The Captain Swan thread!

[Epona_610]

Haha, I do just have to make one comment about the script tease and ‘haters’…apparently they are interpreting it as Hook attempting to buy Emma. That is awesome, just because you really have to be out of your mind to get that from the script tease! Those haters….they used to upset me, now they just make my day with their insanity! Probably not the effect they’re looking for, however….

Yeah, I just love that since what he’s saying is actually in support of Emma’s individual rights as a woman! He’s mocking the old-fashioned idea of a woman being “owned” by her father until she’s transferred to a husband.

[Epona_610]

So I just read the first half and sort of skimmed the second half of that meta that Epona linked to and whilst I do agree that CS isn’t rape culture, there are some points I disagree with, mainly within the season 2 stuff.

1. The “When I jab you with my sword, you’ll feel it” line. I can see how that particular line could be interpreted as a little on the sexually threatening side. I’m not saying it is as each individual line doesn’t throw up any “red flags”, however, when it is preceded by the “normally I prefer to do more enjoyable activities with a woman on her back” line, the context it is said in becomes more sexualised. The issue people have with the “When I jab you with my sword, you’ll feel it” line isn’t with the “jab” which the metawriter seems to think, it’s with the “sword”. People are interpreting “sword” as a euphemism for penis. Also the situation that the line was said in wasn’t ideal. It wasn’t a relaxed atmosphere, it was combative, Emma and Hook were battling to “win”, etc. Also I think part of it is to do with the perception of both male and female characters within the media. For example, you are more likely to see women represented as victims of men in the media rather than vice versa. So in a situation where Emma is on her back which is considered a submissive position whilst Killian is “on top” in what is considered the “dominant” position and making the innuendo, I can see why people may see him as being sexually threatening towards Emma. On a side note, the entire Alien film franchise is built on the premise of male rape and sexual threat. It is what makes the films more scary than your average slasher film.

I think the point wasn’t about misinterpreting “jab” or “sword” (obviously a euphemism, yes), more about whether it was about consensual sex or rape. Honestly, I don’t know exactly what that’s supposed to mean–how is that “a bit of advice”? That’s not advice; it’s just a statement.

2. Where did the writer get the idea that Milah worked in a tavern? I don’t recall that being said in-show. Milah spent a lot of her time at the tavern but that’s probably because that was the one place where she wasn’t made to feel like a pariah. Taverns didn’t care who you were so long as you continued to drink and spend your money.

Agreed–I was going to say that when I posted the link, but I didn’t feel like getting into it then. I don’t think she worked in the tavern; she went there to escape her miserable home life.

3. I strongly disagree that “Rumple punishes Hook further by not killing him so Hook decides to remove Belle from him by shooting her in the shoulder”. What Hook did to Belle was just plain wrong. He didn’t just shoot her in the shoulder, he took away her memories, he took away her IDENTITY. I had no problem with Hook stabbing Rumple in 215 (I didn’t like it but I had no problem with it). Rumple wasn’t “punishing” Hook by not killing him, Rumple would’ve happily killed him, Rumple was trying to show Belle that he did have good in him and that she wasn’t wrong. Belle was encouraging Rumple to do the right thing, yeah she may have been more Rumple focussed, but Hook had tried to kill her previously. I noticed in the meta the writer left out the scenes of Hook in Belle’s cell and Hook at the library. If anything, Hook went after Belle unprovoked. Belle hadn’t done anything to Hook so Hook wasn’t actually being “honourable” in his treatment of Belle.

What she’s referring to there is more likely in “The Crocodile” when, after murdering Milah, Rumple tells Killian that death “is not in the cards for you, sonny boy! I want you to suffer like I’ve suffered!” It’s pretty clear throughout most of his early appearances, Hook rather wants to die, but he doesn’t want to go down without having done his best to avenge Milah first.

And I totally agree that he wasn’t being honorable toward Belle at all when he hit and almost killed her in her cell (IMO that’s the worst thing we’ve seen him do) or when he sent her over the town line (after which he, again, expressed a wish to die). The point though wasn’t that those things were okay, just that they weren’t done out of some sense of misogyny or whatever. Rumple murdered the woman he loved, so he wanted to take away the woman Rumple loved–and at least he made sure not to actually kill her at that point even though he nearly did so back before the curse. If Rumple had had someone else he loved…say a male lover, a brother, etc., he would’ve gone after him instead.

I feel that meta kind of tried to whitewash Hook’s past misdeeds a little. I get that the aim of the meta was to prove that Hook doesn’t promote rape-culture and it does achieve that, however it does feel like there is a little whitewashing in there specifically in Hook’s treatment of Belle. We all know I wasn’t Hook’s biggest fan during season 2 but still, he his past misdeeds should be acknowledged alongside Regina’s and Rumple’s.

I probably should’ve lumped this in with the last bit… But anyway, I see what you’re saying, but I suppose for me it’s difficult to compare Rumple and Regina to Hook. He had (to me) the most sympathetic backstory of the three and has committed the least “villainy”. Both of the others have committed multiple (in Regina’s case, many) murders that have had great negative impacts on the show’s protagonists. With Hook, we’ve seen a few attempted or near murders, but nothing close to the scale of the others.

