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This is going to be an unpopular thought but I do agree that CS wasn’t planned from the beginning because of the rights issue. The writers may have had the idea, they may have even had a back up idea just in case they didn’t get the rights. But until they had the rights, they couldn’t really go with CS until they knew it was a certainty. Once they got the rights, they probably started playing around with it but I don’t think CS was planned when they were filming the pilot.
Well yes, they couldn’t have gone with CS until they had the rights (and to see whether the actors had chemistry, which according to DVD commentary one of the writers was really happy when they found Colin) but the point is that it was planned. If they couldn’t get rights to Captain Hook in the first season, they could have ditched that character and went down another path, but they didn’t. They eventually got the rights and went down the path they wanted to. It may not have been the exact same path, but I’m sure the inkling was always there. I would have love to know how different first season would be if Captain Hook was there from the start. Who would he have been in Storybrooke under the first curse? Would Emma and him got together before the curse ended? Would getting his memories back turn him back into the revenge-fuelled pirate? So many questions!
I do wonder if they might be bringing Neal back because of the sudden spurt of Neal references. I think Emma and Neal need to properly lay that whole chapter to rest once and for all. As strange as it seems, I would’ve liked for them to bring Milah back rather than Marian (a bit difficult because of the way she died) but the aftermath would’ve been so much richer. There would be lots of angst for Hook and CS because when he’d finally moved on, the woman he spent centuries avenging returned to his life, plus Milah would create trouble for Rumple. Two couples connected by one character plus we wouldn’t have to endure Regina’s whining. So yeah, interested to see where the Rumple/Hook blackmail plot is going to go.
I really hope they don’t bring Neal back. Personally I don’t think bringing Milah back would have the same repercussions that bringing Marion back has. For one, Killian was never married to Milah, so there’s no vow to keep, a la Robin. It’s basically Hook’s love of Emma which stopped his vengeance kick, he changed to be worthy of her. Whereas Killian didn’t have to change to have Milah’s love, they were pirates together and I think Hook would realise that Milah was his first love and not his true love. It’s similar to the whole Neal thing, I know a lot of Nealfire fans like to think Neal was getting back with Emma when he came back into her life, but he so wasn’t. Emma was moving on (and onto Hook) and The New Neverland and Going Home show where her affections lie. She didn’t get a chance to act on those feelings before she was ripped away from her family. I think in the end Emma realised that Neal was her first love, but she had moved on. I think it would be the same for Killian if Milah appeared back in his life. It would be quite mean to Milah to bring her back. Both men in her life have moved on to greener pastures (I’m not a Milah-shamer, but she really didn’t bring the best out in her men) and her son is dead. I think it’s nicer for her that she stay dead. I’m concerned about what they’re going to do with Marion. Robin has pretty much said he loves Regina. And surely he can’t stay in a loveless marriage, that’s not fair on either on them. The easily solution is to have Marion killed, but that’s just a cop out. Unless there is an awesome twist somewhere, I think they’ve painted themselves into a corner.
I totally agree with all of this & have nothing more to add to the points @ellemo78 has made 🙂
[adrotate group="5"]I would have love to know how different first season would be if Captain Hook was there from the start. Who would he have been in Storybrooke under the first curse? Would Emma and him got together before the curse ended? Would getting his memories back turn him back into the revenge-fuelled pirate? So many questions!
Screwball Ninja theorised that the cursed personalities were the original personalities minus their best traits. For example, Lacey was Belle without her compassion. Mary Margaret was Snow without her confidence. Mr Gold was Rumple without his passion, David Nolan was charming without faith in himself etc.
So what would be Hook’s best trait? His determination? Dedication? Passion? Would cursed Hook be a layabout constantly between jobs?
Screwball Ninja theorised what cursed Hook would be like.
http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/66600906269/this-is-random-but-if-hook-had-by-chance-ended-up
It would be quite mean to Milah to bring her back. Both men in her life have moved on to greener pastures (I’m not a Milah-shamer, but she really didn’t bring the best out in her men) and her son is dead. I think it’s nicer for her that she stay dead.
Lol nicer for Milah not to come back to life.
I’m concerned about what they’re going to do with Marion. Robin has pretty much said he loves Regina. And surely he can’t stay in a loveless marriage, that’s not fair on either on them. The easily solution is to have Marion killed, but that’s just a cop out. Unless there is an awesome twist somewhere, I think they’ve painted themselves into a corner.
