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So I see this is getting back up, so I’ll join in and I hope this can all remain a peaceful convo and discussion, even if different. My views are more Hook based and less CS based for reasons I will say below.
I guess my point is, the writers skipped Hook’s redemption arc so we never got to see his journey from point A to Point
I gotta agree here. I feel like most of the other villains on the show that we see on a consistent basis have really had to work hard to go from villain to hero (or villain to neutral “not-villain”). But Hook just has it handed to him no matter what. He never deals with anything, he never faces reprecussions, he is easily forgiven, and nothing ever sticks no matter what. Regina has had to go through trials. Rump has had to go through trials. Look at what happened recently with the Hook and Papa Charming thing. Literally nothing.
So now before someone says it: Im not denying Hook has not changed or that he has not done good things, I’m not denying he hasn’t become better person. But I don’t feel its genuine for a reason that @darkonedearie said in another thread: Its just for Emma.
I don’t feel he has become this way because he wants to be, but because being any other way will push Emma away from him. I said in some other thread that Hook was selfish and even though Michael misconstrued it by saying that he has done things for Emma and that was exactly what I meant. Everything he does he does for his own purposes, which are getting Emma to stay with him. Take her out of the picture and he reverts to who he is. He doesn’t care about other people around him (and now, not even Emma seems to care about others around her). CS doesn’t mesh well with everyone else in this show.
Back in S2, I really enjoyed Hook. He had so much personaility, he was fun, witty, and just added this new flavor to the show that was not present in the first season. I was a big Hook fan in S2, but it wasn’t until S3 that I got bored out of my mind with him. Once they made him Emma-centered, he became boring for everyone who was interested in any thing outside of Emma and Hook (and this is why I think a lot of CS fans get agitated. Hook is so heavily ship involved they cant see past that. Ive said it before, I don’t care that Hook and Emma are together. Hook has nothing going on and that’s why I’m not invested in his character. Everything that happens to hm eventually gets re-rounded back to being about Emma.)
My perfect re-write of S3 would have been very Hook-Rumpel-Neal centered with Emma taking a back seat to that dynamic between that trio. Where we see Hook and Rumpel constantly trying not to go at eachothers necks for the past that they share because now they have a common enemy: Pan. Neal would have had conflicted feelings about Hook because despite the fact that he sold him away to Pan and stole his mother away, he perhaps may have felt some fatherly feelings toward Hook from the short time they spent together, and this of course would set Rumpel off because now he feels that not only is Hook responsible for him losing Milah in a way, but also that he may hold a spot in Bae’s heart. And of course with Neal and Hook, there would be Emma in the middle. But despite it all, I would have wanted Hook to cement himself as a hero by helping Rumpel defeat Pan.
Because hes Captain Hook!
What we got instead was nothing but man tears and ship wars and its been the same since. I want more from Hook as a character. If Once gets a 7rh season, now that he and Emma are engaged (and assuming they stay for the 7th) I would be interested in what more would be left for him. Because there is literally nothing left because he has Emma. Now what? He has nothing more to attain….
Idk. Just rambling. Thoughts?
[adrotate group="5"]"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICBut yeah, I wonder if he knows how pro SF the forums truly are and how anti-Hook, anti-Emma, and anti-CS they are too.
