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Stelio Kontos wrote: I had this interesting thought I wanted to run by my fellow shipmates. What if Pan forces Emma into a sleeping curse which as we know requires true love’s kiss to break. So then at that point either Hook or Neal’s kiss will be what saves her?!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. This is not what I want for her. I want her to make the choice. Maybe that’s just me?? I’ve seen this thought floating around before and i really dislike it. Now, AFTER she makes the choice i’d be happy for a curse to be broken via TLK, because we know who’ll break it hehe. But not before she chooses.
I agree. I want this too.
As for the back to page one issue. It happens to all threads that are over 100 pages in length. I have absolutely no idea why, I wish I did cause it’s annoying. Ok! Carry on
Aw! Maybe we should consider starting a new thread soon? Volume 2 of Captain Swan! Perhaps the next thread could be located under the character section since that’s where most of the ‘shipper threads are located?
[adrotate group="5"]Thank you, thank you, thank you to everyone who has said they haven’t been able to “bond” with Neal as a character. This has been a major source of confusion for me with the show and I am so relieved to hear that others feel the same. I am so NOT an actor basher and I truly did NOT feel like the problem was with MRJ because I feel like he does a great job (especially in the scene where he first saw Henry and asked if he was his son – ripped my heart out!!) but somehow I keep feeling like he doesn’t fit in with rest of the characters and now I know why! I think the link to the post about how we have really no details on Neal as an individual except in relation to helping the other characters develop or explain the other character’s “walls” has made him somewhat flat as a character compared to the others. Even using Belle as a comparison is tough because Belle has so many redeeming qualities because of the GOOD she has brought out of Rumple and that fact that her continuing presence is needed in order for Rumple to be reminded of who he really is and WHY he wants to be a better man – because this genuinely sweet, intelligent, strong, woman believes in the good in his heart and soul makes her necessary to the show. Neal may love Henry but so does everyone else on the show – his love doesn’t really do anything particularly special for Henry. And even if he really does love Emma, that love won’t really do anything special for her – the damage for Emma was already done long ago and she will always wonder if she can really trust him again so he isn’t going to do much to “build” her character.
Here’s the thing that bothers me the most about Neal. I LOVE Baelfire (probably because the kid that plays him does such a great job) he always seemed wise beyond his years when he interacted with his dad both before and after he became the Dark One. But for someone who was always criticizing his father for making the wrong choices (power over family and love) he certainly never learned how to take his own advice and he never learned how to learn from his own mistakes. He may have left NL and physically grown older but I don’t think he ever grew up. The other characters may all struggle with doing the right thing and may falter back and forth but they ALL seem to learn from their mistakes and want to improve. With Neal I feel like he thinks he is just fine the way he is and doesn’t need to change. I don’t think he even recognizes that he has issues – I think he only sees other people’s issues – primarily his father’s. He may say he loves Emma and Henry but he doesn’t seem motivated enough by either of them to want to make changes. Take for example, trying to save Henry on the island. Instead of thinking about how Pan works and thinking about how his father has been trying to change and reconcile with him he is still acting like a bratty teen and making rash decisions to “save” Henry which resulted in him doing exactly what Pan wanted him to do – so Pan got Henry back and Neal was captured. This is compared to Emma who has recognized that in order to save Henry everyone needs to be mature and put aside their personal issues and use their individual strengths to get Henry back. Even though everyone might not like having to do this, at the end of the day they all know it is the only way to save him so they are all working together. It has taken growth and maturity among all of the characters in order to accomplish this. Neal hasn’t even considered trying to JOIN the rest of the group to help, even when he knows that they think he is dead!!! He doesn’t seem to even care that Emma would be heartbroken thinking he is dead. He doesn’t even seem to consider himself part of Henry’s “family” – he is just doing everything on his own. Meanwhile, Emma and Regina are making decisions together for “our” son and saying “WE love you” to him. They are co-parenting Henry even though they don’t like each other.
