The Captain Swan thread!

[kfchimera]

@MysteryKat25 wrote:

If this is the set-up for true love on this show and CaptainSwan isn’t…then everything we ever knew is a lie and it’s all meaningless. Cause I just don’t understand…at all.

This is the CS thread, and with the mood having been a bit low since the finale, I think it is best not to discuss in detail here, but if you really want to try to understand it, I’d discuss it. Some points you raise are things I have responses far as how I see it differently, and there are some issues I see as “yes, there is that, but future storyline will work around resolving this.” These concepts also apply to how I see Hook and Emma, of course, which is why I’ve said before that the anti-Neal, anti-SF stuff usually ends up undermining (to me anyway) the logic/purpose of putting Hook and Emma together.

I feel this thread is getting bogged down with almost propaganda style reasoning about what makes SF bad, rather than what everyone likes and hopes for in a CS pairing. I half expect to see a poster like “Neal: Wrong about Tamara. Wrong for Emma.” straight out of a manipulative political add tactic. Such things cut out a lot of the subtle things that happened in the show, the tough choices characters had to face in the plot. When the plot unfolds one way, only the writers know what might have happened–we fans are just writing or sometimes re-writing the story when we do a well if they’d just done THIS, then that would have happened. (Like when I imagine what might have happened if Hook had tried to challenge Cora when Emma, Snow, Mulan and Aurora were in Rumpel’s cell and concluded there was nothing he could have done).

I would rather see the best case for both possibilities, so I can choose to root for the one I find more interesting/likely. I don’t mean “straw man” best cases–but the best cases as put forth as passionately and completely as possible. That’s why I like to go to different shipper threads.

Suraya’s list is quite something–as is a post that SaraTN linked long ago about what made CS so tantalizing as a story line. Those kinds of posts move me to think CS has potential. I want to see both sides. That way, I’m also not surprised or misled and let down–and never frustrated to the point of feeling like I wasted my time rooting for something that the writers actually intended as a romantic red herring–whether that is SF or CS.

Now with that out of the way–I also don’t like the trope of “stay together for the child”, but I think there’s a difference between that and something more Jerry Maguireish, more romantic. I do think though both Neal and Hook could have that quality of being “good father material” though we only glimpsed the early stages and attempts at being fatherly. Characters need to start off at a lower point in order to grow in the story, so I don’t think Hook has been shown to be bad with kids. I’m really hoping there’s more to the story with Bae, but if not, then there’ll be stuff with Henry and the rescue.

It’s quite exciting for CS to know that Hook and Emma have this common goal, that she isn’t thinking Neal is alive/sensing a connection to him, and of course, Hook’s growth in putting aside his revenge to save Henry.

I don’t know that Hook is “done” being Hook–feels too early in the story for him to be completely redeemed. I expect some sneaky twists–just like Rumpel wasn’t ready to be Grandpastilskin back in Manhattan.

[AllThatGlitters]

I agree this thread should by no means bash Neal or SF. In fact, I think a majority of CaptainSwanners want to understand Neal and like him if he indeed the one she ends up with. I just think that some of us don’t understand some of the actions he has done. Maybe Season 3 will have more character development for him. When it comes to Emma and Hook, you can’t help but compare them to Emma and Neal because of Tallahassee. The writers set it up that we compare the two men in relation to Emma.

Find me on tumblr: http://allthatglittersonce.tumblr.com

[obisgirl]

I’ve seen these posts on tumblr that ST fans want Hook with Regina, just so Emma can be with Neal. Seriously. That would be a horrible pairing, not to mention that Hook has now shown ANY romantic interest towards Regina at all this season. And yet, they still ‘ship it because that will make Emma free for Neal. I’m like, that is not the reason why you ‘ship a couple.

I’ve ‘shipped couples for a long time, and usually, there are pretty valid reasons to root for one ‘ship over the other. But to ship Hook with Regina just so make your OTP possible is a horrible reason.

@MysteryKat25 wrote:

Not once does Neal say they were meant to be together FOREVER, but that “something good came from us being together” – aka, past tense. He was also pretty quick to tell Emma to get out of her deal with Rumple and lie about finding Neal so that she’d never have to see him again (and moreso that Rumple wouldn’t find him…) Does that sound like a man who is thrilled to have the “love of his life” in front of him again? Is he remotely fighting to get her to stay with him? NO. He is telling her to run away fast and that had he known who she was he never would have gone near her.