An easy solution would’ve been not to have Regina been the one to murder Marion originally. Now OQ just has a bad taste. I’m rooting for Marian to live and be happy but season 4 has made Robin seem like a bit of a douchebag.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixScrewball Ninja theorised that the cursed personalities were the original personalities minus their best traits. For example, Lacey was Belle without her compassion. Mary Margaret was Snow without her confidence. Mr Gold was Rumple without his passion, David Nolan was charming without faith in himself etc.
So what would be Hook’s best trait? His determination? Dedication? Passion? Would cursed Hook be a layabout constantly between jobs?
Screwball Ninja theorised what cursed Hook would be like.
http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/66600906269/this-is-random-but-if-hook-had-by-chance-ended-up
Sweet, thanks 🙂
I’ve always been curious about what happened to the ‘bad guys’ during the first curse. Obviously not everyone will be a good guy, we got to see Bo Peep running the butcher’s shop. (Was she cursed to be nice?) But we only really got to see the good guys remembering who they were. Regina wasn’t cursed, Rumple got his memories back before the curse broke. Cora and Hook came along afterwards. Hook would have been a great candidate to show a good guy reverting to his ‘evil’ self once he got his real memories back (esp going by Screwball Ninja’s theory that cursed!Hook would be like Lt. Jones), but I guess that’s kind of what they’re doing now, confronting the darkness in him and all that 🙂An easy solution would’ve been not to have Regina been the one to murder Marion originally. Now OQ just has a bad taste. I’m rooting for Marian to live and be happy but season 4 has made Robin seem like a bit of a douchebag.
Yeah, absolutely, I’m team Marion all the way. I hope she finds happiness.
If one is to engage with the primordial forces of darkness, one must expect a little social awkwardness
Oh my…you know when you’re gone for a day and come back to about 7 new pages something’s going on! Sigh. Yes, please remember ship threads are considered by many to be their ‘safe havens’ even when the topic is not their particular ship – and the thoughts expressed should be respected. Well, all thoughts should be respected but you know what I mean! 🙂
I did really like this episode, and I’m glad I did, because it confirmed to me that I’m enjoying the season overall, not just the abundance of CS the writers are giving us so far!~~~
In regard to Regina – I didn't see the episode as a parallel necessarily to Emma's story in 3B. I saw it more as Emma, realizing how important it was for her to have her family and Killian there, giving her unwavering support and wanting to pay it forward, if you will. Perhaps Emma's pushing Killian & her family away, and Regina's pushing Emma away are similar, but their motivations are drastically different.
Do I think Emma and Regina are going to be besties – or that they should? No, definitely not. Even without the history they are two very different women. However, they still have a son that they have to co-parent, so they need to have some kind of relationship that isn't filled with animosity – for their child's sake. I think, given Emma's recent experiences, she's able to see this.
~~~
Overall, I did kind of see this episode as A&E basically telling the fandom ‘yeah, we hear you! SHUT IT!!!’ haha. The criticism thread for the episode discussed whether the episode could have been considered baiting…I’m not sure I’d go that far, but I do know when I was watching Emma/Regina scenes thinking the SQ ship must be having a field day, Hook’s comment to Will about his relationship with Henry as the writers putting anti-Hookers in their place regarding Capt Cobra, etc etc. I think I was amused by it for the most part, personally. I wasn’t sure it was the best idea, because I’m assuming there was a lot of “feedback” after the episode, and frankly, people are going to think what they want to think and see things they want to see at this point. (I did see somewhere someone saying Hook looking at the photo of Emma & Neal and his reaction being his realization that he and Emma would never be together right now if Neal were alive….definitely not sure we were watching the same show, that fan and I because I saw Hook looking at Baelfire and feeling all of the pain and complicated emotions he has for Bae flood to the surface, but maybe that’s just me.)
