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I am not bashing, just comparing and contrasting to explain WHY I love this particular moment of Hook’s so much, so please bear with me.
I was asked yesterday to explain my issues with Neal without mentioning CS and one of the things that I put on my list was “mocking Emma’s ability” – he told her outright that he never believed in her lying ability.
What I didn’t think about at the time (because initially just the mocking of it was what bugged me) was the fact that he did this IN FRONT OF HENRY. Emma has always made a point of trying to be kind to Henry about Regina even though there are obvious issues there, because she knows that Henry loves her. Neal undermined Emma in front of Henry. So glad I remember now why that scene bugged me so much.
Emma’s ability is the one thing she has held onto her whole life that she prides herself on,as well as one of the first things she told Henry about herself, and he did that in front of their son (and she was RIGHT!)
I know Neal is new to the whole parent thing (and I’m sure he’ll get better at it with time, just like Emma) but so was Emma last season and she didn’t undermine Regina to Henry nearly as much (if anybody did, it was Henry himself but even after all of the EQ talk he was adament not to let anything happen to her and Emma has always gone along with that, even when it would be so much easier to let Regina die).
Emma respects the relationships that others have with her son because they’re a part of his life and it’s necessary to do so. It’s bad enough it showed a lack of respect of Emma (especially knowing that she prided herself on that and he was laughing at it and saying it was cute and all but he never actually believed her – which means he just went along with it back then too, grrrrrrr *I really want to like you but sometimes you make it so difficult!*) but to do it in front of Henry?
This boils down to one of the things I really really love about Hook in ASOTM – he waited until everyone walked away to have a PRIVATE moment with Emma and ask her what was really going on and get to the important details of things. He didn’t just write off what she was thinking or feeling, he asked and he didn’t judge what she said.
Respect is a big thing for me and Hook showed enough respect for her to wait until others (including Henry) were out of earshot to find out what she was thinking. He wasn’t doing anything undermining & directed specifically at her (he criticized the PLAN of the entire group), he didn’t argue with her after what she said to him and waited for privacy to ask for details and get down to what was really on her mind. He certainly didn’t try to upset her relationship with her son – which is what can happen when separated parents put the other one down in front of the kid. (I say separated because contrary to popular belief they were never married, Rumple is not Emma’s father-in-law etc. etc.)
Again I like Neal, I want him to do better and I think over time he will. I just really appreciated that Hook had the decency to not undermine Emma in front of Henry and that he wanted a private conversation.
The only private conversations we’ve really seen for Emma & Neal, present day have basically resulted in “ha, you’re jealous” with a grin or laughter, or you’re wrong and I never believed your ability. I want to like you gosh darn it, make it easier! These two seriously need to talk no matter which way the triangle goes but it’s hard to root for someone who is laughing at someone else’s pain and bringing their relationship with their child into question when he’s been around all of 5 minutes. >.< The grinning like an idiot thing is reminding me last season of August & Ruby. I feel like Pinocchio was so excited that Ruby was flirting with him because the last time he saw her he was a kid (who totally could have had a crush on Red, who knows) and it felt to me in that scene like he felt like a little kid again getting his wish. I’ve said it before but I feel like Bae was 14 for soooo long that he’s had a little trouble adjusting in certain areas but there’s definitely room for him to grow and get better about stuff (being an instant parent to Henry is sure to help with that, especially since his initial gut reaction was be a better dad than Rumple was). Emma was a pretty strong, independent woman when she entered SB but has grown leaps and bounds having Henry in her life. I hope the same will be true of Neal in that department (and I think it will be).
[adrotate group="5"]Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
I was asked yesterday to explain my issues with Neal without mentioning CS and one of the things that I put on my list was “mocking Emma’s ability” – he told her outright that he never believed in her lying ability.
What I didn’t think about at the time (because initially just the mocking of it was what bugged me) was the fact that he did this IN FRONT OF HENRY. Emma has always made a point of trying to be kind to Henry about Regina even though there are obvious issues there, because she knows that Henry loves her. Neal undermined Emma in front of Henry. So glad I remember now why that scene bugged me so much.
