Home › Forums › Once Upon a Time › General discussion and theories › The Captain Swan thread!
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August 9, 2014 at 9:39 am #279777Jenna_BParticipant
Ok, and I totally admit this is probably me looking through my shipper goggles, but I don’t know that Hook necessarily actually planned to take Henry anywhere — rather, used the opportunity to distract Henry. We know Henry has both of his mothers’ stubborn streaks – and Hook is well aware too. So to me, it seemed more of a divert and then fix the situation kind of thing. I think Hook knows it would’ve been better for Henry in the long run if Hook lied to him to to protect him and have Henry PO’d at Hook…and really, what was he going to do? Let him drive (attempt to drive) off to NY? So I never really got particularly up in arms about his actions there. Of course, I also never picked up on the whole ‘Hook was alluding to kidnapping and (possibly) having his non-consensual way with Milah’ to Rumple in…2×4? I believe? I always thought it was more of a ‘prove to me (and her, she’s just below deck afterall…one last chance to show her) that you love her enough to fight for her’. So yeah, my Hook goggles can get pretty thick!
And I guess I don’t really think of Hook’s persistence if you will as being clingy or overbearing…you have to put it into context. Emma is seriously scarred and terrified that people are going to leave her. Worse, she’s terrified she’s not good enough for love or family or even friends. So while yes, some of Hook’s actions might be clingy to the less-scarred, with Emma, he understands that he really needs to be that way with her. She’s not going to accept that she’s worthy of love very easily, and needs almost constant reassurance from someone who’s trying to get past her walls that they WILL NOT leave her. And she makes that insanely difficult. Hook’s tenacity reminds me of Henry’s in S1, and his support is much like Graham’s was – and they were the first 2 people she really started feeling comfortable with in Storybrooke. Emma approaches life in general like a fight, and you not only have to be willing to fight back to get through to her, the way you’re going to win that fight is to use non-traditional tools that she isn’t going to expect coming. I think that’s why Snow struggles when it comes to bonding with Emma. Once they got their memories back, 30 years of baggage suddenly presented itself…and ultimately, it’s 30 years of baggage Snow didn’t actually have to think about since her memories were wiped…Snow doesn’t understand that Emma is going to use this baggage as her weapon to keep Snow at a distance and ultimately, it’s up to Snow to fight her way through to get to Emma. Why Snow has difficulty understanding, I’m not sure. Maybe because she spent so much time still looking for the good in Regina and learned how to selectively see what you want to see in a person/situation…
~~
I guess I put this together (I’m not really huge into all the parallels, symbolism was never my strong point) but when you lay the two scene out like this…awwww how can you not adore our Captains?!
legen-waitforit-marriedSource:<small>Captain Swan thinking that the other doesn’t care but them telling each other that they do.(Season 2 Finale | Season 3 Finale)</small>
~~
We can take a break on the Neal, no problems! (With maybe the caveat that it’s not a banned topic – one of the best parts of our little haven is our ability to go off topic when needed! But I don’t want to turn the place into an ‘Ugh, That Guy’ thread either! 🙂 ) I like the idea of maybe doing a weekly rewatch and then maybe picking a day or two to present our analyses if you will? Something like that so people with busier schedules can participate? Maybe either start from beginning of CS to end, or pick some favorite episodes?
[adrotate group="5"]August 9, 2014 at 11:20 am #279778PriceofMagicParticipantOf course, I also never picked up on the whole ‘Hook was alluding to kidnapping and (possibly) having his non-consensual way with Milah’ to Rumple in…2×4? I believe? I always thought it was more of a ‘prove to me (and her, she’s just below deck afterall…one last chance to show her) that you love her enough to fight for her’. So yeah, my Hook goggles can get pretty thick!
Season 2 Hook is definitely NOT my favourite person on the show (though I did like him in Tallahassee). Season 3 at least put Hook in the top 10 favourite characters (and 3B sent Regina plunging down along with Snow).