This goes back to the idea that all of Neal’s stuff relates to the PAST and Hook’s language focuses on the FUTURE.

I think it’s very important note about the language used in reference to Hook and Neal. Language and the words writers use can tell/show us a lot about their respective characters. It’s like what I was saying before about Neal representing a part of Emma’s childhood but Hook is her future.

It’s not coincidental when you look at the story format of Tallahassee and Snow Falls, both episodes show past/present (Snow meeting charming vs. MM & David’s struggle to stay away from each other in the present / Emma’s past with Neal and her relationship with Hook in the present).

I’m working on analysis post regarding Fighting for True Love, which will eventually delve into Emma/Neal and Emma/Hook and why Hook is better for Emma in the end. Especially since ‘fighting for True Love’ has been a big theme since season one; you still see aspects of it from this past season.

[surayya]

I think sometimes people simply get passionate about their ship, so come off a little strong- esp if their ship is being bashed on message boards/forums etc.

KFChimera I can kind of see your point to a certain degree (esp on bashing driving you to the opposite ship)- know I cant stand a number of forums because they are so anti CS, so I no longer visit them… at all. However that hate/bashing doesn’t drive me deeper into CS- I let my own interpretation of the story/show do that & nothing else. I generally don’t want to frustrate myself & end up in stupid discussions/arguments with people who simply don’t care what is offered up on the show- they ship what they will, as they will, show be damned & it’s usually those who are the strong haters (go figure lol 😉 ) & so are not worth talking to/at- no matter how much proof is offered up, it wont change their minds.

For me, I try to understand why people like/want SF to work, but personally for me his actions (whether he felt them ‘for the best’ or not) in context of what he did, who he did it too & then his lack of remorse etc afterwards, is simply unacceptable (I wont go into why- it’s been done to death already 😉 ) & doesn’t point to TL in the context of the show. I guess for me, I relate to Emma really well, so that being a darn big deal breaker for me personally flavors my take on it- others may be more forgiving.

SF & CS are going to be compared strongly & constantly, as they are the only 2 suitors for her on the show currently (I don’t count Jeff as he isn’t ‘on’ the show as such, so it’s not very likely at this stage in the game given how things have played out) & if people ship one over the other they are going to offer reasons why- I have no problems with that- everyone is entitled to their opinions & frankly they can be interesting & highlight different aspects of ships I hadn’t noticed or considered before- as long as they don’t start going on about SF/CS never happening/ wanting one dead- just so their ship can happen, fans being insulted or bullied for who they ship or why they ship who they do, saying silly things like ‘such & such’ is canon, when it isn’t & my fav, saying A&E said ‘such & such’, when all they really said was the usual noncommittal phrases which basically equate to ‘not telling, you’ll have to watch & see what happens’ etc…. I REALLY hope the newbies that come in next season are mostly guys, because we have a growing number of chicks missing their princes now & only 2 guys front & center with them all, to fill the roles 😕

At the end of the day it’s the way they’ve set Emma up, that to me rules endgame SF out (I firmly believe SF will have their moment- I feel they need to to truly grow & move on), yet leaves the possibility for CS endgame at this stage (who knows where they will take us, it’s entirely possible she will end up with someone we haven’t meet yet or worse, she may not survive the series final). So far they have set Emma up as Neal being the greatest hurt in her life, the one that destroyed her trust to the point of totally walling herself off from letting people in, loving or ever truly trusting someone again- so for me, Neal could start singing rainbows into existence for baby Care Bares & I still wouldn’t love him as endgame for Emma- I might like HIM more, but not SF (I hope that distinction makes sense).

[surayya]

@obisgirl wrote:

I’ve seen these posts on tumblr that ST fans want Hook with Regina, just so Emma can be with Neal. Seriously. That would be a horrible pairing, not to mention that Hook has now shown ANY romantic interest towards Regina at all this season. And yet, they still ‘ship it because that will make Emma free for Neal. I’m like, that is not the reason why you ‘ship a couple.

I’ve ‘shipped couples for a long time, and usually, there are pretty valid reasons to root for one ‘ship over the other. But to ship Hook with Regina just so make your OTP possible is a horrible reason.

I think it’s very important note about the language used in reference to Hook and Neal. Language and the words writers use can tell/show us a lot about their respective characters. It’s like what I was saying before about Neal representing a part of Emma’s childhood but Hook is her future.