Emma’s ability is the one thing she has held onto her whole life that she prides herself on,as well as one of the first things she told Henry about herself, and he did that in front of their son (and she was RIGHT!)
Yup.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Emma respects the relationships that others have with her son because they’re a part of his life and it’s necessary to do so. It’s bad enough it showed a lack of respect of Emma (especially knowing that she prided herself on that and he was laughing at it and saying it was cute and all but he never actually believed her – which means he just went along with it back then too, grrrrrrr *I really want to like you but sometimes you make it so difficult!*) but to do it in front of Henry?
Exactly.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
This boils down to one of the things I really really love about Hook in ASOTM – he waited until everyone walked away to have a PRIVATE moment with Emma and ask her what was really going on and get to the important details of things. He didn’t just write off what she was thinking or feeling, he asked and he didn’t judge what she said.
This post keeps on getting better and better. There needs to be a nodding smilie in this forum.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Respect is a big thing for me and Hook showed enough respect for her to wait until others (including Henry) were out of earshot to find out what she was thinking. He wasn’t doing anything undermining & directed specifically at her (he criticized the PLAN of the entire group), he didn’t argue with her after what she said to him and waited for privacy to ask for details and get down to what was really on her mind. He certainly didn’t try to upset her relationship with her son – which is what can happen when separated parents put the other one down in front of the kid. (I say separated because contrary to popular belief they were never married, Rumple is not Emma’s father-in-law etc. etc.)
LET ME LOVE YOU!!!
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Again I like Neal, I want him to do better and I think over time he will. I just really appreciated that Hook had the decency to not undermine Emma in front of Henry and that he wanted a private conversation.
I am not a fan of Neal at this point, but who knows, if his character actually gets better later, I might but as of now I could honestly care less.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
The only private conversations we’ve really seen for Emma & Neal, present day have basically resulted in “ha, you’re jealous” with a grin or laughter, or you’re wrong and I never believed your ability. I want to like you gosh darn it, make it easier! These two seriously need to talk no matter which way the triangle goes but it’s hard to root for someone who is laughing at someone else’s pain and bringing their relationship with their child into question when he’s been around all of 5 minutes. >.<
Exactly.
Kat, please don’t feel like you have to justify your opinions & take on SF/Neal vs CS/Hook as ‘not bashing’- you haven’t bashed anyone or been propagandist (in the negative sense of the word) in any of your posts- no one has from what I can see- we all tend to discuss the facts & our interpretations of them, not make stuff up to knock other suitors.
If this thread is going to be reduced to people not being able to freely discuss the facts & their interpretation of them relating to the ship, for fear of stepping on the toes of other shippers; then maybe I need to leave this thread 🙁 Which I don’t want to do, this thread & the shippers init have been AWESOME, so I resent someone implying there is bashing or propaganda going on, when there hasn’t been. That kind of rubbish already goes on enough in general threads against our ship 🙁 This is supposed to be a safe place to ship CS, along with everything else that goes along with shipping CS without worrying about that kind of rubbish.
Personally I think if people ship other parings for Emma, they are just going to have leave their other shipping hats in another room before stepping into a CS thread & getting their toes walked on. While I only ship CS, If I did ship SF too, I would not go into a SF thread & get annoyed with SF shippers, when Hook is continually being cast & discussed in a unfavorable light, IF he had actually done nasty stuff to Emma, that left her with long term emotional damage, since that is what will be thoroughly discussed in comparisons- it is NOT propaganda or bashing.
Thanks for the support guys! Love my CaptainSwan shipmates and I am determined that this place gets back to being the safe haven it should be for us (goodness knows we could use it!)
Moving on…
I’ve been looking over transcripts (I’ll deal with screenshots etc later on, for now just looking at the quotes) and I’ve found some good stuff lately. Lots of quotes, coming right up! I’m only on 1×06 so far but looked up a couple others that related to points I wanted to make at this particular time.