Then you have Hook who isn’t Henry’s father but wants to help save Henry because of Emma. He also WANTS to grow as a person and has learned from his mistakes. He is mature enough to have learned from the past and because of that he can make decisions that help save David and Henry, and he is being supportive or what Emma needs. Everything he does he does for Emma, yet because they are so well suited for each other as he does things to help her he also ends up growing and learning himself and becoming a better man, which in turn makes Emma more impressed with him which gives him more confidence. Because of what he has been doing he is, in some ways, becoming a member of the family by being accepted by David and Mary Margaret. Neal IS a member of the family but won’t even try to join them and hasn’t ever seemed to care about trying to bond with Emma’s dad.
@ Captain Eala – WOW, was that really the stats of the FB page for Good Form & the Kiss! (I have kept off of all but 2 or 3 trusted sites/pages since there was so much Hook bashing going on before the season started & I got sick of it all). That is amazing & pretty much shows what most the fans/viewers want, so that to me is even more of an indicator than anything else- they’d risk loosing a massive chuck of the fandom by resolving Hook/Killian with a side character & phasing him out (my worst nightmare for the show- I LOVE Hook/Killian lol).
But you see this is the beauty of it. A+E have made it more than clear that they don’t do fan service i.e. they’re not going to change their original story just because it’s something the fans want. SO logically you can follow up on this by saying that they’re going to write characters and stories in such a way to have people rooting for a certain character over another eg. Hook over Neal. They have made Killian into a fully rounded character, with a story and experiences. Whereas with Neal? Nada.
If their intention has been (and i doubt it very much) to make us love both Killian AND Neal and root for them equally, well they’ve been doing it wrong, and are continuing to do so. I’m not completely certain but i’m nearly sure that “Good Form” had the highest viewership of the season so far, because of Killian and the CS kiss. And “Nasty Habits” has had the worst viewership so far, because of Neal.
I do feel Hook/Killian should be there for her in the best friend role, if they don’t further the CS plot this season, at least then no one could say it’s just a ‘fling’ for Hook…. Or Emma.
No I wouldn’t like them to be best friends… not at all. But it’s redundant anyway because it isn’t the direction they’re going for with Emma and Killian. Charming and Killian yes.
Lol – they are going to further the CS plot this season, don’t worry. Emma could not have been more transparent with her “one-time thing” (lololololol yeah right Emma). Killian said “as you wish” – you do not say that without the connotation of love, i’m sorry, you don’t.
I guess I REALLY want Emma to have love like Snowing has (not the same as Snowing- although now I actually think about it CS & Snowing situations & even characters to a certain extent, are VERY similar lol), but the same depth & loyalty from her eventual partner as Snow has from Charming. I just really feel she deserves it & Killian fits that bill exactly!
I love the way you used partner there, because Killian and only Killian fits that bill for her. Over and over this season the writers and directors have paired them up with each other, emphasising that they are a team, just like Snowing. Again, intentional. Although, the body language when Neal comes back into the picture will be interesting to analyse…..
Aw! Maybe we should consider starting a new thread soon? Volume 2 of Captain Swan! Perhaps the next thread could be located under the character section since that’s where most of the ‘shipper threads are located?
I don’t mind, whatever everyone wants to do. But either way it’s going to jump back to page 1 after 100 pages, so unless we keep starting new threads, we’re going to have a lot of them (since you know, we talk a lot – lol!). Actually i’d probably prefer to have just the one, so there’s no confusion and so old threads don’t get buried. But that’s just me!
Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss
@rumplegoldfan — There’s so much truth to that lengthy post, it hurts.
I can’t address all of the points but yeah, Neal learned the hard way, working on his own and away from the group to save Henry wasn’t one of he smartest moves he’s made since arriving in Neverland. He managed to free Henry, for about 2 minutes before Pan captured them both.
Emma and Regina, who are bitter rivals, are coming together this season and working together to save Henry. Even though they may not like each other, the one thing that bonds them together is Henry. And both women recognize that they are co-parents where Henry is concerned and at the end of the day, they both love him.
And Emma’s speech in the premiere, that they’re going to need all their strengths/skills in order to work together as a team to save Henry. These are a group of people we would have never imagined actually setting aside their differences and working together for a common goal. That is awesome.
