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Isn’t it nice knowing the CS fandom on social media is massive. So that all this forums like deadness makes it so joyful. If they were more open to CS fans especially now I have no doubt this forum would be a lot more alive.
Pancakes are very good BTW, especially the morning after. 😉 Which is very obvious what CS did the engagement night.
[adrotate group="5"]I just dont want this forum to be branded as hate ful or intentionally anti-Hook all because the majority of peopel still floating around here are not fond of him.
But if you really and truly believe that you have genuinely good reasons for not liking him, and by extension, CS (e.g. romanticizing toxic relationships, unhealthy attitudes towards women etc), then why would you NOT want to be seen as anti-Hook? People tend to slap the label “hateful” onto anything that is inconvenient for them – that doesn’t necessarily make it so. There’s a difference between pettiness and disliking something because it conflicts with your values. If it’s the latter, then why “play nice”, just so that the other side won’t be offended?
then why would you NOT want to be seen as anti-Hook?
I have no issue being seen as Anti-Hook. I’m talking about the forum. The forum isn’t like some official place of anti-hookness. The people who remain here just aren’t aboard that shit because everyone else left. In other words, don’t let our views become the face of the forum. They aren’t. The other CS fans and Hooks fans are just as welcome her as SwanQueen or DavyJones shippers.
And beyond that, it doesn’t matter what the reasons are for not liking Hook. A lot of CS fans didn’t want to hear anything negative, any kind of criticism about him as a character and it lead to a bunch of squabbling. A lot of people see nothing wrong with the way he is written or what the show seems to promote by putting Emma with him. We can see that here in quite a few thread discussions recently, that some people aren’t open to discussion or that some views just can’t find a middle ground. There is pettiness on both sides. There are toxic people on both sides. There are also valid opinions and views on both sides. It shouldn’t be one sided.
But when no one here wanted to just hop on the CS swan ship, a lot of them left and it became that way. Even @Michael just said if we were more open to CS fans the forum would be more lively. We are open to them. None of them want to be in a place that disagrees with their views so they went to other sites. there is an a whole CS thread here where people can come and bask in Hook all they like. There are ship threads here everywhere. Everyone is welcome. But no one needs to silence their views for others.
I do want to be seen as anti-Hook but I don’t want that to be because (as some people keep saying) that it’s because Neal died. That’s just a cop out excuse that keeps being used.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICI mean you can say everyone is welcome, but it doesn’t always feel that way. Obviously criticism of hook shouldn’t be avoided at all costs on the forum and I don’t think that’s even what most CSers were asking for. At some point fair criticism of Hook and now criticism of Emma got to be pretty negative and it felt to me a bit overwhelmingly so. At that point it stopped being fun to check in on this forum frequently. Also regarding the question about why wouldn’t you want to be labeled as anti-hook, obviously it is fine if as a poster you are, but please try to empathize and understand that’s not how everyone interprets hook’s character or the CS relationship. In my professional life I actually work in gender issues and addressing social norms around toxic masculinities. I manage research projects on combatting gender based violence, especially intimate partner violence. These are issues I care deeply about and I personally don’t interpret the CS relationship as a toxic relationship. Of course there are things you can find to be problematic, every ship on the show is problematic. I am not saying that the way you interpret their relationship is wrong, it’s just different from how I interpret it. We have had different lived experiences and OUAT is a TV show where we only see snipbits of these characters lives and there is lots of room for interpretation. Once upon a time is an escape for me, it’s a fun lighted hearted show with occasional terrible writing, but I got swept up in it and one of the main reasons I continue watching is because of the CS relationship. I enjoy posting about the show on forums, but on this forum at some point it felt the negativity around hook and emma wasn’t just about them but started to feel personal. I guess I would just like to see more empathy on the forum and more acknowledgment that we interpret the characters and ships differently and that doesn’t make us bad people. We are all OUAT fans afterall 🙂
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
I have no issue being seen as Anti-Hook. I’m talking about the forum. The forum isn’t like some official place of anti-hookness. The people who remain here just aren’t aboard that shit because everyone else left. In other words, don’t let our views become the face of the forum. They aren’t. The other CS fans and Hooks fans are just as welcome her as SwanQueen or DavyJones shippers.