One sweet thing I had nearly forgotten about with Charming: “What’s 28 years when you have eternal love?” His faith in love is astounding and timeless. He will ALWAYS find Snow and he knew exactly how long he’d be away from her should she go through the wardrobe with Emma. Might I also point out that 28 is far more than the 10-11 somebody else knew about and didn’t have trust in overcoming? David almost made it out of SB after breaking up with MM and trying to leave town, got his memories back as Charming, STILL KNEW all the bad stuff he did as David, but knew he had to go find Snow and that they could overcome anything because their love is THAT STRONG. Just saying. <3 his faith in true love.
Emma: “Telling someone their soulmate is in a coma is probably not helpful. Not having a happy ending is painful enough but giving someone unrealistic hope is far worse.” – Poor Emma 🙁 She’s been through so much!
Graham offering Emma a job and letting her be a part of something: “Well, here’s your chance to see it up close. There’s dental. Why don’t you think about it and stay awhile?” Awwww *sniff*
Of course there’s this classic Emma moment which I LOVE: “People are going to tell you who you are your whole life. You just gotta punch back and say ‘No, this is who I am.’ You want people to look at you differently? Make them. You want to change things you are going to have to go out there and change them yourself because there are no Fairy Godmothers in this world.” *sniff* GO EMMA! (And she didn’t even KNOW yet just how many people were telling her who she was!)
Also from the Cinderella episode, Emma: “Sean, if you want to come, come. Stop letting other people make decisions for you.” You tell ’em!
Even Rumple can see how strong she is from time to time & compliments her awesomeness: “I like you Ms. Swan. You’re not afraid of me and that’s either cocky or presumptuous. Either way I’d rather have you on my side.” I <3 people who appreciate her awesomeness like Hook, Graham, & Rumple. They compliment her rather than tear her down or treat her like a child *cough Snow I love you but your little girl is not so little anymore. Glad you're starting to notice that*
This is one of my favorite quotes from Harry Potter and I think it applies greatly to OUAT.
“It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.”
Choice has been a recurring theme and is very important to many of the characters. The word is used often and in pouring over even the first few episodes, I’ve found a lot that helps to parallel CaptainSwan and why it will happen.
For one thing? The Charmings are BIG on choice:
David: “Should be doesn’t matter. Whoever married Kathryn, it’s not me. I didn’t choose her. I’m choosing you. I know you feel it, I can tell.” – Sounds a little bit like Henry there doesn’t he? 🙂
Shepherd David: “When I marry I want it to be because I choose to spend the rest of my life with someone I love.”
David: “With someone I didn’t choose! The man who chose that life, whoever married Kathryn, is gone.”
David: “But if you choose this – if you choose us – you know where I’ll be.”
Emma: “Well he left her. It’s one thing to say that he wants you but it’s another to actively make a choice and now he has. That’s all you can ask for.” – THIS, a million times THIS!
* Charming chose Snow when it would have been easier and more self-preservation
* David chose MM when it would have been easier and neither would have been so vilified (even if it was all a fake obligation)
* Hook chose Emma when it would have been easier and more self-preservation (twice!)Snowing & CaptainSwan parallels <3
And of course, the icing on the cake:
Cora: “You chose her…and the consequences of that decision.”
Now, in regards to the last one, I do acknowledge that Rumple clearly ships SF. However, he is also biased. He was right to tell Neal that he can’t love another while he holds a torch for Emma much like King George spelled out to Charming about the Snowing + Abigail triangle. George wanted his money from Midas so in that case he wanted Charming to get over Snow. Rumple wants Neal to get Tamara out of his system so that SF can happen but ultimately wants his son to be happy and he knows that Neal still clearly has feelings for Emma, I get that.
However, the fact that CORA said it (as much as I despise the woman) is important because it is a far more un-biased comment. She doesn’t want Hook working for the person trying to stop her from getting to her daughter, she wants Hook on her side and she’s disappointed that he chose Emma. She has no personal stake in who he ends up with, just what it means for getting her way right now and she’s acknowledging that this is a problem for her.