~~~
Of course, I loved the CS scenes we had! I love how, now that Emma and Killian have both admitted to themselves & each other how they feel, now comfortable they seem to be with each other. It’s wonderful to see Emma opening up more and more – I’m hoping, now that she and David seem to have established a nice balance, it happens with Snow. I was both amazed and not surprised (if that’s possible!) when Emma brought out her box of childhood possessions and shared them with Killian. I’m glad there was a pic of Neal in there, and I’m glad we got to see the pain both Emma and Killian still feel when reminded of him. (Because while I don’t think for a second Emma was even contemplating resuming her relationship with Neal, both she & Killian did care for him in their own ways….I won’t bring up the fact that she bailed on one date and got more than a tad fancified for the other as an example of that opinion or anything…tee hee) And I was glad to see Graham’s shoelace was back after being removed for the date. To me, going through her past, seeing the photo of Neal, after her date with Killian, really drove home the concept that Emma is not forgetting about or letting go of her past; rather, she’s looking at the memories and momentos and instead of only seeing the pain, she’s finding the positive. Again, amazing character development for our girl. I can only hope that Killian’s identity crisis that I would assume will occur, and his recovery from it will be as well done.
Ok I just realized this post is about 1.5 pages in word (yeah, I type them out there now before posting, lost too many with a flick of the wrist typing directly in the forum! Ha! So I will bow out. Continue with the pretties, Surayya, I love seeing them! And I’m loving the discussions that have come up – you’ve given me lots to think about!ahem – and our pirate is really the only man alive that could get away with that shirt.
OK, I had to bring this here to The Happy Haven (grin) because I love the great humor that this fandom embraces!!
The fandom “during the last ten seconds of OUAT 4×5” (and because I have a special place in my heart for SIGNS~ inspite of crazzzzy Mel)
(courtesy of joury4.tumblr.com)
***Always in search of a good flock***
@Epona, you’re not the only one having issues with Regina. I’ve been steadily disliking her more and more since 3B especially Kansas. As I said in chat yesterday, Regina (and Rumple) work better as neutral characters with leanings towards the good side because of Belle and Henry rather than proper heroes.
I dislike Regina’s whole attitude of “the book made me a villain” No Regina YOUR ACTIONS made you a villain, the book only documented the past. All the other characters on the show acknowledge when they’ve done a bad thing, even if they continue doing those things. Regina on the other hand takes no responsibility for her actions, she constantly blames others for every wrong thing she does. Regina in Kansas was such a mary-sue. She was irritating.
Obviously fans will stand up for their favourite characters, it’s only natural, but I think there is a difference between acknowledging the character has done something wrong yet trying to explain it away and just completely whitewashing a character’s actions which I do think some EvilRegals try and do. There is no way in hell that Hansel and Gretel had a choice. There is no way in hell Marian or that village had a choice.
Glad there are others around here who feel how I do! And I mean Hook is obviously one of my favorite characters, and I think his reasons for going evil are quite understandable, but I certainly won’t deny that he did some awful things in an effort to avenge Milah, the worst of which were to Belle. I’d like to see a real apology there, although I’m not sure how that would come about since I doubt he’ll have much time for little têtes-à-têtes with the wife of his mortal enemy.
OQ has completely screwed over Regina’s character and I’m bored of seeing Regina whining about how nothing is her fault, how everyone else is to blame, how she doesn’t get to be with a guy because Emma saved his wife from being murdered by Regina. Regina has to learn that she can’t treat people like dirt then expect them to like her. I cheered when Sidney betrayed Regina because, quite frankly, she had it coming. Yet Regina seemed surprised by it. She’s so convinced she’s life’s victim, how could anyone betray poor little Regina who hasn’t done anything wrong, she’s quite deluded.
I couldn’t get invested in OQ because of the speed it developed, a crappy “they’re meant to be together because pixie dust said so” is no substitute for the characters emotionally connecting and developing chemistry. Had the build up been slower, I would probably feel more sympathy for Regina. However, with the reveal that Regina originally murdered Marian, OQ just leaves a bad taste. It’s wrong for a murderer to be dating her victim’s husband and nothing is going to change that wrongness. I seriously question the healthiness of such a relationship.
Regina needs to suck it up, grow a pair, and own up to her mistakes. She needs to try and make amends with those she can that she’s wronged. It’s a little late for the village she had slaughtered but she can still make it up to the likes of Belle, Marian, Henry, Hansel and Gretel, Snow etc.
Yes, yes, and yes.