I don’t mind, whatever everyone wants to do. But either way it’s going to jump back to page 1 after 100 pages, so unless we keep starting new threads, we’re going to have a lot of them (since you know, we talk a lot – lol!). Actually i’d probably prefer to have just the one, so there’s no confusion and so old threads don’t get buried. But that’s just me!
Okay. We’ll keep the single thread for now.
But for someone who was always criticizing his father for making the wrong choices (power over family and love) he certainly never learned how to take his own advice and he never learned how to learn from his own mistakes. He may have left NL and physically grown older but I don’t think he ever grew up. The other characters may all struggle with doing the right thing and may falter back and forth but they ALL seem to learn from their mistakes and want to improve. With Neal I feel like he thinks he is just fine the way he is and doesn’t need to change. I don’t think he even recognizes that he has issues – I think he only sees other people’s issues – primarily his father’s. He may say he loves Emma and Henry but he doesn’t seem motivated enough by either of them to want to make changes.
YES. Myself and MysteryKat were discussing Neal’s hypocrisy after “Nasty Habits” and how Neal does immoral things and yet holds his father up to some lofty standard that he doesn’t really have. Sure he doesn’t kill people. But he has done things that have hurt people.
And YES Neal thinks he doesn’t need to change, he’s “Neal” now, not “Baelfire”. It really disturbed me when he didn’t even think to question his choice when he decided that Roland was the best way to get to NL.
Neal hasn’t even considered trying to JOIN the rest of the group to help, even when he knows that they think he is dead!!! He doesn’t seem to even care that Emma would be heartbroken thinking he is dead. He doesn’t even seem to consider himself part of Henry’s “family” – he is just doing everything on his own.
I personally feel you’re being a bit hard on him here, but that’s just me. I think Nasty Habits was actually the only episode I reasonably liked him in (except for taking away his fathers choice). And I’m sure he was on the way to the rest of the group when he met Rumple.
I have an awful feeling he’s going to expect Emma to run into his arms and they’ll be a couple again straight away. I could be wrong here. But i feel like he’s hanging on to his and Emma’s relationship (he never fully got closure either) because he doesn’t want to deal with the fact that Tamara, the woman he moved on with and was genuinely in love with, betrayed him and never loved him. The way he had his hands over their campfire and was like “Emma” in this happy eager voice – he seems to be forgetting or not acknowledging all the hurt he caused her. Even on the beach when he apologised to her last season – the apology was all about him, his regrets, and not the extreme pain and anguish he caused Emma. He wanted to feel better about himself.
Then you have Hook who isn’t Henry’s father but wants to help save Henry because of Emma. He also WANTS to grow as a person and has learned from his mistakes. He is mature enough to have learned from the past and because of that he can make decisions that help save David and Henry, and he is being supportive or what Emma needs. Everything he does he does for Emma, yet because they are so well suited for each other as he does things to help her he also ends up growing and learning himself and becoming a better man, which in turn makes Emma more impressed with him which gives him more confidence.
Lalalalalala. There’s the whole “partnership”, “TL makes you a better person” and “TL changes you” things again. And it applies to both Killian and Emma.
Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss
rumplegoldfan wrote: But for someone who was always criticizing his father for making the wrong choices (power over family and love) he certainly never learned how to take his own advice and he never learned how to learn from his own mistakes. He may have left NL and physically grown older but I don’t think he ever grew up. The other characters may all struggle with doing the right thing and may falter back and forth but they ALL seem to learn from their mistakes and want to improve. With Neal I feel like he thinks he is just fine the way he is and doesn’t need to change. I don’t think he even recognizes that he has issues – I think he only sees other people’s issues – primarily his father’s. He may say he loves Emma and Henry but he doesn’t seem motivated enough by either of them to want to make changes.
YES. Myself and MysteryKat were discussing Neal’s hypocrisy after “Nasty Habits” and how Neal does immoral things and yet holds his father up to some lofty standard that he doesn’t really have. Sure he doesn’t kill people. But he has done things that have hurt people. And YES Neal thinks he doesn’t need to change, he’s “Neal” now, not “Baelfire”. It really disturbed me when he didn’t even think to question his choice when he decided that Roland was the best way to get to NL.
YES!!! I totally agree!!
