. It’s a tv show people, get over it. Someone mentioned Castle earlier, my absolutely favourite was killed off from that show but I don’t go complaining to the writers to put him back on. It’s just childish.

I love Castle as well- who was your fav that got killed off?

I did want to ask though, is all the vitriol being directed only at the writers? Or are the actors getting a fair slice of it too?

I’m not sure this time, as dont really follow many of the actors anymore from Once (I only follow Adam as I figure his word is finale on show ‘law’ lol)

Bae and Hook. That relationship never got fleshed out properly apart from that small reconciliation before Neal died. Bae obviously meant a lot of Hook, but we never saw it reciprocated. So when Neal said “I haven’t forgotten” was he referring to when Hook gave him over to Pan? Or was he remembering Hook looking after him before he demanded to be let off the ship.

Absolutely agree with you here.

[ellemo78]

I love Castle as well- who was your fav that got killed off?

*headdesk* Having a dumb moment today. Not Castle, I meant Bones! Castle just reminded me as I associate those two shows together b/c they used to be on one after another here. 😀 But it was Mr Nigel-Murray. He didn’t have many episodes, but he obviously made an impression on me.
But I do like Castle too, how can one not love Nathan Fillion? 😀

If one is to engage with the primordial forces of darkness, one must expect a little social awkwardness

[surayya]

surayya wrote:

I love Castle as well- who was your fav that got killed off?

*headdesk* Having a dumb moment today. Not Castle, I meant Bones! Castle just reminded me as I associate those two shows together b/c they used to be on one after another here. But it was Mr Nigel-Murray. He didn’t have many episodes, but he obviously made an impression on me.
But I do like Castle too, how can one not love Nathan Fillion?

Lol, we all have those moments 😉 Yeah- I was sad when poor Nigel died too (yep I’m also a Bones fan… Mentalist & NCIS {I STILL miss Ziva, the show hasnt been as good IMO, since that character left. That doesnt mean the new character isnt well played, it just means the dynamics on the show have changed & are no longer as enjoyable or interesting to watch as they once were for me personally} fan as well, my fav currently running show at the moment, is Continuum though).

It’s funny because as I think about it, I usually dont watch shows for “couples”- nor is that the primary reason I watch them usually- it’s just the icing on the cake for me usually lol
ie. What I used to enjoy most about Arrow (another show I LOVE), was the fact that I knew where it was going (since it’s based on comic books… for the most part), now however, I’d seriously dislike if they put the 2 characters that are together in the comic book versions, together :/. I find the character that is ‘supposed’ to be with the lead, a little too much like Neal (lack luster & she’s done ‘to much emotional damage’ to her supposed love interest IMO, to make that pairing work on a romantic level), yet a character whom was only meant to be a one off token pretty, quirky IT girl, all but stole the show with her chemistry with the lead character & now is a main character in her own right…. I’m not sure what to think, as I am rooting for those 2 to be paired lol (I find their relationship a little like Cs tbh lol- one isnt making it a secret that they like the other, but the other is to scared to actually allow himself to “love someone they could really care about”)- will be interesting to see how that works out.

Continuum is awesome- no romantic pairings to worry about, no love triangles etc (well ok, there was one in a manner of speaking lol, but that got resolved quickly). There is ‘chemistry’ between the 2 leads, but it isnt “all about the romance” or “sexual tension” + the lead female has a child & husband in a future that may not come into existence anymore, so there’s that in the way + the new twist that was added this season lol- gotta love this show for it’s often bold directions ;). The ‘bad’ guys actually have a lot of ‘good’ points & the ‘good’ guys, have a lot of ‘bad’ points… so it is very interesting to watch just the plot being unfolded around the character stories- love the whole concept that seems to be coming in now, of when is ‘good’ intentions/ greater good, pushed over the line to simply ‘wrong’ or immoral. It’s also has ‘good’ characters, transforming into ‘bad’, ‘bad’ transforming into ‘good’ & those whom walk the fence & shadows/shades between the two.
It’s nice to just be able to focus on just the story & characters, without having to worry or think about who’s with who or who should be with who, who has jaded who. It makes a refreshing change from current tv trends (not that there is anything wrong with loving a show due to pairings/couples etc. on it.) It’s just nice to feel like there isn’t a ‘side’ to take- if that makes sense 🙂

[sweetgrass]

I loved Nigel-Murray and was shocked that he died.  It was very moving.