Going back to my earlier argument: in the Tamara – Neal – Emma triangle Neal *NEVER* chose Emma. He chose Tamara down to the last second until she was no longer an option for him. Then and only then did he profess to wanting Emma and regretting it all these years. Tamara did not have him under some kind of spell, she just duped him for ages (poor thing has been through enough and didn’t need to be treated like that, but Emma did try to warn him repeatedly and he mocked her for it).
As to the regret thing we’ve seen that many times:
* Ruth & her husband (still no name grr) gave up James and said her husband regretted it every day til he died (did nothing)
* Milah gave up Bae and Hook said she regretted it every day til she died (did nothing)
* Snowing gave up Emma fully expecting her to find them and reunite (accomplished)
* Emma gave up Henry to give him his best chance and he found her and they were reunited (accomplished)
* Rumple gave up Bae (CLEARLY regretted it and has done something about it even though it’s not necessarily in the right way…; accomplished)
* Neal gave up Emma (twice: once for the good of everyone and to find her family; once for their son); regretted leaving her every day (did nothing); is now back in her life because she owed Rumple a favor (still chose someone else til the last second)If / when Henry gets married and has kids he better stick around cause both sides of his family CLEARLY have leaving people issues.
I’m not sure after all that how it’s not clearly set up in a specific way. Nor am I clear on how people think that Neal’s #1 priority is Emma when he puts FAMILY in general above everything else. MRJ even said in one of his interviews that family is what’s important to Bae right now. Emma is a part of it, but she isn’t the only part and I do think they will always care about each other and work their issues out, at least for Henry’s sake
We’ve seen the sacrifice thing a number of times:
* Bae was willing to go fight in the ogre wars rather than running off with Rumple adding to his cowardice
* Bae considered the Darlings to be his family and sacrificed himself and was taken to NL
* Neal sacrificed his love of Emma by letting her go to jail and cutting off all contact so she could fulfill her destiny/find her family (but knew how to find her and didn’t because he was afraid and didn’t think she’d forgive him)
* Neal sacrificed being with Emma again because he didn’t want Henry to grow up like they did (orphans)He’s been putting Henry first (one of the few things I do love about him at the moment) and so has Emma. Her only comment about Neal other than him being “gone” was asking how she would tell Henry and stating why she couldn’t let Regina die.
I realize that was a lot but I really love quotes and there have been a LOT of good ones about choice and it’s one of the things that show how similar Emma & Charming can be at times (not that there aren’t a lot of similarities between Snow & Emma as well, but I love the father/daughter stuff and how strong-willed they are when it comes to love.) Plus I think choice (and Emma’s comments regarding it) really help to show why in the end she’ll choose Hook. Happy shipping! *passes out cookies*
Edited to add:
* Emma tells Graham he’s “observant”
* Hook tells Emma she’s “quite perceptive”😀
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
This isn’t CS related, but I just had share anyway …. Its the pilot script for Once!
http://www.zen134237.zen.co.uk/Once_Upon_A_Time_1x01_-_Pilot.pdf@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Thanks for the support guys! Love my CaptainSwan shipmates and I am determined that this place gets back to being the safe haven it should be for us (goodness knows we could use it!)
Moving on…
I’ve been looking over transcripts (I’ll deal with screenshots etc later on, for now just looking at the quotes) and I’ve found some good stuff lately. Lots of quotes, coming right up! I’m only on 1×06 so far but looked up a couple others that related to points I wanted to make at this particular time.
One sweet thing I had nearly forgotten about with Charming: “What’s 28 years when you have eternal love?” His faith in love is astounding and timeless. He will ALWAYS find Snow and he knew exactly how long he’d be away from her should she go through the wardrobe with Emma. Might I also point out that 28 is far more than the 10-11 somebody else knew about and didn’t have trust in overcoming? David almost made it out of SB after breaking up with MM and trying to leave town, got his memories back as Charming, STILL KNEW all the bad stuff he did as David, but knew he had to go find Snow and that they could overcome anything because their love is THAT STRONG. Just saying. <3 his faith in true love.