Yes, but the forum reflects the views of its majority, whether officially or not, and will be perceived as such. I never said CS fans or any others shouldn’t be allowed here. I’m just taking issue with the comments that slap derogatory labels onto individuals with certain opinions, brand this forum as “hateful” and demand apologies from others.
I also question the need for “balance”, which several people have brought up. People are more than welcome to state their views on threads they find interesting, but there is no reason why any one topic should be discussed, or discussed in a way that is NOT one-sided. Sure, it would stimulate discussion if multiple POV’s were expressed. I just don’t like the insinuation that any relationship or any thread is entitled to anything. That’s my main point.
In my professional life I actually work in gender issues and addressing social norms around toxic masculinities. I manage research projects on combatting gender based violence, especially intimate partner violence. These are issues I care deeply about and I personally don’t interpret the CS relationship as a toxic relationship. Of course there are things you can find to be problematic, every ship on the show is problematic. I am not saying that the way you interpret their relationship is wrong, it’s just different from how I interpret it.
See, this sort of thing would be interesting to discuss for sure. I don’t mind that you and I have different opinions. I just don’t like the labels and name calling that’s been going on around here – started by others, not you. I’d enjoy discussing these things with you, but I’ll also stand behind my opinions and most importantly, I will not be silenced and I will not apologise for my viewpoints.
As for things being personal, you do have my empathy. I had things in this show that felt personal for sure, and I suspect others have too. You may feel let down by the forums and the CS negativity, but some of us feel betrayed by the show itself.
Ok, can I just address this in meta, rather than specifically in relation to ship allegiance? It seems to me that CS are currently the majority of the hard-core vocal fans, yes? Perhaps even the majority of the show’s viewership? There’s probably a reason for this that has to do with self-selection — the people who have stuck with the show are likely the ones who either enjoy CS, or at least don’t object to it enough to drop the show, or who are simply casual viewers less likely to participate on social media. Then there’s a smaller section of the fandom who are watching the show for other reasons, and who are not fans of CS.
Lets say that CS is in fact the majority of OUAT’s fandom — this is indeed what @Michael seems to suggest every time s/he posts. Lets also say that all things considered, they are the population for whom OUAT/ABC caters — I often see opinions, both among pro and anti CS that OUAT is now Once Upon a Hook. So, in other words, we could say that the CS fandom is currently the primary beneficiary of the OUAT product (in terms of screen time for their favs, satisfying story lines, attention and promo work etc).
Then would it not be potentially problematic that the representatives of a majority population within a larger whole who also happen to be the ones who benefit the most (get the most pleasure) from the OUAT “commons” would interpret the opinions of the minority subset as either (a) oppression against them, (b) as dissent that must be disciplined or squashed or (c) fair game for ad hominem attacks? I get that people don’t generally play nice in this fandom, that much is obvious, even from the actors’ recent commentary. But there’s something pretty totalitarian to the impulse to demand adulation for your ship no matter where you go. I’m not saying that’s everyone, and I’m not saying that CSers are the only ones (I hear SQ was bad too). I’m saying that if one is a card-carrying anti-CSers or anti-Hook, I have a hard time imagining that being told to “fall in line” so that other CSers, who are admittedly the majority, could be comfortable is going to sway anyone — for very obvious social reasons that I hope I don’t need to explain.
Not to mention that the complaints that this forum excludes or chases off CS fans by being critical of CS is a pretty lowball move that pins the people who run it and mod it, and who don’t necessarily share the opinion of its denizens, against the people who use it routinely. Not only does it completely homogenize the users who are not vociferously pro-CS as all ‘antis,’ but I find it especially ironic in light of the simultaneous claims that most of the rest of social media is dominated by CS. I mean, do you see how that sounds?
Nice analysis @nevermore. I’ve also noticed that the tactics used by one person in particular are strongly reminiscent of those used in the real world against anyone who questions the status quo. Take feminism as an example. Feminists were, and still are, often branded as “angry” or “bitter”. These labels are used to dismiss them entirely, and also to trivialize and humiliate. Another tactic is to accuse them of being “anti-men”, to associate arguments for equality with “man-hate”. Again, this aggressive counter-attacking is intended to silence and hence, preserve the status quo.