Word on :

ellemo78 wrote:

Bae and Hook. That relationship never got fleshed out properly apart from that small reconciliation before Neal died. Bae obviously meant a lot of Hook, but we never saw it reciprocated. So when Neal said “I haven’t forgotten” was he referring to when Hook gave him over to Pan? Or was he remembering Hook looking after him before he demanded to be let off the ship.

I so wish that the Hook-Bae-Rumple triangle was the one the writers explored, because there is natural tension and drama and is not a clichéd love triangle.  Oh, what might have been.

I also agree with POM with respect to:

PriceofMagic wrote:

It occurred to me earlier that SwanFire was never the main part of Bae’s story. It was just a way to tie all the characters together i.e. Emma and Snowing were connected so why not have Emma’s son be adopted by Regina and have his dad be the son of Rumple.

Bae’s story was always about Rumple, not Emma. His flashbacks were focussed around the Rumple/Bae story not the Emma/Neal story. EMMA’S flashbacks were the SwanFire story. If it was decided between seasons to kill off Neal (whether it be between 2&3 or 3A&3B) then having Bae forgive Rumple and the two reunite would be the big crescendo.

It is so sad that we didn’t see more interaction between Neal and Rumple in StoryBrooke prior to going to Neverland.  It was oddly anti-climatic.  Here was the person that Rumple had spent 300 years trying to find and then nothing.  It’s odd.

Can someone explain the glove reference to Waterfront?  I am unfamiliar with the movie so I don’t understand it’s revalance.

On the  rabid Neal fans (which is not to say all Neal fans are rabid), I worry for them a little bit.  The grief and righteous anger seems so misplaced to me.  I wanted to give them some space and time to deal with their disappointment, but now I feel it has only caused the most rabid ones to wallow in their bitterness.  It is almost like allowing their righteous anger to go unchallenged has only fueled the anger not squelched it.  it’s a shame because I actually liked their analysis on this show until it became too skewed by an anti-Hook bias that it no longer feels like we are watching the same show.   I worry because it doesn’t seem healthy to spew so much negativity on a fictional show.

On another board I frequent there was SF shipper, I didn’t always agree with her, but I was glad she posted because good to hear another perspective.  Anyways, after Neal die, there was a twitter photo of the cast laughing while filming the  funeral and she was angry that anyone would laugh or enjoy their job because Neal had died.  She felt it was disrespectful to Neal and his fans.  Another poster set her straight — No one really died.  Neal is a fictional character and expecting the other actors to mourn a fictional character in real life was not reasonable expectation.  A lot of poster upvoted the response.  The SF shipper still posted and still expressed her dislike for the show’s direction, but did so in a way that was no longer self-righteous.  Occasionally, there was a very slight favor of sour grapes in her posts, but most of the time the posts were analytical.

Keeper of Hook and Emma's smoldering first kiss, a certain Pirate's sauciness, the Evil Queen's snarkiness, Grumpy's gruffness and a drop of true love to make it all go down smooth.

[ellemo78]

Lol, we all have those moments Yeah- I was sad when poor Nigel died too (yep I’m also a Bones fan… Mentalist & NCIS {I STILL miss Ziva, the show hasnt been as good IMO, since that character left. That doesnt mean the new character isnt well played, it just means the dynamics on the show have changed & are no longer as enjoyable or interesting to watch as they once were for me personally} fan as well, my fav currently running show at the moment, is Continuum though).

It’s funny because as I think about it, I usually dont watch shows for “couples”- nor is that the primary reason I watch them usually- it’s just the icing on the cake for me usually lol
…

It’s nice to just be able to focus on just the story & characters, without having to worry or think about who’s with who or who should be with who, who has jaded who. It makes a refreshing change from current tv trends (not that there is anything wrong with loving a show due to pairings/couples etc. on it.) It’s just nice to feel like there isn’t a ‘side’ to take- if that makes sense

There are quite a few shows I watch where a character has left, and it always takes time to get used to the gap they’ve left or their replacement.

I’ve never seen Continuum but it sounds pretty good. I may have to check it out. 🙂

And yes, it is nice not to worry about romantic chemistry between the leads. That’s one reason I really liked the Law&Order series. Esp CI and SVU to a point, the main two male/female characters were friends/partners but there wasn’t really an inkling of romance between them. It’s nice to show that men and woman can be friends and that they can be there for each other without the need for an underlying sexual tension.

If one is to engage with the primordial forces of darkness, one must expect a little social awkwardness

[Killian Jones]

 

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