Emma approaches life in general like a fight, and you not only have to be willing to fight back to get through to her, the way you’re going to win that fight is to use non-traditional tools that she isn’t going to expect coming. I think that’s why Snow struggles when it comes to bonding with Emma. Once they got their memories back, 30 years of baggage suddenly presented itself…and ultimately, it’s 30 years of baggage Snow didn’t actually have to think about since her memories were wiped…Snow doesn’t understand that Emma is going to use this baggage as her weapon to keep Snow at a distance and ultimately, it’s up to Snow to fight her way through to get to Emma. Why Snow has difficulty understanding, I’m not sure. Maybe because she spent so much time still looking for the good in Regina and learned how to selectively see what you want to see in a person/situation…
Season 2 Snow told Emma to “Get used to it” about being put first but it seems like in season 3, Snow’s given up on Emma. Snow wanted a new baby because Emma’s no longer small and cute and that the relationship they currently share is “not what I wanted”.
Screwball puts it better in her review of Ariel
Speaking of some light procreation, let’s talk a bit about Snow White’s confession in the cave. First off, let me add a few disclaimers: Snow has every right to feel how she wants to feel. Regina really did a number on her and her family, and giving up Emma to the tender mercies of foster care in another realm must have been a heart-wrenching decision. Also, Plot Twist Cave or whatever it’s called requires that you reveal your DARKEST secret that you would never tell anyone normally, so I’m sure Snow would never have burdened Emma with this confession under normal circumstances. And I promised to write something nice about the Charmings this week and that’s on the way— I don’t mean to sound like a hater. BUT (and it’s a big but, and I cannot lie)— the WAY Snow confessed her secret was pretty damn mean to Emma.
What’s the first thing we find out about Emma? Her massive, Godzilla-sized abandonment issues. She tells Henry right off the bat that the foster family she was with until she was 3 years old GAVE HER BACK once they had a kid of their own. And she cried herself to sleep in foster care because she was waiting for her parents to come and get her. And then Neal and August enchanted dude-bro-ed her into a prison sentence and, you know, giving up her baby. The girl really needs some stability and to feel WANTED, especially by her parents— which she flat-out TOLD her mother in a tearful confession not a couple episodes ago.
Exhibit A: Season 1
Exhibit B: Season 2
EXHIBIT C: Season 3 OH MY GODAnd what does Snow White do? Says she wants another baby ‘cause they missed out on Emma’s smaller, more adorable formative years. If that’s how she feels, okay, but then Snow keeps going ON AND ON ABOUT IT, just in case Emma didn’t get the message that the future Snowing fetus is a replacement baby.
“If it’s a girl, we’ll call her ‘Better Than Emma’! What do you think?”Couldn’t Snow have told Emma and Hook to go play pattycake in a corner and shove their fingers in their ears while Snow told Charming her secret? I don’t think Hook, Snow and Charming heard Emma’s confession to Neal, so you don’t have to blurt your secret to the WHOLE cave— just one other person. What on earth was Snow thinking, telling her daughter to her face that she’s smart and pretty and brave and all, but she’s getting a 4-F in the daughter department ‘cause she’s TOO OLD?
“Sorry, but I don’t think they even make bunny pajamas in your size, Emma— clearly, we have to start again with a child we can REALLY love the way we want, instead of the way you need”
Damn, Snow. I know Snow White:: Secrets as Oil::Water, but I really hope Snow isn’t as “honest” in all aspects of her life as she is here.
We can take a break on the Neal, no problems! (With maybe the caveat that it’s not a banned topic – one of the best parts of our little haven is our ability to go off topic when needed! But I don’t want to turn the place into an ‘Ugh, That Guy’ thread either! ) I like the idea of maybe doing a weekly rewatch and then maybe picking a day or two to present our analyses if you will? Something like that so people with busier schedules can participate? Maybe either start from beginning of CS to end, or pick some favorite episodes?
I’d be up for that. It would be interesting to rewatch the CS scenes and see if I view them differently now. For example, the “When I win your heart” scene. Hated it initially, rewatched it, now have a more positive view of it.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixAugust 9, 2014 at 12:16 pm #279780obisgirlParticipantI can’t wait until season three premieres on Netflix (August 29th!!!). I look forward to hearing the commentaries when they’re posted. There’s a few good tumblr users who upload to soundcloud with ripped audio from Once DVD commentaries, so I’m hoping I’ll get that again. I download them and add to my iTunes.