To be fair, Oncepodcast doesn’t endorse or denounce any ships, like Daniel. The people can talk about any ship and their views here. The CS fans left this place because not everyone here wanted to agree with their opinions. No one was ran out. No one was forced out. They were numerous just like everyone else, including SF. They found greener pastures elsewhere I assume, where they could boast CS without hearing any criticism. And theres nothing wrong with that. But don’t act like its the forums fault, please.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICSo, for what’s it worth, I don’t hate Hook this season. For me, the core of the problem is CS, and not because I necessarily mind the pairing in the abstract, but because it was always set up from the beginning that Hook’s is entirely contingent on him wanting to be with Emma. Change is a hard process — that’s an unfortunate fact of biology, there’s neural hardware to the personalities we develop which means that changing one’s fundamental make-up actually requires the literal rewiring of neural pathways — a long, difficult process full of setbacks that takes years, hard work, support structures, therapy…
So with this in mind, Hook’s change is narratively set-up to feel either insincere, or temporary — potentially reverting the second his feelings for Emma start to fizzle or just even normalize. That’s literally structurally inbuilt into the writing, And it doesn’t help that I do not like the way Emma is being portrayed in the last few seasons — though that might not be a question of CS. But bracketing that part out for now, for CS to work for me in the abstract, the show would have to retcon Hook a bit, for example by doing a flashback insert where they actually dwell into a moment prior to Emma that hints at Hook’s moral ambivalence and willingness to evolve into a new, more positive direction. Then I would be willing to buy that Emma’s actually a catalyst that Hook latches on to in his effort to turn things around for himself. But in the absence of that, I find it hard to buy. Change is difficult. The more they make it seem seamless for Hook, the more suspicious and dismissive I feel about the sincerity or longevity of his redemption.
I guess my point is, the writers skipped Hook’s redemption arc so we never got to see his journey from point A to Point B. He wasn’t good enough for Emma in season 2 and now he’s too good for her in season 6. I probably would’ve liked Season 6 Hook and Season 2 Emma to get together, but because of lazy writing on the writer’s part, it’s not a pairing I can fully support.
So I think a lot of what you say here is valid. And I agree with most of it. I think what really ruffles my feathers is when people say Hook hasn’t changed and they still label him with adjectives that represented him way back when he was a crude pirate. That makes me mad bc people are so blind and hate him so much that they can’t even see when the character is doing good things. He has gotten ridiculed so much this season on these forums and I just get tired of it. But yes, the CS relationship is flawed bc they rushed Hook’s “redemption arc” and Emma has become someone who only cares about her relationship with Hook. Her relationship with Henry, Regina, Snow etc has really taken a nose dive.
don’t feel he has become this way because he wants to be, but because being any other way will push Emma away from him. I said in some other thread that Hook was selfish and even though Michael misconstrued it by saying that he has done things for Emma and that was exactly what I meant. Everything he does he does for his own purposes, which are getting Emma to stay with him. Take her out of the picture and he reverts to who he is. He doesn’t care about other people around him (and now, not even Emma seems to care about others around her). CS doesn’t mesh well with everyone else in this show.
See, this I have a problem with. Do you think that he helped Charming simply bc of Emma? No, bc he was very uncomfortable helping Charming bc it meant lying to Emma. But he did it for HIM! What about telling Charming not to kill King George? What did that have to do with Emma. That was just Hook being a better person and not wanting to kill. What about Belle? He didn’t have to give her refuge when Emma was nowhere to be found to help. What about saving Belle? What about apologizing to Belle for shooting her and telling her Rumple really does love her? He didn’t have to do that for Emma. What about saving Henry? He didn’t have to do that. Ever hear of jerk boyfriends who love your mother but don’t care about you at all? Well, that’s not Hook. He genuinely wanted to get Henry’s approval of him. Does he do a lot of stuff simply so he can stay with Emma and be with her? Yup, absolutely. As he should. He loves her and would do anything for her. Has there really been many opportunities for him to help others which have zero affect on Emma? Not really. But when given the opportunity, he has!
You are correct about getting zero repercussions for his behaviors though. That is a problem and it reflects poorly on the show and perhaps that’s why people don’t like Hook bc he gets away with everything with zero backlash afterwards. But that’s the show’s fault. It’s nothing that Hook is doing to make you not like him.
o be fair, Oncepodcast doesn’t endorse or denounce any ships, like Daniel. The people can talk about any ship and their views here. The CS fans left this place because not everyone here wanted to agree with their opinions. No one was ran out. No one was forced out. They were numerous just like everyone else, including SF. They found greener pastures elsewhere I assume, where they could boast CS without hearing any criticism. And theres nothing wrong with that. But don’t act like its the forums fault, please.