Anyway, hello fellow CSer it’s lovely to meet you virtually!!!
The pleasure is all mine! However I maintain I’m not a CSer haha. I just like Emma and I approve her relationship with Hook. But I also liked her with Neal.
le sigh… I wasn’t trying to pick a fight with anyone or even ruffle any feathers. I certainly wasn’t intending to insult those who run and mod this forum by expressing my critique. I hope my criticism isn’t interpreted as such, but if it is I apologize, that was not the intent. I was just trying to be honest about how I felt. I thought the point of this forum is to share ideas and have fun engaging in discussion around a show we all watch. This was actually the first OUAT forum I joined and for a time it was the only one used. At some point though it stopped being fun, I stopped coming here and then came back as a lurker. When I saw that thedrakonedearie was attempting revitalize the CS thread I reluctantly came out of lurking and yes I added my two scents/shared my story on why I decided to stop posting. In my post all I was suggesting was that we try to be a bit more empathetic – there were times when I felt it was implied that I was a bad person for liking hook and I was endorsing toxic behaviors by being a CS fan. And that didn’t rub well with me. Another CSer suggested I join Tumblr, which I did and I found a more supportive CS community on there. I’m not suggesting we silence each other, I was just explaining where I was coming from and I wanted show some support to thedarkonedearie who had attempted to bring back this thread.
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
I mean you can say everyone is welcome, but it doesn’t always feel that way. Obviously criticism of hook shouldn’t be avoided at all costs on the forum and I don’t think that’s even what most CSers were asking for. At some point fair criticism of Hook and now criticism of Emma got to be pretty negative and it felt to me a bit overwhelmingly so. At that point it stopped being fun to check in on this forum frequently. Also regarding the question about why wouldn’t you want to be labeled as anti-hook, obviously it is fine if as a poster you are, but please try to empathize and understand that’s not how everyone interprets hook’s character or the CS relationship. In my professional life I actually work in gender issues and addressing social norms around toxic masculinities. I manage research projects on combatting gender based violence, especially intimate partner violence. These are issues I care deeply about and I personally don’t interpret the CS relationship as a toxic relationship. Of course there are things you can find to be problematic, every ship on the show is problematic. I am not saying that the way you interpret their relationship is wrong, it’s just different from how I interpret it. We have had different lived experiences and OUAT is a TV show where we only see snipbits of these characters lives and there is lots of room for interpretation. Once upon a time is an escape for me, it’s a fun lighted hearted show with occasional terrible writing, but I got swept up in it and one of the main reasons I continue watching is because of the CS relationship. I enjoy posting about the show on forums, but on this forum at some point it felt the negativity around hook and emma wasn’t just about them but started to feel personal. I guess I would just like to see more empathy on the forum and more acknowledgment that we interpret the characters and ships differently and that doesn’t make us bad people. We are all OUAT fans afterall
And this is exactly what I have been saying for months now. And here’s a first hand experience of a CSer who felt the need to leave bc of all the constant negativity. Sure, everyone is welcome, but why would anybody stay if their favorite characters are being called selfish, a bully, making fun of disabled kids, etc. etc. constantly. But no, that’s not the forums fault…… Get real. I’m glad I could bring a couple people back here. Bc yes, I do think balance is important. Otherwise you only see the same views over and over again and you don’t challenge yourself to see things differently or how others see things. And what happens when you only see the same opinions over and over again? You get bias and a little ignorant. I get that there are plenty of forums that are dedicated for certain ships. But not here. You guys preach that everyone is welcome. Well if that’s the motto, then you need to be more open to characters you personally hate. Otherwise, people leave, and the forums become one-sided and extremely bias. And I honestly would be ok with hating on Hook and Emma all the time. If I felt they deserved it. But people on here have become so harsh against them that is becomes unbearable at times. They don’t even see the good things Hook does now bc they have inherently labeled him as a dirty pirate who corrupted Emma. #BRINGBACKTHEBALANCE
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