It’s not coincidental when you look at the story format of Tallahassee and Snow Falls, both episodes show past/present (Snow meeting charming vs. MM & David’s struggle to stay away from each other in the present / Emma’s past with Neal and her relationship with Hook in the present).

I’m working on analysis post regarding Fighting for True Love, which will eventually delve into Emma/Neal and Emma/Hook and why Hook is better for Emma in the end. Especially since ‘fighting for True Love’ has been a big theme since season one; you still see aspects of it from this past season.

*Nods in agreement* & I look forward to reading that analysis.

[obisgirl]

Okay, it’s done. Fighting for True Love.

[kfchimera]

@obisgirl wrote:

I’ve ‘shipped couples for a long time, and usually, there are pretty valid reasons to root for one ‘ship over the other. But to ship Hook with Regina just so make your OTP possible is a horrible reason.

My first impression was exactly what you say, plus I thought they would just drag each other down. I feel the same way about Neal/Mulan or Neal/Regina suggestions. Then I came across a blog that had me change my mind on Hook and Regina a little. It’s the wrong thread to lay it all out, but here is a sketch of it.

I’ve seen people say they want Hook with Emma rather than a character like Ariel, since Hook is their favorite character, and a guest or recurring character for a romantic partner won’t cut it, especially one they haven’t even seen. So for some people, Regina is THEIR favorite, and the same logic applies. While Regina and Hook do not have strong romantic /flirty vibes to me, others say they see chemistry, plus there’s an undercurrent of respect (she calls him Captain, he calls her Queen, not Evil Queen) despite their willingness to betray each other. A turning point was Hook’s reaction in SSTR to Regina’s goodbye speech to Henry. He is watching her and he then says that line to Charming in that sad, emotional way about the things we do for our children. Plus, Lana who plays Regina thought (before actually seeing how Hook would be portrayed in OUAT specifically) that Hook could be interesting for Regina. So the actress was thinking another villain type might be fun for Regina at least in concept (but to be clear, again, it was not her saying how she had been directed to act, or script based or anything). It’s kind of a far in the future thing about making Regina happy by pairing her with someone who can understand her pain and darkness without judging her (like Snow does) for it.

There will always have to be some drama in any relationship of course, so if someone wants to pick apart a pairing, there will always be material to do so, because writers want to create tension, characters need to grow and change and scenes can be ambiguous. All you can do in figuring out whether someone really thinks a ship is interesting is ask what is it you see here? You still may not see it or like it, but you might see enough to see why someone else could like it even if you do not or adamantly opposed to liking it.

All that Glitters–good points. They did invite comparison so it is hard to avoid–but there’s a difference between comparing and contrasting fairly and as I said, trying to shut down anything that isn’t 100% supportive of one’s ship and going overboard with statements to undermine the competing ship. This forum is good about not doing that for the most part–but out on Tumblr land it is the wild wild west of people doing exactly that.

I’ll try to read the Fighting for Love thing later, sounds interesting. I’d already been puzzling over Charming’s statement in What Happened to Frederick that you can’t fight for what doesn’t exist, as well as Belle’s attitude in the bar after being kicked out. They get wrapped up pretty quick in an episode though–they pass their tests and learn to fight. Sf view would be that Neal’s test is ongoing–that he is going to have his realization, but CS point of view is Neal failed his test already. S3 should be interesting to see what they do to bear out one idea or the other. When I have time (was mid in this post when it said a new post was up with the analysis) I’ll read it.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[AllThatGlitters]

Well I had a response but then I ran into technical difficulties. 👿

I agree with your stating that if someone wants to pick apart a pairing there is always material. Everything can be interpreted for or against a ship.

I think it is great when someone explains another pairing in a logical argument. I often try to take off my shipper hat and analyze the situation.

Find me on tumblr: http://allthatglittersonce.tumblr.com

[MysteryKat25]

KFChimera thank you for your posts. I know I’ve been extremely guilty of ranting more about the anti-SF things as of late than pouring over the same details for CS because I needed to get it out to people who understand what I’m feeling (aka, the CS people in the CS thread). I’ll agree overall it should be more positive and once I figure out how to layout what I’m wanting to do with the analysis on rewatch I will definitely try to leave it more in that direction. (I’m planning on studying Snowing, SF, CS, and Millian to see how they’ve set everything up in more detail, like the lists that Surayya made of parallels) 🙂

Believe it or not I’ve been extremely open-minded about Neal / SwanFire in the past, I just have some issues with him in regards to Emma. I adore young Bae and keep *wanting* him to do something that makes me more torn but the more we get, the stronger CS becomes for me and I just don’t see SF having as much setup.

