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The Spike to her Buffy….. Okay, I’m all out of examples, but you get my point.
I think this is an unfair comparison to make.
1. Spike and Buffy are much better written characters.
2. CS hasn’t reached the levels of toxicness that Spuffy did. Spuffy were physically violent on both sides. The writers could’ve stopped it at a redeemable place- Buffy calls time on the relationship because she realises how unhealthy it is for her AND for Spike- and the two try to remain civil and respectful towards each other. Unfortunately the writers didn’t stop it there then they ignored the consequences of the attempted rape.
3. Spike didn’t suddenly redeem himself in order to get into Buffy’s pants. He was a villain in season 2 where killing Buffy was more a side quest and his main focus was finding a cure for Drusilla. Season 3 was just a drunken revisit. Season 4 was when Spike and Buffy became frenemies. Season 5 was when Spike took an interest in Buffy and started to show that he could do good for non-selfish reasons after demonstrating obsessive behaviour. Also Buffy called Spike on his wrong doing rather than just ignoring it.
4. In a scene where Spike feels entitled to praise for “not feeding on bleeding disaster victims”, both Buffy and Spike have valid points of view. Buffy is right for calling him out that he shouldn’t expect praise for a basic act of decency, however, Spike actually does deserve a little credit since he IS a vampire and all that blood would be making his senses go wild.
There is tons of other reasons as well that I’ve not got time to list.
Do I think A&E were trying to go for a Spike/Buffy dynamic minus the toxicness? Yes, cause this show seems to be stealing more and more things from Buffy. Do I think they were successful? No. A similarity that CS and Spuffy do have though is where the relationship storyline became the character’s main focus. This is certainly true of Hook and Spike (in the later seasons). With Emma and Buffy, Spuffy became a heavy focus for Buffy, however she did have other things going on. Emma just focusses on Hook.
It’s been said before, Emma’s tropes have changed. Emma was THE KNIGHT whereas now she’s the maiden in the tower waiting for her pirate to rescue her. Buffy remained THE CHOSEN ONE despite Spuffy happening. The final scene between Spuffy was where Buffy told Spike she loved him because he was about to die and he turned around and said “No you don’t but thanks for saying it”. That was a powerful moment between the two.
You don’t see me going on the Emma/Neal thread and saying that it’s statutory rape.
Actually, you did do that…..
You were all up in the SF thread calling us bitter this and hateful that, and I was the one who posted the link to the CS thread for you to come to, which you never did at the time.
Lol how Michael just chooses to ignore this point and change the subject because he/she knows he’s/she’s not got a valid comeback.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixYeah I’m not bothering with this anymore. I’m going to contact a mod because this is ridiculous. In this thread we shouldn’t have to defend the pairing, or get bombarded with people saying they don’t like CS, Emma, and Hook and the millions of reasons why. I don’t care about what you have to say. I will never see things the way you do.
This should be a place for CS shippers to freely post about CS. Not having to deal with haters like you and defend our pairing constantly.
Yeah I’m not bothering with this anymore. I’m going to contact a mod because this is ridiculous. In this thread we shouldn’t have to defend the pairing, or get bombarded with people saying they don’t like CS, Emma, and Hook and the millions of reasons why. I don’t care about what you have to say. I will never see things the way you do. This should be a place for CS shippers to freely post about CS. Not having to deal with haters like you and defend our pairing constantly.
Yes, this is getting ridiculous. First, you say that you want more activity in the CS thread. So @DOD resurrects the CS thread. People start posting. In depth conversations ensue. Then, you get upset about people having different opinions from you. You can’t have it both ways. This thread has been quite lively recently because a number of non-CSers joined in the discussion. If you want this to stop, that’s fine – I personally am happy to leave you and @DOD alone to discuss pancake breakfasts. But @DOD has indicated that he does enjoy in depth discussion. So the two of you may be at cross purposes there. At this point, I think it’d be great if you and @DOD and @Aglepta and the mods decided on some boundaries, because this constant moaning and squabbling is getting tiresome.
Do you think that the writers planned to have Hook be the one to end up with Emma right from the beginning when they introduced him? Or do you think they saw how much the fans liked him and switched the story to kill off Neal and begin Hook’s transformation into a better person so he can be worthy of Emma? Do you think they killed off Neal bc they felt they couldn’t really give Hook the full spotlight as Emma’s true love if Neal was still around? And if that’s true, do you really think they felt it was worth it to basically reset Rumple’s character by killing him off just so Hook could take center stage?
Interesting question DOD — I think it’s been raised before somewhere else on this forum, but a few years ago — so in retrospect while 3 years ago I would have squarely laid the blame for Neal’s death at CS’s feet, I’m not so sure anymore — mainly based on the way Robin was handled. Honestly, I don’t think authorial intent means anything here, though, because the brains behind the show and the original idea have changed over time. I think the writing on OUAT has, after S1, been emergent and reactive — this is largely written by what you might call “pantsers” (rather than “plotters”).
