The Captain Swan thread!

[thedarkonedearie]

Yeah I personally would love SF fans to engage in this forum.  I simply wanted to get people to start posting in here again, just as people post in the SF thread.  There is like legitimate animosity in this ship war haha so perhaps this wasn’t the greatest idea but I was hoping to create some balance to appease the CS fans and perhaps give a different slant on some of the Hook/Emma talk.  And again, I’m just pro-Emma so it is kind of fun for me to watch both sides strongly push their opinions on who she should/should have ended up with.

But one question I kind of wanted to pose…..and this is for everyone and let’s try not to get personal here:

Do you think that the writers planned to have Hook be the one to end up with Emma right from the beginning when they introduced him?  Or do you think they saw how much the fans liked him and switched the story to kill off Neal and begin Hook’s transformation into a better person so he can be worthy of Emma?  Do you think they killed off Neal bc they felt they couldn’t really give Hook the full spotlight as Emma’s true love if Neal was still around?  And if that’s true, do you really think they felt it was worth it to basically reset Rumple’s character by killing him off just so Hook could take center stage?

Now I may be in the minority here, but although Hook was crude and sarcastic and overly sexual early on towards Emma, I always thought they had incredible chemistry and that they played off this back and forth game of cat and mouse quite well.  I think an argument could be made that the writing early on was supposed to come off as crude but also was supposed to show that while Hook was being sarcastic and rude, there was a definite interest he had in Emma right from the start.  It started out as just sexual chemistry but perhaps the writers knew they would develop him and eventually translate that to more than just that.  And you could argue that Emma, while put off by his advances early on, was also genuinely intrigued and interested in Hook right from the start.  So put me in the boat of thinking the writers cast this dark and handsome popular pirate knowing he would eventually be Emma’s right hand man.  At the time also, I felt Neal’s character had gotten a little stale.  And it wasn’t until the cave episode in 3A when Emma talks to Neal in the cage that I genuinely cried and felt really bad for the two characters bc at that point, it was painfully obvious that Hook was going to be the one.  I know many on here believe the writers appeased fans and changed their plan and their story with Neal once Hook became so popular but I figured I’d throw the question out there on this thread.

 

[PriceofMagic]

In my opinion, killing off Neal was actually bad for CS because Emma never actually CHOSE Hook over Neal, he just won by default. Also if a “love rival” has to be killed off in order for the guy to get the girl, then that doesn’t really say “true love”.

I’ve said before about Hook and Emma being on adjustable platforms, never being equal beyond Tallahassee, she was too good for him, now he’s too good for her etc. I think the main problem with CS is that it came about when the show took a nose dive in quality so it looked like a cause and effect kind of thing eg CS happened which caused the quality decline, rather than CS happened to coincide with the show’s decline in quality.

Hook was an absolute pig in the first couple of seasons and there was absolutely no reason why Emma, the strong independent protagonist would go for him, yet she did because the writers were too lazy or incapable of writing a proper redemption arc for Hook. The fact that Hook’s misdeeds would often get overlooked or instantly forgiven by the “heroes” whilst the likes of Regina and Rumple had to earn their redemption can also make fans resentful because Regina and Rumple go through emotional pain whilst Hook get a free-pass.

Hook is actually a decent guy now but Emma is just awful. Hook gets blamed for a lot of things but in actual fact Hook is not the problem, it’s the “heroes” or more specifically Emma. When you compare season 1 and season 6 Emma they are like two different characters. We’re not talking about “walls” but personality. Emma’s writing took a jump off a cliff and because her storyline has become so Hook focussed, he gets the blame even though he’s not the problem, it’s Emma who’s the problem. To be honest, I’m half expecting Emma to go all Misery on Hook at some point in time just so that he can’t leave her.

Also it’s the fact that simple “redemption” things took ages to occur eg it took 4 seasons which is 4 YEARS real-time for Hook to genuinely apologise to Belle. The show has a problem in that it prefers to TELL rather than SHOW when it should be the other way round. For example, the show kept trying to TELL us that Hook was redeemed/changed rather than SHOWING it and what they did show was contradicting what they were telling us. I have no sympathy for Hook in 4A, it’s his own fault that he tried to mess with Rumple and got his fingers burned.