I’ve been attempting (badly it seems) to compare/contrast and not just GO CS! constantly and explain WHY I have such issues/what I need them to work on if they want to go that route. I want to be torn, especially since Emma will likely be, and so far that hasn’t been accomplished. If they want me to root for SF, the SHOW needs to give me something to work with! I’ve been asking that for ages!

What I mostly meant on the “If this is the set-up for true love on this show and CaptainSwan isn’t…then everything we ever knew is a lie and it’s all meaningless. Cause I just don’t understand…at all.” is that with so much set-up for CS (all the parallels, camera angles, quotes, etc etc) I will not remotely understand if it’s all for naught based on everything else with every other couple we have seen on the show thus far. I just want to understand FROM THE SHOW! I used the Lost example because I didn’t get the ship I *wanted* but I at least *saw* the set-up for the one that I didn’t want which ended up happening.

Basically I *WANT* to understand / root for her whoever does end up being Emma’s true love and I want to see *where it comes from on the show*. I just want to understand, through the set-up of the show, on-screen, where a relationship I’m supposed to root for is coming from and right now, I don’t see actual set-up for one but I do see it for the other.

I’ve looked, I get why it’s a nice story, I see ways that they *could* choose to go about making it happen and explain a lot of the issues I have away (and I do want him to become more likable and make up for some of it, I really do, the young Bae I adore is in there somewhere!). I just have seen a lot of set-up within the show for CS and not nearly as much for SF so that was my point with that.

I agree this isn’t a discussion thread and I do read some SF stuff from time to time and ultimately would love to understand what they’re seeing that I’m not set-up-wise. I’m gonna pay super close attention to both couples on the rewatch analysis I’m planning on doing later this summer but as much as the story *idea* can be worked with, the actual *set-up* (so far…) leans in a different direction.

I can see why that quote took on a life of its own here and it does sound overly dramatic and for that I apologize. It wouldn’t kill the show for me or anything like that. I just would not understand at all because of the way they’ve set everything up so far. Story vs set-up is a big thing with OUAT, they parallel things for a reason, wording is almost always important etc etc. While I get that they could set up CS so fully in order to break down Emma’s walls and get her ready for love again, I don’t see how it all just disappears and she ends up with someone they don’t have the set-up there for within the framing of the show. It would render all of the parallels etc irrelevant which brings down the rest of the framework. Of course this is still “as of yet” so technically there’s always time to give Neal a very slow burn to catch up in the parallel / camera angle / quote department but nothing we have seen so far suggests that.

With the triangle coming up very soon it would make more sense to me if BOTH men had been paralleled and quoted and had camera angles out to wazoo but I haven’t seen that yet. I’ll be looking closer on my series rewatch so we’ll see what happens then. I get why Emma will be torn, but from a storytelling perspective it seems rather lopsided headed into the triangle from a viewing perspective.

So…sorry for derailing the thread into such depths of negative territory. This is a CS thread where we can rant about anything relating to our pairing and I sometimes take that particular tangent a bit too far but it usually comes from needing to vent after seeing SO much hatred and/or blind/non-logical arguments.

I do the same for CS stuff if people start celebrating too early because nothing is set in stone and they’re all tricky with their wording so gotta take absolutely everything with a grain of salt and while I remain cautiously optimistic, based again on the things we’ve seen that are tangible within the show, neither side can definitively say their ship will happen, much less anytime soon.

I can play devil’s advocate on most things so I just want to understand from within the show where it’s coming from. As long as I can understand and see it and it’s not coming from left field when they do such an excellent job of setting up true love on this show, I’ll be fine. As I said I’ll pay more attention to the set-up but I feel like a lot of things have been taken as fact lately (by everyone) that on second look at the wording or the scenes in question, what we feel about them may or may not be what they were actually saying.

As for this:

KFChimera wrote:

You still may not see it or like it, but you might see enough to see why someone else could like it even if you do not or adamantly opposed to liking it.

I completely agree. I make a point of being open to everything (this show is full of shades of grey, nobody is exempt) and I do get the appeal of Neal. I want him to do well and be happy and make up for the past too! I have major issues regarding his relationship with Emma (at this point) but I also see the sweetness and why others love that pairing even though it wouldn’t be my first choice. I’ll even be open to SF *if* they deal with the issues rather than sweeping them under the rug.