The Special Features look great.
August 9, 2014 at 3:44 pm #279785callmeLolaParticipantWorse is that nothing the writers say or do is good enough. If they mention Neal, it’s wrong because it pours salt in the wound since Neal is no longer on the show and is only paying Neal stans lip service; if they don’t mention Neal, it’s wrong because the writers are ignoring the importance of Neal. It’s also wrong to assume that the actors are not friends with MRJ. Everyone in the cast seems to get along and to be friends. I’ve heard JenMo, Colin and RC say nice things about MRJ after he left the show. The actors don’t control the show and didn’t make the decision to have Neal written out of the show. I don’t know what they expect the cast to do. Are they supposed to stage a protest because Neal was written off? I don’t get it. We have no idea what went on behind the scenes and that’s the way it should be as the cast and crew are professionals.
I agree with you @sweetgrass. This is what upsets me most of all, the HATE JMO, Colin A and E etc etc have received because they somehow didn’t make a show of “supporting” MRJ or by going along with the “crap” (not my word) that they believe the show has become. I LOVED S3! I LOVED the character development. Admittedly, I was not a big Nealfire fan but he served his purpose on the show and those loose ends have been tied up. The End. Don’t really care if they even bring him up anymore. MRJ as moved on to greener pastures and by his tweets it sounds like he’s having a blast, so lets just leave it at that. Do anyone honestly think that MRJ is upset over leaving OUAT? Get real, it was just a job. Calling A and E “trolls” for killing him off and getting angry with the cast for not publicly tweeting MRJ over his new project is just stupid.
August 9, 2014 at 4:11 pm #279788callmeLolaParticipanthttp://i-love-you-swan.tumblr.com/
What CSers have know all along, but it was nice to have confirmed 🙂
August 9, 2014 at 9:37 pm #279800ellemo78ParticipantOk, and I totally admit this is probably me looking through my shipper goggles, but I don’t know that Hook necessarily actually planned to take Henry anywhere — rather, used the opportunity to distract Henry. We know Henry has both of his mothers’ stubborn streaks – and Hook is well aware too. So to me, it seemed more of a divert and then fix the situation kind of thing. I think Hook knows it would’ve been better for Henry in the long run if Hook lied to him to to protect him and have Henry PO’d at Hook…and really, what was he going to do? Let him drive (attempt to drive) off to NY? So I never really got particularly up in arms about his actions there. Of course, I also never picked up on the whole ‘Hook was alluding to kidnapping and (possibly) having his non-consensual way with Milah’ to Rumple in…2×4? I believe? I always thought it was more of a ‘prove to me (and her, she’s just below deck afterall…one last chance to show her) that you love her enough to fight for her’. So yeah, my Hook goggles can get pretty thick!
Aboslutely. Even Henry was calling him out on the ‘kidnapping’. He didn’t believe that Hook and Smee were actually going to take him to NY. He was dripping with sarcasm when he was asking which boat they were going to take. Henry’s a bright lad, we see him get more and more frustrated with being kept in the dark. He even asked Killian why he was helping him. Hook was about to answer and then Monkey Attack! So when Hook yelled at Smee to find another boat, it was just to get Henry away from said monkey attack. Although I’ve always wondered how Emma knew Hook was planning on putting Henry on a boat. Did Smee tell her in passing as they were running into the boatshed?
And I guess I don’t really think of Hook’s persistence if you will as being clingy or overbearing…you have to put it into context. Emma is seriously scarred and terrified that people are going to leave her. Worse, she’s terrified she’s not good enough for love or family or even friends. So while yes, some of Hook’s actions might be clingy to the less-scarred, with Emma, he understands that he really needs to be that way with her. She’s not going to accept that she’s worthy of love very easily, and needs almost constant reassurance from someone who’s trying to get past her walls that they WILL NOT leave her. And she makes that insanely difficult. Hook’s tenacity reminds me of Henry’s in S1, and his support is much like Graham’s was – and they were the first 2 people she really started feeling comfortable with in Storybrooke. Emma approaches life in general like a fight, and you not only have to be willing to fight back to get through to her, the way you’re going to win that fight is to use non-traditional tools that she isn’t going to expect coming.