Very true …. & who else do we know that holds onto his love that strongly 😉
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Emma:
Graham offering Emma a job and letting her be a part of something: “Well, here’s your chance to see it up close. There’s dental. Why don’t you think about it and stay awhile?” Awwww *sniff*Oh, the feels! I miss Graham.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Even Rumple can see how strong she is from time to time & compliments her awesomeness: “I like you Ms. Swan. You’re not afraid of me and that’s either cocky or presumptuous. Either way I’d rather have you on my side.” I <3 people who appreciate her awesomeness like Hook, Graham, & Rumple. They compliment her rather than tear her down or treat her like a child *cough Snow I love you but your little girl is not so little anymore. Glad you're starting to notice that*
Very true- on both points 😉
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Choice has been a recurring theme and is very important to many of the characters. The word is used often and in pouring over even the first few episodes, I’ve found a lot that helps to parallel CaptainSwan and why it will happen.
For one thing? The Charmings are BIG on choice:
David: “Should be doesn’t matter. Whoever married Kathryn, it’s not me. I didn’t choose her. I’m choosing you. I know you feel it, I can tell.” – Sounds a little bit like Henry there doesn’t he? 🙂
Shepherd David: “When I marry I want it to be because I choose to spend the rest of my life with someone I love.”
David: “With someone I didn’t choose! The man who chose that life, whoever married Kathryn, is gone.”
David: “But if you choose this – if you choose us – you know where I’ll be.”
Emma: “Well he left her. It’s one thing to say that he wants you but it’s another to actively make a choice and now he has. That’s all you can ask for.” – THIS, a million times THIS!
* Charming chose Snow when it would have been easier and more self-preservation
* David chose MM when it would have been easier and neither would have been so vilified (even if it was all a fake obligation)
* Hook chose Emma when it would have been easier and more self-preservation (twice!)Snowing & CaptainSwan parallels <3
And of course, the icing on the cake:
Cora: “You chose her…and the consequences of that decision.”
This a million times- I cant agree with you more there!
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Now, in regards to the last one, I do acknowledge that Rumple clearly ships SF. However, he is also biased. He was right to tell Neal that he can’t love another while he holds a torch for Emma much like King George spelled out to Charming about the Snowing + Abigail triangle. George wanted his money from Midas so in that case he wanted Charming to get over Snow. Rumple wants Neal to get Tamara out of his system so that SF can happen but ultimately wants his son to be happy and he knows that Neal still clearly has feelings for Emma, I get that.
However, the fact that CORA said it (as much as I despise the woman) is important because it is a far more un-biased comment. She doesn’t want Hook working for the person trying to stop her from getting to her daughter, she wants Hook on her side and she’s disappointed that he chose Emma. She has no personal stake in who he ends up with, just what it means for getting her way right now and she’s acknowledging that this is a problem for her.
Very good point.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Going back to my earlier argument: in the Tamara – Neal – Emma triangle Neal *NEVER* chose Emma. He chose Tamara down to the last second until she was no longer an option for him. Then and only then did he profess to wanting Emma and regretting it all these years. Tamara did not have him under some kind of spell, she just duped him for ages (poor thing has been through enough and didn’t need to be treated like that, but Emma did try to warn him repeatedly and he mocked her for it).
As to the regret thing we’ve seen that many times:
* Ruth & her husband (still no name grr) gave up James and said her husband regretted it every day til he died (did nothing)
* Milah gave up Bae and Hook said she regretted it every day til she died (did nothing)
* Snowing gave up Emma fully expecting her to find them and reunite (accomplished)
* Emma gave up Henry to give him his best chance and he found her and they were reunited (accomplished)
* Rumple gave up Bae (CLEARLY regretted it and has done something about it even though it’s not necessarily in the right way…; accomplished)
* Neal gave up Emma (twice: once for the good of everyone and to find her family; once for their son); regretted leaving her every day (did nothing); is now back in her life because she owed Rumple a favor (still chose someone else til the last second)If / when Henry gets married and has kids he better stick around cause both sides of his family CLEARLY have leaving people issues.