There is a lot more positive reaction towards Hook in season 6 (I like him and I used to absolutely hate him in seasons 2-5) because they are SHOWING us Hook has changed. They SHOWED him genuinely apologising to Belle and they SHOWED him stepping up to help Belle when Emma didn’t give a toss.

In conclusion, Hook is so divisive (he’s probably the marmite character of OUAT)because:

1. His redemption arc was poorly written and apparently completely happened off-screen.
2. He makes the “heroes” look bad with their blasé attitude to any wrong doing he does.
3. Emma’s character took a complete nose dive which happened to coincide with CS.
4. There was no real resolution to the CaptainSwanfire love triangle plot, it was literally killed off in 3B.
5. Other characters get pushed aside in favour of Hook which builds resentment amongst fans of those characters.
6. His attitude in season 2 and 3 was not love interest material which is what the show was trying to push for.
7. He comes out with comments about returning Milah to Rumple “Soiled” which is a massive NO if the character is meant to be the lead protagonist’s love interest.

There are tons of reasons why people don’t like Hook and/or CS. In my opinion, CS is the issue, Hook is just its unfortunate casualty.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[Michael]

I’m sorry I’m not discussing CS or anything with somebody that thinks “Emma is awful” in S6 and prefers S1 Emma when she had walls, didn’t trust anybody and wasn’t letting love in. Now she is much stronger as a person, she has her walls down, she trusts with heart and she’s embraced the power of love.

Ask yourself this. Why on Earth would a CS fan old or new that comes to this forum want to post on this supposed “Captain Swan” thread to a person that says they make each other weak. Why the heck would a CS fan want to be in that environment. Having to defend their pairing IN THEIR OWN THREAD!?

Makes zero sense. And you people still wonder why CS fans left which basically KILLED your forum. Since the most popular pairing which could generate hits for your site, doesn’t bother coming here anymore.

You don’t see me going on the Emma/Neal thread and saying that it’s statutory rape.

 

Do you think that the writers planned to have Hook be the one to end up with Emma right from the beginning when they introduced him?  Or do you think they saw how much the fans liked him and switched the story to kill off Neal and begin Hook’s transformation into a better person so he can be worthy of Emma?  Do you think they killed off Neal bc they felt they couldn’t really give Hook the full spotlight as Emma’s true love if Neal was still around?  And if that’s true, do you really think they felt it was worth it to basically reset Rumple’s character by killing him off just so Hook could take center stage?

They absolutely planned them on ending up together in the beginning. The parallels to Snowing in their first adventure, the whole notion of paralleling Neal/Emma in the past with Hook/Emma in the present. Clearly was telling the audience, Neal is the past and Hook is the future and we were right.

I’m going to reveal a spoiler that I found out from one of my good friends over in Vancouver that knows a lot about the shows BTS. Neal’s death was going to stick in S2. The reason why Neal continued on to S3 and MRJ was promoted(even though he was fully aware that his contract was so they could tell the story they wanted to in S2B in S3). That does not mean Neverland. That was in reference to Rumple/Bae as well as Hook/Emma/Neal love triangle. It was going to play out in S2B. You wonder why S2B was such a mess, well there you go. The reason why they had to basically write a pause button till S3,  was because Colin broke his leg. And was sidelined for more than half the arc. If he didn’t break his leg then what happened in S3A in regards to the love triangle and more Bae/Hook interaction would have happened in S2B. Neal’s death was going to stick in S2.

Why do you think the major focus in the love triangle was moreso Hook/Emma then Emma/Neal? All you got in regards to Emma/Neal was the cage scene which wasn’t really Emma/Neal and then the scene afterwards which had Neal tell Emma he wasn’t gonna give up which was in itself a load of BS. Because he wasn’t tested the way the others were and yet the scene ends on a close of Hook looking sad(so the focus of that scene was not Emma/Neal, but Hook/Emma again). Then in 3×10 with the whole Emma stood him up. The triangle wasn’t even a triangle. It was the Hook/Emma love story with Neal as somewhat of an obstacle. Killing him off when they did didn’t change that, the triangle was already resolved by then.