But i feel like he’s hanging on to his and Emma’s relationship (he never fully got closure either) because he doesn’t want to deal with the fact that Tamara, the woman he moved on with and was genuinely in love with, betrayed him and never loved him. The way he had his hands over their campfire and was like “Emma” in this happy eager voice – he seems to be forgetting or not acknowledging all the hurt he caused her.
I don’t defend Neal very often but he does realize from the premiere that he did hurt Emma. The thing that always got me, whenever Emma tried to express to him how hurt she was, he laughed at it or brushed it off like her feelings didn’t mean anything. That’s why I loved Emma’s epiphany speech from Nasty Habits because it’s the first time, she’s able to openly acknowledge how much Neal’s leaving hurt her. And girl, she didn’t hold anything back.
Even on the beach when he apologized to her last season – the apology was all about him, his regrets, and not the extreme pain and anguish he caused Emma. He wanted to feel better about himself.
I agree with this. It was good closure, something Emma needed but I agree, the speech tended be more about his pain and misgivings and less about Emma and how it hurt her.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. This is not what I want for her. I want her to make the choice. Maybe that’s just me?? I’ve seen this thought floating around before and i really dislike it. Now, AFTER she makes the choice i’d be happy for a curse to be broken via TLK, because we know who’ll break it hehe. But not before she chooses.
but if only one of them can break it doesn’t that kind of say that she is choosing to love one over the other? For the kiss to work the feeling has to be mutual right? That’s why I like it because both Neal and Hook care about Emma but for the kiss to work only the one she loves can save her.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. This is not what I want for her. I want her to make the choice. Maybe that’s just me?? I’ve seen this thought floating around before and i really dislike it. Now, AFTER she makes the choice i’d be happy for a curse to be broken via TLK, because we know who’ll break it hehe. But not before she chooses.
but if only one of them can break it doesn’t that kind of say that she is choosing to love one over the other? For the kiss to work the feeling has to be mutual right? That’s why I like it because both Neal and Hook care about Emma but for the kiss to work only the one she loves can save her.
@ Stelio Kontos-I think so too! I would like to see the man Emma truly loves save her. Then there would be no question about who her true love really is. (We all know it’s HOOK, but there would definitely be no more questioning it after that.)
@ Rumplesgirl- Thank you 🙂
But you see this is the beauty of it. A+E have made it more than clear that they don’t do fan service i.e. they’re not going to change their original story just because it’s something the fans want. SO logically you can follow up on this by saying that they’re going to write characters and stories in such a way to have people rooting for a certain character over another eg. Hook over Neal. They have made Killian into a fully rounded character, with a story and experiences. Whereas with Neal? Nada
Yes, they have- However, they do consider changing things up depending on how it’s received (ie changing who Neal was & Mulan- I forget the couple of other things now). It might not be for major plot stuff (well ok Neal’s story is),but it is still to service the fans.
Logically you also have to consider that we haven’t got to the end of the season yet, none of us know what they have in store for Neal in the back half- for all we know Emma & Neal could end up trapped somewhere together in the 2nd half *shudders*- who knows lol. As long as Hook is about & Emma is about CS will happen- we just have different ideas on when & I’m honestly happy to be wrong & have them together this season- as long as it’s not just Emma harking back to teenage dating/BF & trying out who fits her & who doesnt (like what was meant to happen last season BEFORE Colin broke himself & couldn’t film) 😉
I don’t defend Neal very often but he does realize from the premiere that he did hurt Emma. The thing that always got me, whenever Emma tried to express to him how hurt she was, he laughed at it or brushed it off like her feelings didn’t mean anything. That’s why I loved Emma’s epiphany speech from Nasty Habits because it’s the first time, she’s able to openly acknowledge how much Neal’s leaving hurt her. And girl, she didn’t hold anything back.
Oh yes, I think he realises he hurt her, but I don’t think he realises the depths to which he did. He abandoned her, left her thinking she was unloveable for over a decade, she gave up her son because he wasn’t around to look after him and she was in jail. After he gave her the keys to the bug, he gave her hope that he was going to be waiting for her in Tallahassee, their dream. He doesn’t know all of the consequences his actions had on Emma yet. But I have hope that he will soon, since we know that “truths about Hook and Neal will be made public”. I cannot wait for that, because he never really considered her feelings beyond how he “broke her heart” but it was a HECK of a lot more than just that.