The scene at the end between them was kind of sweet. Emma’s hair looked nice in the ponytail. I would’ve preferred Emma to have gone through the memory box by herself then Hook comes in on the tail end rather than Hook rifling through the box. I know he had her permission but it just seemed like such a personal thing. I did see an interesting theory that because Emma is opening up about her past to Hook, she may be expecting him to do the same which is where future angst may lie for CS one way or the other.
I can kind of see how some people might’ve preferred for it to be Emma herself or Emma with her parents or Henry, but personally I’m not going to complain about getting adorable CS scenes. 🙂
I’d actually really like to know how much Emma knows about Hook’s past. I really think she does know exactly who Milah was, both from the scene in Bae’s old cave in 304 and because she’s not an idiot. I’d like explicit confirmation one way or the other though. Other than that though, I have no idea what she does and doesn’t know.
This is going to be an unpopular thought but I do agree that CS wasn’t planned from the beginning because of the rights issue. The writers may have had the idea, they may have even had a back up idea just in case they didn’t get the rights. But until they had the rights, they couldn’t really go with CS until they knew it was a certainty. Once they got the rights, they probably started playing around with it but I don’t think CS was planned when they were filming the pilot.
Obviously this is something we’ll most likely never get answers on, but personally I think that the first season was the most solidly planned out in advance, and aside from the brief thing with Graham, Emma wasn’t really supposed to have a love interest because they were developing her True Love with Henry. I do think that as of season two CS was definitely planned to some extent, for several reasons. First of all, let’s be honest: why would they cast someone that good-looking who had great chemistry with Jen in that role if they didn’t intend to have him be a significant love interest? And then in “Tallahassee” it was pretty obvious that he was being introduced as a love interest for Emma. I mean we had that incredibly sexy hand-bandaging, we see them working together really well, he’s complimenting her (and not just on her looks), while we see Emma clearly attracted to him but scared of those feelings–and then we find out why when we see Neal in the flashbacks, so the beginning of their story is accompanied by a pretty negative introduction for Neal as well. (And I love that pirate/Jolly Roger heart keychain in the convenience store as well; I don’t think that was a coincidence.)
And I know I’ve said this before, but based on Neal’s various introduction episodes, I find it hard to believe that he was supposed to be Emma’s happy ending. First we see him leave her pregnant and in jail for his crime in “Tallahassee” and learn that he’s the one who taught her never to trust anyone. Then the first time we see them interact in the present, Neal (a) yells at her for bringing his father to him, (b) literally laughs in her face when she points out that he abandoned her like Rumple abandoned him, and (c) makes demands about being in Henry’s life when I’m pretty sure he gave up any paternal rights he might’ve had when he left the 16-17-year-old girl, with whom he’d had unprotected sex, in prison for his crime with no way to reach him. Any time you have sex with someone, you have to know that there could be a baby (even if the chances are very small depending on contraceptives). When you know that, and still leave the person with whom you had sex with no way to contact you, surely that is knowingly surrendering your parental rights.
But like I said, I suppose we’ll never know, although I’m going to take A&E at their word when they say they’d planned it. We do know of one instance for sure where they changed their plans for the show because someone wanted them to, though. Ahem.
I’d actually really like to know how much Emma knows about Hook’s past. I really think she does know exactly who Milah was, both from the scene in Bae’s old cave in 304 and because she’s not an idiot. I’d like explicit confirmation one way or the other though. Other than that though, I have no idea what she does and doesn’t know.
Me too. I agree, she must know who Milah is in relation to everyone else. They looked pretty awkward in that cave when Bae’s mother was mentioned. She obv knows he lost his brother to Dreamshade (Charming told her that). I doubt she knows he was abandoned by his father – unless Neal told her, but I doubt it. Whether she knows he was an upstanding member of the Royal Navy, who knows? Charming must have that sussed though, he recognised the insignia as military, and Hook said his brother was his captain, so two and two should equal four on that. But you know, Charming can be pretty dense sometimes.
If one is to engage with the primordial forces of darkness, one must expect a little social awkwardness
I really hope they don’t bring Neal back.
Me too–I really don’t like that he died without seeing more interaction with Hook and Rumple (it will always bug me that he never confronted his father about having murdered his mother), but it would be very strange to bring him back now. And they did say that whoever died in 3B was actually going to die and stay dead.