So these notions that ABC got involved and everything, wrong. Adam and Eddy gave Colin and JMO a chemistry test before they cast him as Hook. They said “oh cuss word for crap” during the test and then they knew they had their story. That’s why Hook was promoted to series regular before his first episode even aired.

So yes Hook and Emma was always the plan, right from the start. To think he was supposed to be in S1 as a main character.

[Michael]

Do you think that the writers planned to have Hook be the one to end up with Emma right from the beginning when they introduced him?  Or do you think they saw how much the fans liked him and switched the story to kill off Neal and begin Hook’s transformation into a better person so he can be worthy of Emma?  Do you think they killed off Neal bc they felt they couldn’t really give Hook the full spotlight as Emma’s true love if Neal was still around?  And if that’s true, do you really think they felt it was worth it to basically reset Rumple’s character by killing him off just so Hook could take center stage?

They absolutely planned them on ending up together in the beginning. The parallels to Snowing in their first adventure, the whole notion of paralleling Neal/Emma in the past with Hook/Emma in the present. Clearly was telling the audience, Neal is the past and Hook is the future and we were right.

I’m going to reveal a spoiler that I found out from one of my good friends over in Vancouver that knows a lot about the shows BTS. Neal’s death was going to stick in S2. The reason why Neal continued on to S3 and MRJ was promoted(even though he was fully aware that his contract was so they could tell the story they wanted to in S2B in S3). That does not mean Neverland. That was in reference to Rumple/Bae as well as Hook/Emma/Neal love triangle. It was going to play out in S2B. You wonder why S2B was such a mess, well there you go. The reason why they had to basically write a pause button till S3,  was because Colin broke his leg. And was sidelined for more than half the arc. If he didn’t break his leg then what happened in S3A in regards to the love triangle and more Bae/Hook interaction would have happened in S2B. Neal’s death was going to stick in S2.

Why do you think the major focus in the love triangle was moreso Hook/Emma then Emma/Neal? All you got in regards to Emma/Neal was the cage scene which wasn’t really Emma/Neal and then the scene afterwards which had Neal tell Emma he wasn’t gonna give up which was in itself a load of BS. Because he wasn’t tested the way the others were and yet the scene ends on a close of Hook looking sad(so the focus of that scene was not Emma/Neal, but Hook/Emma again). Then in 3×10 with the whole Emma stood him up. The triangle wasn’t even a triangle. It was the Hook/Emma love story with Neal as somewhat of an obstacle. Killing him off when they did didn’t change that, the triangle was already resolved by then.

So these notions that ABC got involved and everything, wrong. Adam and Eddy gave Colin and JMO a chemistry test before they cast him as Hook. They said “oh shit” during the test and then they knew they had their story. That’s why Hook was promoted to series regular before his first episode even aired.

So yes Hook and Emma was always the plan, right from the start.

[TheWatcher]

Do you think that the writers planned to have Hook be the one to end up with Emma right from the beginning when they introduced him? Or do you think they saw how much the fans liked him and switched the story to kill off Neal and begin Hook’s transformation into a better person so he can be worthy of Emma? Do you think they killed off Neal bc they felt they couldn’t really give Hook the full spotlight as Emma’s true love if Neal was still around?

Parts of this. I think 1) Hook was always intended to be a villain who would turn hero and join the Scooby gang for an adventure 2) That Hook and Emma were always supposed to have this “Will they/Won’t they” thing going on. Everyone admits they had/have chemistry, that is undeniable. 3) That Neal wasn’t planned to die. He was too big of importance to the story and characters to have died without doing anything or resolving anything with anyone. No way that was planned. His death as a way to pave the road for CS? Sure. Emma would never have been able to go on had he lived (Emma said it in the show, JMO said it in a panel I think.) And just imagine how Hook would be perceived had Neal still been around. Look at the things Hook does now. Having Neal there as a constant comparison would only make Hook look worse (and I don’t mean this as a bash against Hook, but outside of Emma he has no story. Bae could still be a valid part of this story without being with Emma. Hook can’t. He’d constantly feel “in the way”, at least for me personally. Neal seems like a pretty decent dude, Hook is still a work in progress who thus far is still making excuses for his actions and not facing punishment for them). So yeah, I think in order for CS ship to sail, there had to be no one else for Hook to “compete” against. But most importantly:

I think the show itself, in a meta way, was supposed to be a new, original, modern, unconventional fairytale with the original characters (Neal, Emma, and Henry) being the stars. I don’t believe for one second Captain Hook was ever intended to be the endgame for Emma.