I was just speculating and going on my personal experience with these forums here bc as a Hook fan, I felt there was so much negativity, even when he did positive things, that it made me want to leave. So I speculated that perhaps that’s why all the CS fans left as well. So yes, since I felt that the negativity was overwhelming and at times completely unjustified towards Hook, it made me want to leave therefore I can certainly say it was the forum’s fault for making me feel that way and therefore am totally in my right to speculate that these forums also made CS fans want to leave as well. I know you want to protect your forums here but there is a ton of negativity and a ton geared toward Emma and Hook so it makes a lot of sense that people who like those characters would get really turned off here.
was just speculating and going on my personal experience with these forums here bc as a Hook fan, I felt there was so much negativity, even when he did positive things, that it made me want to leave. So I speculated that perhaps that’s why all the CS fans left as well. So yes, since I felt that the negativity was overwhelming and at times completely unjustified towards Hook, it made me want to leave therefore I can certainly say it was the forum’s fault for making me feel that way and therefore am totally in my right to speculate that these forums also made CS fans want to leave as well. I know you want to protect your forums here but there is a ton of negativity and a ton geared toward Emma and Hook so it makes a lot of sense that people who like those characters would get really turned off here.
I will not deny the negativity. To do so would be willfully blind. However, your proposed solution seems to be that the negativity needs to be lessened but that’s problematic because it forces people to ignore or at least keep silent on how they are subjectively reading a TV show. People have explained in this thread and others why they feel the way they feel. If you disagree with those opinion that is perfectly legitimate but I can’t ask people to silence their negative opinions just like I can’t ask them to silence their positive ones. This is an open forum where people can express their views so long as they abide by the rules Daniel has laid out and Matt and I enforce.
I would also like to point out that there have been a multitude of efforts over the years to foster good will and a more peaceful coexistence; you weren’t around for our LOVE days but–essentially–it was a day when we shut down all the shipping threads, had one thread solely devoted to games and positivity. You weren’t allowed to post anything ship related and it was supposed to be a community building exercise. Or you can read this post I wrote several years ago tackling the issue. Some of the suggestion given were executed–we did the Critical Analysis threads which were designed to foster only the critical readings of the show and try to leave the rest of the topics more positive. It didn’t work because, as you might imagine, people simply view this show differently now than they once did and it’s going to bleed out. Seemingly, no matter what Daniel, I, or Matt do. Which brings me to my point of this post…
Because the integrity of the forums, OncePodcast, and tangentially Daniel as site admin, Matt and Mod and myself as Keymaster have been called into question, perhaps it would be a good idea for me to sketch out exactly how it all works, the roles of everyone involved. In that way, you might at least realize that how this forum is now was simply a byproduct of fandom and what happens over time and not because of a willful ignorance of issues. I don’t want anyone to ever think that ONCEPodcast runs people out or that Daniel, Matt or myself ignore the larger issues. So, bullet point style, then:
–Daniel might be absent in the sense that he does not post here except for message about technical things, but he is not absent in the sense that he does not pop in and read messages, threads, or hang out in general. He was yesterday actually helping me with some stuff.
–Daniel and I and Matt probably talk three or four times a week both about forum related things and non forum related things. Matt and I talk almost daily.
–90% of my serious mod-ing goes through Daniel first. The other 10% is stuff like tagging spoilers, removing foul language, ie: stuff I know he wants me to fix without running it by him.
–After 5.5 years Matt and I have gotten pretty good at knowing how Daniel would handle a situation and he’s never told us that we went to far or asked to change position but if it’s anything dire–say dealing with a poster we feel is really crossing a line–we go to him. Also, all mod notes, warnings, ect are extensively logged and tracked in a subset of this forum.
–If there are any issues I take them to Daniel because this is his brand, his site, and I committed to representing him as best I can. As such, he and I had a talk yesterday in a private channel about some of the issues you and Michael have raised. His direct response was (and I am quoting him here): “This isn’t the Force. There’s no need for Balance.” In other words, Daniel understands, acknowledges, and knows that OUAT has become a hot bed of factions and things happen over time as people’s own feelings change. People stop listening to the podcast because of Daniel’s views or his pro-Christian worldview or simply because they don’t like any time one of us (Jeremy, myself, Daniel, ect) get too critical of the show, a storyline, or character. He understands the same about the forums.