Anyway, was CS intended from the start? I think the only evidence we can reliably say we have is a kind of structural analysis of OUAT — the story is very deliberately structural, in the way that most fairytales and myths actually are. So, from that perspective, no CS was not intended from the start. At the core of OUAT is the crazy kinship chart that ties all the characters together. If you actually plot it out, you can see how the characters who belong to the same kinship generation/strata have their story run parallel — I have an analysis of Rumbelle vs Snowing kicking around somewhere on this forum that speaks to this. Anyway, Neal and Emma were originally plotted as structural parallels/foils. Hook was later retrofitted to have more parallels with Emma, but structurally, it doesn’t quite work. Here’s the deal: Hook belongs to a different structural “strata” than Emma — he is on the same kinship diagram level as Rumple, being Neal’s de-facto step-father. Lets imagine that Milah survived, but stayed with Hook, and Neal survived, and stayed with Emma. That would make Hook Emma’s step-father-in-law. Now, yes, none of this happened, but again, this is a structural analysis. In modern Western culture, we have a strong kinship preference for marrying within one’s generational strata. I.e. we don’t like to marry our classificatory uncle. There’s also generally a kinship taboo against marrying up the affine tree — you can marry laterally with not too may eyebrows raised, but not up or down. There’s in fact a whole genre of fictional tragiromances that explore this (for example, Damage with Juliette Binoche and Jeremy Irons comes to mind). Do you see what I’m driving at? I think if CS were intended from the start as a love triangle with Emma, and with CS being endgame, they would have placed Hook in the classificatory “brother” category to Neal, not step-father/ classificatory uncle. The reason I’m saying this is that this matters enormously for most myths and fairytales, and in matters enormously for how OUAT was originally designed around a very structurally symmetrical kinship diagram. What I think happened is that they saw the chemistry and audience response, and thought – eh, what the heck, lets do this.
Now, did CS effectively kill Neal? No, I don’t think so. I think Neal was killed for the same reason Robin was killed: 1) because the writers aren’t interested in writing a “good” male character without some deep flaw that must be overcome over the course of the story (David doesn’t count, since David is part of the two headed/one hearted entity that is Snowing). And 2) because this show has a lot about one character paying for the sins of another: Robin died sort of “exculpating” Regina and Neal died sort of “exculpating” Rumple (which is to say, they died because of a kind of intractable karmic law that means that villains don’t get happy endings). If they were consistent with this rule, I would not be entirely surprised if, in the end, Emma dies — she is now in that classificatory category to Hook as Robin was to Regina and Neal was to Rumple (the villain always loses the thing he/she loves most).
[mod]
This is a gentle reminder that this is the CS safe haven, the same as the SF thread is for SFers. There was a desire for balance hence this thread being brought back up but we’re going to play by the same rules as we do in other shipping threads, please, because things are clearly only gong to become more and more hostile.
I don’t want CSers–either current posters or lurkers who are hesitant to post because of negativity and combative posts–to feel uncomfortable.
People have asked for boundaries so we’re doing this S3 style, I suppose, until a balance or equilibrium sorts itself out. You are free to read any thread you wish. You are free to have conversations, in fact we encourage that. But shipper threads have a different set of guidelines in order to avoid this sort of bickering and hostility. Please make sure to follow all forum rules, however. I had to fix one or two language things and no foul language is a BIG rule here.
[/mod]
ETA: also! Having read back some of the responses, the ad hominem attacks stop now, guys. That’s beneath all of us.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Just watched “Where bluebirds fly” and was pleasantly surprised by CS this episode.
OUAT has been missing the little domestic moments between the characters for a long while so it was nice to see the little wedding planning with the Charmings as they try and find a suitable wedding venue, even the pancake scene was a nice little show of domesticity.
Lol at Hook having to take a cold shower after Snow walked in and put a halt to proceedings, we all know why. For some reason I’m just imagining Hook singing “A pirate’s life” from Disney’s Peter Pan in the shower. It was clear that Emma and Hook had had sex pre-pancakes, I even think Emma may have been wearing something of Hook’s. I do think they could’ve trimmed down on the kissing which seemed to go on slightly too long, especially in a show where every minute counts, so every second is valuable.
Emma finally seemed to act like old Emma personality wise. The costuming choices are still a little dubious, but hair wise, it was vintage Emma. Also, I’m not if JMo’s make up was done differently this episode or whether Emma just had a bit of spark around her personality, but the character just seemed to have a bit of colour in her cheeks and actually looked healthy in comparison to previous episodes.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felixi thought that scene was nice too.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICFor some reason I’m just imagining Hook singing “A pirate’s life” from Disney’s Peter Pan in the shower.
This made me giggle. 🙂
Also, I agree I like the domestic moments too, and really enjoyed the moment between Snow and Emma over the wedding planning book. I also enjoyed hearing about Hook’s ideas for the wedding, of course he’d want to get married on the Jolly Roger! While I realize the JR might not be the ideal venue, maybe they can incorporate it into the wedding somehow since it is a big part of Hook’s life. I’m now imaging them pinning an enormous “Just Married” sign on the ship and having Emma and Hook sail off after the reception. But…. considering the final battle and all I’m sure that’s not going to happen.
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
I also enjoyed hearing about Hook’s ideas for the wedding, of course he’d want to get married on the Jolly Roger!
Which is completely understandable. Thats such a Hook thing to want and i think they should have done that. I just dont get the choices made for the wardrobe or potentially setting of their wedding, asuming its in teh EF castle, because those are not Hook/Emma things. To dress the way they are dressed, to get married in the castle. Like c’mon, A&E. Im not even a CS shipper, but if your gonna do this thing, do it right!
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC
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