This is why I never got the stalking vibe that the Hook-haters seem to find in his actions. I too don’t see his behaviour as clingy or persistant. He’s just there as part of their Pan Defeating Team and then later as part of the Wicked Witch Defeating Team. But I don’t see how that’s a bad thing. It’s an extra person on their side (and someone b/c he has feelings for Emma, won’t ever betray them) Even if he’s trying to get into Emma’s good books, they’re building up a true and honest friendship. Look how spare Emma goes when she finds out Hook was keeping the magic-stealing kiss curse from her. If he wasn’t her friend, she wouldn’t have been so p-off at him.
But I’ve been thinking back on at least season 3 to try and work out where Hook *actually* acts stalkerish (for want of a better word) and I can’t find any example. Perhaps the only instance I can remember of him ‘forcing’ (again, for want of a better word) his company onto Emma was when he invited himself along to help capture the shadow from Dark Hollow. He obviously didn’t want Neal and Emma to have too much alone time, but Neal thanked him for his offer, so he wasn’t an unwelcome guest in their party.
Then all throughout 3B there is no forcing his company on Emma. He proved himself enough in Neverland to have built up trust with the Charmings, so he is there heping out. Even by looking after Belle and Ariel, which quite obviously he doesn’t want to do, but he does for the greater good. Also Hook still has his memories. Why wouldn’t the good guys use that asset?
All those times you see Emma walking away from him, that isn’t Emma saying “I don’t want anything to do with you“. It’s Emma saying in her childish way “I’m done with this conversation. I don’t want to discuss this.” I just don’t see him as anything other than a friend and not just to Emma. He and Charming are getting closer too. You can tell by the way they interact at Granny’s in the finale. Charming is quite proud to tell Hook of his adventures, as Hook’s the only one who doesn’t know this story. You don’t see Charming interact with the other boys much. He must like having another bloke around to chat to.
If one is to engage with the primordial forces of darkness, one must expect a little social awkwardness
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http://locks-magnetic.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=211845&extra=August 9, 2014 at 10:35 pm #279803obisgirlParticipantOne thing I’ve always sort of noticed but Adam and Eddy have never really discussed is seeing Hook bond with the important men in Emma’s life. I read a meta about this awhile back. In the beginning of season three, Hook and Charming were not close friends. They weren’t enemies either. The only reason Charming disliked Hook probably is because a) the pirate thing and b) he used to be a villain.
But Hook proved himself in the Neverland arc. He saved Charming’s life and now, they have a secret bro nod whenever they see each other and Charming generally has Hook’s back when he needs help (the hospital scene in Kansas).
And then there’s Hook and Henry, the foremost important male figure in Emma’s life. He’s her first true love and you could tell when Hook spoke to him about Bae in 3×16, he really liked him. And Hook likes Henry too.
Henry and Neal I can understand bonding but Neal never had this bonding thing with Snow and Charming. That’s why it so weird for Snow to be so ‘Team Neal’ when she hardly talked to him at all in season three. What does she know about him other than the fact that he’s Rumple son and he had a relationship with Emma? NOTHING!! And now the Snowing baby is named Neal. It’s still my head canon that was something Snow pushed for, not Charming.
I hope we get more Hook and Henry bonding in season four. I hope Henry doesn’t simply ignore Hook just because he has his memories back. If Henry remembers what Hook said about Bae as a child, he wouldn’t ignore him right?
And I think besides Captain Charming, Colin and Josh are awesome together on set. I just imagine Colin giving Josh new dad advice since Evan’s about a year old now.
August 11, 2014 at 7:52 am #279834ellemo78ParticipantI really shouldn’t read anti-Hook things, but I do (and I know I’m silly for it) but this particular meta was trying to persude us that his ship was only an object and by the time he sacrficed it he didn’t care much for it, so therefore his ‘sacrifice’ to get to Emma wasn’t all that big. *rolls eyes* But then I saw this and it cheered me up:
If one is to engage with the primordial forces of darkness, one must expect a little social awkwardness
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