I hope this clears up some things about the maintenance and upkeep of this joint. I understand that it’s not perfect, that things could be better, and that this site does have bias largely because of how its fallen out over 6 years.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"If there’s a S7, I’m kind of expecting that Emma is going to end up pregnant and that’s gonna be quite the baby.
A baby not only born of true love but a Savior baby as well. That’s gonna be a very strong baby.
Yeah, I never said people should change their opinions. If people want to be negative, then by all means be negative! However, that could be a direct result of why Hook fans and CS fans left. That’s all I was saying. My attempt to reignite the CS thread was to create some balance. You may think balance is not needed. But when the forums are overwhelmingly one-sided, it makes it hard to talk about the other side at all. So my intent was to open up the communication waves with this thread to see if a healthy discussion of CS and Hook specifically could be done so I wouldn’t have to jump into the SF thread.
If there’s a S7, I’m kind of expecting that Emma is going to end up pregnant and that’s gonna be quite the baby. A baby not only born of true love but a Savior baby as well. That’s gonna be a very strong baby.
Oh man, Savior baby…….I mean I sense many superlatives coming…..
If there’s a S7, I’m kind of expecting that Emma is going to end up pregnant and that’s gonna be quite the baby.
A baby not only born of true love but a Savior baby as well. That’s gonna be a very strong baby.
i think that would be the next logical step but i dont think so given what we know thus far about S7, which may focus on Adult Henry. I personally think Emma would adopt. I’d like that. But of course, the baby would turn out to be the child of an evil villain.
“This isn’t the Force. There’s no need for Balance.”
That sounds so dark xD but yeah, i dont agree or disagree with this. There are plenty of sites that very pro-CS and anti-SF (if not most of them). People can always go and find like minded folk if they wanted. I just dont want this forum to be branded as hate ful or intentionally anti-Hook all because the majority of peopel still floating around here are not fond of him.
Does he do a lot of stuff simply so he can stay with Emma and be with her? Yup, absolutely. As he should.
I dont feel he should do good things because thats what Emma would want. He should them because its the right thing to do. Im not saying its all he does either, i acknowledge that Hook has definetely done good things. Listing the good things isne the issue, its the bad things and lack of reprecussions he faces for it. There is still that nature about him that makes me question that if Emma walked away tomorrow, would he remain the way he is now, or would he revert back to pirate Hook? Remember when they were cursed back to the EF in….S4(?)…S3 (?). Hook did just that. In his mind, he was never going to see Emma again. So he abandoned her family and went right back to being a pirate. When i usually bring this up, CSers say “Well hes changed because he didnt sleep with that prostitute” and thats all fine and dandy but still.
Hooks choices seem so Emma centered all the time. I dont feel that with any other character or ship on this show. Thats a bad thing. And now Emma is becoming that way too :/
You are correct about getting zero repercussions for his behaviors though. That is a problem and it reflects poorly on the show and perhaps that’s why people don’t like Hook bc he gets away with everything with zero backlash afterwards. But that’s the show’s fault. It’s nothing that Hook is doing to make you not like him.
Exactly. 100% Agree.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICFor what it’s worth, I will chime in add my two cents. I agree that the hook hate became a bit much and caused some of the pro-CS fans to stop posting. That’s honestly the reason why I stopped. However, I would be willing to give it another go and join you thedarkonedearie in trying to bring this thread back to life.
I used to post on various threads on this forum actually, not frequently, but occasionally. I eventually stopped because it stopped being fun. The negativity was a bit much even in the episode recap threads, so I started a tumblr account to post my CS thoughts and took a break from the oncepodcast forum. Eventually I came back as a lurker because I do enjoy the podcast and really like the way the spoiler threads are organized on here.
Anyway, hello fellow CSer it’s lovely to meet you virtually!!!
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
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