One thing I would be really disappointed with is if the writers don’t deal with the effect Tamara’s betrayal had on him. A+E have said that he was in love with her, fake persona or not, and that he had moved on from Emma. A common theme with SF is that they gave up on each other – Emma in Tallahassee and Neal with Tamara. They didn’t fully move on – but they did give up. That is not TL. Anyway, the fact that Neal hasn’t dealt with the whole Tamara thing and is running around professing his love for Emma irks me a lot. I don’t think Tamara has been laid to rest – Tink has her watch after all. To me that means that Neal will soon find out that his ex-fiancé is dead.
He also seems to be attempting to fool himself with his reasons for letting Emma go. When he was telling Mulan in 3×01 he phrased it in the best possible way for himself – that he let her go to fulfil her destiny. No mention of abandoning her. No mention of the fact that he was also trying to run from his father.
In 3×03 he was saying he wanted another chance. But he had more than one chance to go back to her – 2 that I can think of, and he had several chances while he was in SB to tell her his real feelings. Do you think Charming would have passed up on those chances to make it up to Snow? Do you think Killian would have? Because I don’t think they would have. Once they had their second chance they would have taken it.
But if only one of them can break it doesn’t that kind of say that she is choosing to love one over the other? For the kiss to work the feeling has to be mutual right? That’s why I like it because both Neal and Hook care about Emma but for the kiss to work only the one she loves can save her.
I can see how people would think that but I don’t see it that way. I want her to make a conscious choice. I want her to struggle over letting him in, letting down her walls completely to him. I want to see both of them come to depend on each other emotionally, and in all other ways.
I don’t want to see Emma’s “choice” being made in the form of TLK. I really don’t, because the writers have emphasised to us so much Emma’s choice has been taken away from her so many times, and that she hates that. And TLK would be another way of taking away her conscious choice. Ugh, the thought of Neal and Killian queuing up over her cursed body to kiss her – just ugh. UGH. I don’t like it. Sorry, that’s just my opinion….
Anyway choice is a CS theme – “I’d pick you” “You chose her”. To solve her TL dilemma via curse would be completely taking away from that theme, which I don’t believe the writers will do.
Yes, they have- However, they do consider changing things up depending on how it’s received (ie changing who Neal was & Mulan- I forget the couple of other things now). It might not be for major plot stuff (well ok Neal’s story is),but it is still to service the fans. Logically you also have to consider that we haven’t got to the end of the season yet, none of us know what they have in store for Neal in the back half- for all we know Emma & Neal could end up trapped somewhere together in the 2nd half *shudders*- who knows lol.
But that’s the thingggggggggggggggggg. Neal’s story ISN’T major plot stuff in my opinion. Neal is NOT A MAIN CHARACTER. He’s a supporting character. That’s it. The fact that A+E said that they don’t do fan service for their OVERALL storyline means that their integral parts to the story aren’t all that expendable. Whereas, they considered making Baelfire and Neal two different people – that’s HUGE. Neal is expendable. His story is not congruent to the overall arc. He didn’t even get a proper poster, we don’t know what his NL arc is, apart from some vague “second chance” thing. But second chance at what? With Emma or with Rumple? I’m leaning towards Rumple. Because that’s the relationship that Pan attacked. The media are all talking about CS, the kiss got over two weeks promotion for goodness sake. Whenever Swanfire is mentioned it’s “the fans should be worried”. We’re getting a SF reunion this week, but the focus is all on Killian, what Killian is going to do, how Killian is going to handle it. In a real romantic triangle, both of the men vying for the woman, or vice versa get equal media and episode time. Compared to CS, we have heard SQUAT about SF. And this is done on purpose. As to the fact that we don’t know what’s coming for Neal is the second half? Well to my mind that doesn’t matter. They are trying to establish a “triangle” in this half of the season. I don’t give a hoot about what they give us about Neal in the next half. The fact that they are very clearly promoting Killian first and foremost says it all to me.
Ugh, this triangle thing is so exhausting…. sorry if I got overly vehement….
Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss
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