 

[surayya]

I pretty much agree with Epona’s replys

1. The “When I jab you with my sword, you’ll feel it” line. I can see how that particular line could be interpreted as a little on the sexually threatening side. I’m not saying it is as each individual line doesn’t throw up any “red flags”, however, when it is preceded by the “normally I prefer to do more enjoyable activities with a woman on her back” line, the context it is said in becomes more sexualised. The issue people have with the “When I jab you with my sword, you’ll feel it” line isn’t with the “jab” which the metawriter seems to think, it’s with the “sword”. People are interpreting “sword” as a euphemism for penis. Also the situation that the line was said in wasn’t ideal. It wasn’t a relaxed atmosphere, it was combative, Emma and Hook were battling to “win”, etc. Also I think part of it is to do with the perception of both male and female characters within the media. For example, you are more likely to see women represented as victims of men in the media rather than vice versa. So in a situation where Emma is on her back which is considered a submissive position whilst Killian is “on top” in what is considered the “dominant” position and making the innuendo, I can see why people may see him as being sexually threatening towards Emma. On a side note, the entire Alien film franchise is built on the premise of male rape and sexual threat. It is what makes the films more scary than your average slasher film.

The point she was making is that line/scene cant be considered promotion of rape culture, if Hook isnt actually taking away Emma’s ability to make choices- just because a euphemism makes someone uncomfortable, it doesnt mean it’s takes away someones ability to make a choice… what was said cant be twisted into “forcing himself” on Emma, as the word choices are “normally I prefer to do more enjoyable activities with a woman on her back” preferring to do something is not the same as “demanding or insisting”… “When I jab you with my sword, you’ll feel it” When isnt the same as “Now I’m going to whether you like it or not”. It was designed to shock Emma, but didnt. At no point does he say “I am going to jab you with my ‘sword’ & you’ll feel it”- That could easily be considered promoting rape culture, but that is simply not what was said.

2. Where did the writer get the idea that Milah worked in a tavern? I don’t recall that being said in-show. Milah spent a lot of her time at the tavern but that’s probably because that was the one place where she wasn’t made to feel like a pariah. Taverns didn’t care who you were so long as you continued to drink and spend your money.

I’m with both Epona & yourself on that score- I have no clue if her assumption is correct, I always thought Milah was a housewife :/

3. I strongly disagree that “Rumple punishes Hook further by not killing him so Hook decides to remove Belle from him by shooting her in the shoulder”. What Hook did to Belle was just plain wrong. He didn’t just shoot her in the shoulder, he took away her memories, he took away her IDENTITY. I had no problem with Hook stabbing Rumple in 215 (I didn’t like it but I had no problem with it). Rumple wasn’t “punishing” Hook by not killing him, Rumple would’ve happily killed him, Rumple was trying to show Belle that he did have good in him and that she wasn’t wrong. Belle was encouraging Rumple to do the right thing, yeah she may have been more Rumple focussed, but Hook had tried to kill her previously. I noticed in the meta the writer left out the scenes of Hook in Belle’s cell and Hook at the library. If anything, Hook went after Belle unprovoked. Belle hadn’t done anything to Hook so Hook wasn’t actually being “honourable” in his treatment of Belle.

Epona already answered the circumstances here (being when Rumple murdered Milah on the JR etc.)

I feel that meta kind of tried to whitewash Hook’s past misdeeds a little. I get that the aim of the meta was to prove that Hook doesn’t promote rape-culture and it does achieve that, however it does feel like there is a little whitewashing in there specifically in Hook’s treatment of Belle. We all know I wasn’t Hook’s biggest fan during season 2 but still, he his past misdeeds should be acknowledged alongside Regina’s and Rumple’s.

Epona’s response pretty much covers mine here as well, I will add that the meta was directly & solely in response to his actions with regards to promoting rape culture- not if his deeds where douche bag moves or heroic, if they where justifiable or not etc.- I think pretty much all of us agree that Hook has done somethings *hitting Belle is the biggest IMO* that are down right wrong & contemptible- but then, to be fair to Hook, we have to remember Regina & Rumple have both bodily thrown people into solid objects & caused them to lose consciousness, which is no different to punching them IMO, as the end result is the same- physical injury that causes them to lose consciousness at the hands of someone else- ie. Rumple tossed Red bodily into a tree & knocked her out cold, for me just because Rumple used magic, doesnt mean he didnt intentionally cause physical injury to a women (Red), that resulted in her losing consciousness- The same applies to Regina. Magic IMO doesnt give Rumple or Regina a “it doesnt count” pass on the violence they commit- but then thats just my opinion 🙂

One thing of interest in that meta though was the definition of rape culture etc etc which includes “•Dehumanization of femininity – calling people “sissy”, “pussy”, “not a real man”, etc.” I bring this up in relation to the Milah and Rumple relationship especially when Milah is mouthing off at Rumple in the tavern when he says she had responsibilities and she replied “you mean like BEING A MAN and fighting in the ogre wars?” Milah is implying that Rumple wasn’t a real man because he didn’t fight in the ogre war, then in 401 during Rumple’s speech to Neal’s grave he said that when he had comforted Bae, for the first time in his life he “felt like a man”. By the meta writer’s definition of rape culture, wasn’t Milah, by implying that Rumple wasn’t a man for not fighting in the ogre war, participating in the “Dehumanization of femininity”?