I’m not sure after all that how it’s not clearly set up in a specific way. Nor am I clear on how people think that Neal’s #1 priority is Emma when he puts FAMILY in general above everything else. MRJ even said in one of his interviews that family is what’s important to Bae right now. Emma is a part of it, but she isn’t the only part and I do think they will always care about each other and work their issues out, at least for Henry’s sake
Agreed (seeing it listed like that- there are so many abandonment’s in that family!) & LOL about Henry.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
We’ve seen the sacrifice thing a number of times:
* Bae was willing to go fight in the ogre wars rather than running off with Rumple adding to his cowardice
* Bae considered the Darlings to be his family and sacrificed himself and was taken to NL
* Neal sacrificed his love of Emma by letting her go to jail and cutting off all contact so she could fulfill her destiny/find her family (but knew how to find her and didn’t because he was afraid and didn’t think she’d forgive him)
* Neal sacrificed being with Emma again because he didn’t want Henry to grow up like they did (orphans)He’s been putting Henry first (one of the few things I do love about him at the moment) and so has Emma. Her only comment about Neal other than him being “gone” was asking how she would tell Henry and stating why she couldn’t let Regina die.
I realize that was a lot but I really love quotes and there have been a LOT of good ones about choice and it’s one of the things that show how similar Emma & Charming can be at times (not that there aren’t a lot of similarities between Snow & Emma as well, but I love the father/daughter stuff and how strong-willed they are when it comes to love.) Plus I think choice (and Emma’s comments regarding it) really help to show why in the end she’ll choose Hook. Happy shipping! *passes out cookies*
Edited to add:
* Emma tells Graham he’s “observant”
* Hook tells Emma she’s “quite perceptive”😀
Very good point about Emma & Charming being very similar & also a very point on why she would too.
Nice catch on the Emma parings parallel 🙂@Surayya wrote:
I resent someone implying there is bashing or propaganda going on, when there hasn’t been. That kind of rubbish already goes on enough in general threads against our ship 🙁 This is supposed to be a safe place to ship CS, along with everything else that goes along with shipping CS without worrying about that kind of rubbish.
Suraya, given your stated confusion about the meaning of a previous post of mine, are you implying that I implied there is bashing? I don’t think anyone did that, and my statements were the closest there was. Here is what I actually said:
@KFChimera wrote:
I feel this thread is getting bogged down with almost propaganda style reasoning about what makes SF bad, rather than what everyone likes and hopes for in a CS pairing. I half expect to see a poster like “Neal: Wrong about Tamara. Wrong for Emma.” straight out of a manipulative political add tactic.
Notice, I’m talking about the reasoning people are using, and did not equate that to being rude and bashing or insults at the viewer-to-viewer level. Propaganda simply means statements designed to influence the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. That is not equivalent to “bashing”. I used the word poster in that post to refer to a graphic I think, that someone linked, not the person who posted. That could have been confusing I suppose. Many statements on a shipping thread ARE one-sided, so yes, there is propaganda in that sense. I never said there has to be equal time, but, I did say that for me, the heavily one-sided posts, are not as inspiring, though I did compliment your parallel lists and something else I forget about how that was the sort of thing that moves me to like CS. I suppose I don’t mind one-sided if it is positive stuff. Others responded to say they need to say negative things about characters (but never the viewers with opinions) sometimes to explain what they like about CS/Hook/Emma, and I agreed that’s fair enough. If you were referring to my posts, then you are bringing the topic back up in a very negative way, and reading into what I said in a very negative way as well–but I do not resent you for it. I am just too weary to continue discussing/explaining further, when my main point was that I wanted to see more fun, positive posts. You may feel like you need this space to rant and vent and that is fine–I’m only one person expressing the opinion of what I like reading.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Has everybody read this?
http://tvline.com/2013/05/30/ncis-true-blood-revolution-rookie-blue-burn-notice-spoilers/
This promises more Colin in season 3 which is good enough, but also hints at love interests for Hook. I’m sure Captain Swan would have to have a part in that.
This is so exciting! It’s a real shot in the arm to hold over for the rest of the hiatus.
The topic ‘The Captain Swan thread!’ is closed to new replies.