As long as I can see where it’s coming from and it fits with everything else they’ve shown us I’ll be fine. (I may still hate it for years, ie: the pairings on Lost, but as long as I see/get it then I’ll learn to live with it). I’m sure regardless of who Emma chooses in the end, the writers WANT us to root for them to be happy.

The show is all about True Love and Hope…I don’t think they want to kill that by having Emma end up in a relationship they can’t defend (ie: someone out of left field or someone who has been exceptionally cruel to her 24/7 or something like that). She actually does have 2 good options, they just need a bit of work – and so does she – before she can get to the point of actually having her true love, whoever that may be.

It’s one of the biggest reasons I had for my rant in the shipper wars thread because I see so much hatred for so many characters / pairings that I know others love and the hatred isn’t usually directed at the characters or the ships but at the PEOPLE shipping them. It’s extremely aggrivating to be the only person in the room who loves what you love and watch everyone tear down your character and call you names for liking them. It’s one of the reasons these individual shipper threads are great because we have a place to go that’s a safe haven, surrounded mostly by people who share your opinion and not ripping you to shreds for liking it.

There is a VERY big difference between not liking a character / pairing & being rude to the PEOPLE who ship something. Huge pet peeve of mine. I can defend almost any character we’ve seen to a degree and get why people are such devoted fans of that character/pairing, whether they’re my cup of tea or not. Some of my best friends around here ship entirely different things than I do. OUAT is a melting pot and I love it!

It would be nice if shipper threads were all rainbows and butterflies and GO ____!!! but that’s never going to happen. We all have good days and bad days, days where we’re super excited about what we’re seeing and days when we’re legitimately concerned for our pairing and we need to get those things out. I’ve found this thread to be immensely helpful, especially after a bad day because others will point out something I’ve missed or forgotten that gives me reason to hope and believe again. I’m sure that goes for any pairing.

I’m not sure if the anti-Hook stuff happens in the SF threads around here. No idea. I do know it happens TONS in the livechat and other places that I’ve taken to staying away from because of it so I understand both sides of it. It’s not a very nice coin! That being said, I don’t think any shipper thread will ever completely sway somebody one way or another regardless. It might help people understand a bit better whether they see it or not but even in the most positive of threads people will still say you’re “delusional” if you don’t like what they like or don’t explain away something that they have.

I noticed this a lot in the last livechats because people would ask if something was proven on the show and they’d get 2 different answers: shippers would say yes it was, others would say technically not yet (which is true…) and then get yelled at and told to get over their ship! I’m BIG on proving things on the show. Make it impossible for me to get around, not easily swept under the rug and I’m good to go.

KFChimera – I’ll agree to a degree on your point about the testing of characters. I’m sure SF people will say that Neal’s test is ongoing but not all CS people are so narrowed in on Hook that we all think Neal has “failed” already – I’ve said many times in many places that he’s got a LONG way to go for me. Is it impossible? No. Do I think people are too quick to sweep the issues with him under the rug and forget about them and want Emma to just get over them super fast too? Yes.

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[kfchimera]

Now that I’ve read Obigirl’s analysis on Fighting for Love, I still am puzzling about the test–failed or not? Neal honestly believed he had no shot with Emma, THAT is why he moved on. That is why he did not seek her out. Like Charming, willing to risk DYING to reunite Katherine with her love, he’s thinking “I can’t fight for what doesn’t exist.” Unlike Charming though, he’s struggling with Tamara-Siren and along comes Emma and QuackAttack Body Slams her. So we don’t get that proof positive that he would have figured it out, would have found that certainty of true love without Emma intervening. Emma’s magic also did not save or heal him–so those were choices the writers made that leave a very open door for CS.

So as I said, fighting isn’t the only theme I saw. I also saw sacrificing for love. I’ll explain this and combine it with a response to something Suraya said.

@Surayya wrote:

However that hate/bashing doesn’t drive me deeper into CS- I let my own interpretation of the story/show do that & nothing else.