I think in that particular case, you need to take context into consideration- it is absolutely clear Milah didnt say it as a euphemism for his sexual prowess, she flat out said what she meant & this is confirmed later when they talk in the hovel, so it wouldnt be considered promotion of rape culture.
Please remember this is just my opinion, but I think his speech at the grave has to be taken with a grain of salt- Rumple chose to go to war- he had to have “felt like a man” when he chose to do so, he also had to have “felt like a man” when he asked Milah to marry him & she accepted. Milah lost respect for him AFTER he willingly maimed himself to get out of fighting in the war & brought shame down on them all, then flat out refused to leave the village & start fresh elsewhere, so if he felt less of a man AFTER maiming himself because of Milah’s loss of respect, then maybe he should have moved & started fresh (& no I dont condone Milah being a cow to him, but I do understand why she was, the same as I dont approve of Rumple deserting the war he signed up for, even if I understand why he did so)- again just my opinion.

[surayya]

Jenna_B wrote:

Haha, I do just have to make one comment about the script tease and ‘haters’…apparently they are interpreting it as Hook attempting to buy Emma. That is awesome, just because you really have to be out of your mind to get that from the script tease! Those haters….they used to upset me, now they just make my day with their insanity! Probably not the effect they’re looking for, however….

Yeah, I just love that since what he’s saying is actually in support of Emma’s individual rights as a woman! He’s mocking the old-fashioned idea of a woman being “owned” by her father until she’s transferred to a husband.

I had a chuckle at that as well- damned if he points out women have a right to choose who they want to be in a relationship with, damned if he holds his tongue & says nothing LOL Some of the things they come up with really are laughable 😉

[surayya]

Can you talk about the flashbacks we’re going to see to Emma’s childhood this season?
It’s not going to change who Emma is now. A lot of it is what’s already been built into her character in terms of her being shuffled between foster homes and things like that. There is some stuff that’s going to be revealed that actually impacts everyone in the sense that there’s just some information that comes out about her past that changes the overall puzzle that we’re all considering in this story. I know that’s incredibly vague. [Laughs]
Emma and Hook have decided to take it slow. What’s ahead for them?
We do see them go on a first date. As always, there’s a lot going on. There are concerns about Regina (Lana Parrilla) being heartbroken over Marian (Christie Laing) coming back and she wants to try to help anyway she can, so that’s distracting. There’s a snow monster in town, that’s distracting. We eventually encounter Elsa, so that’s distracting. Then we discover that there’s an evil Snow Queen (Elizabeth Mitchell), so that’s distracting. There’s just stuff going on that’s in the way of them just having a happy-go-lucky situation. But they’re trying. They’re trying to figure out how to get to know each other amidst all these crises, and how to make time to go on a date. It’s a very unique take on the beginning of dating.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/10/03/once-upon-time-jennifer-morris-spoilers/

I saw a really neat theory recently that maybe the Snow queen knew Emma as a child or fostered Emma at some point, which is why she’s after Emma & Emma’s reaction to seeing her again is what sets off Emma’s nerves, causing her magic to become uncontrollable. I mean I was wondering what else Emma could possibly have been through in the foster system, that’s still holding her back (other than random acts of magic) & that would explain some of it.. I thought it was really interesting anyway.

[Killian Jones]

I kind of get the feeling they’re going to be setting up the Emmma/Elsa dynamic this ep- so think Killy might miss out on being the dashing hero for his Swan….again One of these days we will be able to swoop in & rescue her though. I’d like for it to be Ep2, but think they’ll keep us waiting a little longer yet- A&E are great teases & love to dangle the carrot for us lol   We get the 1st Killian initiated kiss in ep2?! That isnt the night time one is it? The one they blocked? I thought that was for ep3?- Beyond excited if it’s ep2 or even better we get a kiss almost every ep I feel I’ve been living under a rock atm… there’s magic that happens?!!?!?! How did I miss this tidbit! Where/when/how did this get leaked?  

I might be an episode of but that’s the word that was going around. They said they were shooting with a green screen in that kiss scene so people were thinking something magical at the time. I spent all summer on tumblr on top of every spoiler but you know it’s a lot of relaying other people’s accounts of what’s happening. We know for sure though the Killian kiss happens after he does something that gets Emma upset at him & she definitely seems to forgive him after the kiss 🙂

[surayya]

lol- the blink & you miss it moment 😉

[surayya]

Some new pretties 🙂

[surayya]

[surayya]

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