Whereas Killian didn’t have to change to have Milah’s love, they were pirates together and I think Hook would realise that Milah was his first love and not his true love.
That’s something I’ve wondered about…we had Rumple say several times in “The Crocodile” that he could see that they were True Love, and while I wouldn’t take his opinion on love as gospel, especially at that point way before Belle, we did see that each of them was willing to die to protect the other, and that seems like pretty true love to me. *Shrug* I guess it comes down to whether someone can have more than one TL in a lifetime–although really, Hook has had like four lifetimes so I could believe that he had two TLs 300 years apart, haha. Obviously I think he and Emma are TL though regardless, and I’m really hoping we see proof of that by the end of 4A. *fingers crossed*
I’m concerned about what they’re going to do with Marion. Robin has pretty much said he loves Regina. And surely he can’t stay in a loveless marriage, that’s not fair on either on them. The easily solution is to have Marion killed, but that’s just a cop out. Unless there is an awesome twist somewhere, I think they’ve painted themselves into a corner.
An easy solution would’ve been not to have Regina been the one to murder Marion originally. Now OQ just has a bad taste. I’m rooting for Marian to live and be happy but season 4 has made Robin seem like a bit of a douchebag.
I agree with both of you–I don’t see a way to have OQ end up together without Robin seeming like a jerk for ending up with the woman who killed/tried to kill his wife and Roland’s mother. Personally I’d like to see Marian end up with someone who really loves her for the awesome, principled, strong woman she is. I just really hope they don’t have her suddenly forgive Regina–if someone had imprisoned me, tortured me, and announced that she was looking forward to seeing my head on a spike, I don’t think I’d get over it too quickly. But everyone else seems to have conveniently forgotten Regina’s crimes, so I’m not gonna hold my breath.
Overall, I did kind of see this episode as A&E basically telling the fandom ‘yeah, we hear you! SHUT IT!!!’ haha. The criticism thread for the episode discussed whether the episode could have been considered baiting…I’m not sure I’d go that far, but I do know when I was watching Emma/Regina scenes thinking the SQ ship must be having a field day, Hook’s comment to Will about his relationship with Henry as the writers putting anti-Hookers in their place regarding Capt Cobra, etc etc. I think I was amused by it for the most part, personally. I wasn’t sure it was the best idea, because I’m assuming there was a lot of “feedback” after the episode, and frankly, people are going to think what they want to think and see things they want to see at this point. (I did see somewhere someone saying Hook looking at the photo of Emma & Neal and his reaction being his realization that he and Emma would never be together right now if Neal were alive….definitely not sure we were watching the same show, that fan and I because I saw Hook looking at Baelfire and feeling all of the pain and complicated emotions he has for Bae flood to the surface, but maybe that’s just me.) ~~~ Of course, I loved the CS scenes we had! I love how, now that Emma and Killian have both admitted to themselves & each other how they feel, now comfortable they seem to be with each other. It’s wonderful to see Emma opening up more and more – I’m hoping, now that she and David seem to have established a nice balance, it happens with Snow. I was both amazed and not surprised (if that’s possible!) when Emma brought out her box of childhood possessions and shared them with Killian. I’m glad there was a pic of Neal in there, and I’m glad we got to see the pain both Emma and Killian still feel when reminded of him. (Because while I don’t think for a second Emma was even contemplating resuming her relationship with Neal, both she & Killian did care for him in their own ways….I won’t bring up the fact that she bailed on one date and got more than a tad fancified for the other as an example of that opinion or anything…tee hee) And I was glad to see Graham’s shoelace was back after being removed for the date. To me, going through her past, seeing the photo of Neal, after her date with Killian, really drove home the concept that Emma is not forgetting about or letting go of her past; rather, she’s looking at the memories and momentos and instead of only seeing the pain, she’s finding the positive. Again, amazing character development for our girl. I can only hope that Killian’s identity crisis that I would assume will occur, and his recovery from it will be as well done. Ok I just realized this post is about 1.5 pages in word (yeah, I type them out there now before posting, lost too many with a flick of the wrist typing directly in the forum! Ha! So I will bow out. Continue with the pretties, Surayya, I love seeing them! And I’m loving the discussions that have come up – you’ve given me lots to think about! ahem – and our pirate is really the only man alive that could get away with that shirt.
Agreed
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