What I meant was, when I see one sided things like that poster a few pages back implying Hook is the only one who’s “come back” for Emma, it just triggers me to start thinking of all the things that are misleading about this statement as well as other statements that are too one-sided. Leaving aside Hook’s motivations and the bits on August and Neal–how could anyone fault Snowing for putting Baby Emma in the wardrobe when the choice was do that or let her be killed by the Queen’s men? Their original plan was for Snow to go with Emma. We aren’t supposed to infer lack of love for Emma by their actions–we are supposed to infer they loved her very much and had a very hard choice to make. Season 1 hammers this home a lot–sometimes people who love you have to leave you to give you your best shot at a better life. It isn’t that they didn’t fight hard enough for you–but some fights are too stacked to win (without some miracle plot armor or something).

Whatever pain Emma faced as an abandoned child in horrible foster systems, it is something she works through over the course of Season 2. It’s not an instant forgiveness and trust, but it is something that takes time to build, but Emma understands intellectually their sacrifice long before she does so emotionally. Snow didn’t “come back” for Emma–but she was willing to sacrifice being with Charming for her (though the plan fell through), and did sacrifice that when she came after Emma when she jumped into a portal when Emma was falling through. So in my mind, while I might sometimes find Snow to be a bit dramatic/sanctimonious, there ought to be no doubt that Emma loves them and they love her at the end of the finale. Emma isn’t that abandoned loner anymore, just waiting for someone to choose her, to fight for her. She knows her parents would die for her.

So when someone tries to imply Hook is the only one in Emma’s life who has fought for her, it sort of undermines the huge sacrifices Snowing were willing and did make for Emma. Fighting for love is not the only way to show true love. Sacrifice counts too in this story. Sacrifice, like Henry eating the apple he knew was poisoned to prevent Emma from doing so and to prove to her, that what he said was true. You could, if you wanted, rail on Henry for putting Emma through such a scare when he could have just tossed the turnover out. If he had though, he wouldn’t have had the hero moment, and Emma might not have ever believed enough to break the curse. Henry didn’t eat the turnover TO scare her to make her sad or out of a death wish of his own, but to convince her and save her.

Now when it comes to Hook–he has sacrificed his chance of revenge in order to find Henry without any hesitation. That to me is much more touching than this “he came back!” after he ran away in the first place by stealing what he thought was everyone’s only hope of survival. It is huge character growth for Hook.

What would it say about Hook if he were unwilling to make a sacrifice like Snowing? It’s one thing to say the romantic hero won’t have to make the sacrifice, that the plot will resolve before the price is paid, but he has to be shown as unselfishness enough to be willing to pay it. Preferably without some huge scaring cost to Emma of course, that to me is the biggest hurdle for what Neal did. Snowing pretty clearly were out of options, but the plot does not make it quite as clear that the same was true for Neal.

@MysteryKat25 wrote:

KFChimera thank you for your posts. I know I’ve been extremely guilty of ranting more about the anti-SF things as of late than pouring over the same details for CS because I needed to get it out to people who understand what I’m feeling (aka, the CS people in the CS thread).

That’s perfectly understandable–having a safe place to feel like you can just post your opinion without having to worry about defending every word choice /comparison, being able to preach to the choir as it were, is of course the positive point of shipper threads. No, it can’t always be just pro-this, as in order to explain fully how you feel, sometimes you do need to just rant/vent and point out all the flaws you kept to yourself at other times. I do understand that–but of course what I was saying is that sometimes that leads to the impression that you HAVE to preach identically or you should keep quiet or you are “raining on people’s parades” even if all you are trying to do is say no, I can’t quite agree with you on this piece here, but I do here. It starts to feel very “you’re either with us on every point, or you’re against us.” Which given the shipper wars posts seems rather contradictory to what I would think would be the attitude people would want to promote. I absolutely agree, it is far worse to have people actively ripping you personally as a poster to shreds, calling names etc. Yes, it can be aggravating to be in the minority and feel like your voice is lost.

@Mysterykat wrote:

KFChimera – I’ll agree to a degree on your point about the testing of characters. I’m sure SF people will say that Neal’s test is ongoing but not all CS people are so narrowed in on Hook that we all think Neal has “failed” already – I’ve said many times in many places that he’s got a LONG way to go for me. Is it impossible? No. Do I think people are too quick to sweep the issues with him under the rug and forget about them and want Emma to just get over them super fast too? Yes.

I agree with that, too. Of course not everyone has the exact same opinion on every point! It just gets back to how sometimes it can feel like there’s a consensus to something when its really only one or two posters actually saying similar things and maybe there’s many more who haven’t logged in or read it, or the thread shoots past so no one else ever responds. Live chat of course, well even rudeness aside, it wouldn’t be my thing –too fast not enough time to reflect and think.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

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