Especially up against Neal or Graham. Seriously, I think Graham would have given everyone a run for their money, even Neal.

Hook and Emma having chemistry from the start, flirting with eachother from the start, or whatever doesn’t really make me feel like that’s a sign  they were meant to be endgame. The entire story of Emma and  Neal makes me see that was supposed to be something major that got sidelined.

So put me in the boat of thinking the writers cast this dark and handsome popular pirate knowing he would eventually be Emma’s right hand man

Yeah, Right Hand Man. Not her husband, in my view. I always felt Hook and Emma would be flirtacious and all that, but in the end would just end up as friends. He’d be the Jacob to her Bella, the Damien to her Elena, the Eric to her Sookie. The Spike to her Buffy….. Okay, I’m all out of examples, but you get my point. I felt it was a huge missed opputunity making Hook so Emma centered instead of focusing on him, Rump, and Bae with Emma being secondary to that. I don’t feel he was supposed to live past S3A because it got to a point where it felt like he would just be there for no reason other than to be on screen for a moment. As Regina called him “the pirate mascot”.

So yeah, I think what kept Hook here was the fact that his character was popular and nothing more, and the story ( which i think started losing ratings more around S3) probably figured banking on him would save the show. It didn’t. And now with a good portion of the remaining watchers being those who are content with CS, it wouldn’t make sense to get rid of him now.

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[TheWatcher]

You don’t see me going on the Emma/Neal thread and saying that it’s statutory rape.

Actually, you did do that…..

You were all up in the SF thread calling us bitter this and hateful that, and I was the one who posted the link to the CS thread for you to come to, which you never did at the time.

 

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[Michael]

That awkward moment when 3/4 of those pairings are the endgame…..

Anyways Neal was meant to die. Him and Emma were never gonna be endgame. His death was supposed to stick at the end of S2.

CS was always the story, it was always the story of Emma and Killian. 🙂

I can’t wait to see what’s next  for them next season. Wouldn’t shock me if they have a baby that’s a TL/Savior baby.

[TheWatcher]

Buffy and Spike didn’t end up together, if I recall correctly even though it’s been years. Jacob and Bella didn’t end up together. He ended up with her toddler. Sookie and Eric damn sure didn’t end up together. Sookie wound up with Sam in the books and some random guy who we didn’t even see in the tv show.  And while my knowledge of TVD is really faulty, I’m not actually certain whether or not Damien (Damon? Desmond?) ended up with Elena because I heard it was Stefan in the books. So either one of us can’t do math or 3/4th means something different to the other or we saw different versions of one of those things. Even if I take an L on TVD that’s still only 1/4th that ended up endgame.

And even then, I’m talking about personality. Hook kinda fills that required “Bad Boy” option that every love triangle has to have. The one who is just an alternate option for the “girl” to have some fun with for a while. Not usually the endgame. The leather pants wearing bad boy

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[Michael]

Damon and Elena ended up together and Buffy and Spike are absolutely endgame. Just look at the continuation of the show they’re doing through the comics. They’re 100% together and even engaged.

[TheWatcher]

Damon and Elena ended up together and Buffy and Spike are absolutely endgame. Just look at the continuation of the show they’re doing through the comics. They’re 100% together and even engaged.

Quote

But…if thats 2… and you said 3/4….

Ya know what I’m just going to let that one slide. Anyway, have the Buffy comics actually finished yet? Or are Buffy and Spike together at the moment currently and your just hoping it lasts all the way until forever? And a google check says:

The Hunters: Destiny Rising, Elena finally chooses Stefan over Damon to be her eternal life partner and mate.”

to my knowledge it only seems Damon and Elena end up together in the show but googling them is difficult given it seems no one actually cares about the books(?). So even if we take adaptations and  other material that’s still not even half

But yeah. None of that makes me take back what I said. Hook still fits that archetype In that love triangle

 

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

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