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I don’t know if anyone mentioned this yet but on YouTube there are some comments on one of the videos of Killian’s secret in the Echo Cave regarding what happens immediately after he reveals his secret.
The camera shows Emma’s face and she is clearly emotionally affected and then, while the camera is still on ONLY Emma, unexpectedly the earth moves!
The phrase “Did the earth move for you?” is typically used in reference to sex but has also come to describe a sudden feeling of intense emotional connection to another person. So it is interesting that Emma told Killian the kiss was a one time deal, then told Snow the kiss was nothing, then right before Killian told his secret she told Killian it was just a kiss (even though she was clearly affected by the kiss). Yet, right after Killian actually verbalizes, in a serious manner, how he feels about her for the first time, the earth moves for Emma.
Then right after that happens she moves toward Killian, starts to reach toward him and starts to say something but is interrupted by Snowing.
Here’s the next thing I noticed after watching Emma’s secret a few times. There was something that was bugging me about something she said in her secret that seemed a bit “off” to me and I figured out what it was after watching Killian’s secret again.
Emma: It was just a kiss. How is that your darkest secret?
Killian: It’s what the secret exposed. My secret is: I never thought I would be capable of letting go of my first love, of my Milah, to believe that I could find someone else. That is, until I met you.Notice that Killian calls Milah “MY Milah” even though he is basically telling Emma that he loves her. He is completely comfortable with Emma understanding that Milah was his first love and that, because of that, he will always, on some level, still love her so she will always be “his Milah.” Emma knows he has the tattoo of Milah’s name on his arm – which will forever be a reminder that there was someone he loved before her (just like Henry will forever be a reminder that Neal was Emma’s first love). But both Killian and Emma know that Milah is 300 years dead in the past so none of that matters. And even after Killian calling Milah “my Milah”, how does Emma respond? She is clearly moved and the earth moves!!! Then she reaches for him and was going to say something to him!!
Fast forward through Snowing . . .
Someone pointed out that as Emma starts to go across the bridge of secrets toward her past (Neal) she looks to her future (Killian) for confidence and then she does it a second time as she gets a bit further out.
Then Emma gets to Neal.
Emma: When I heard you might be here, that you might still be alive, I knew I should be happy but I wasn’t. I was terrified. I didn’t know why until now.
So up until the cave Snow has been saying all kinds of things under the assumption that Neal is her happy ending. She has been telling her not to give up hope that he is still alive, blah, blah, blah. Then we find out that Emma was feeling pretty good when she kissed Killian but then instead of being happy like Snow assumed she would be, when she found out Neal was alive, she was terrified. And it wasn’t until NOW – in the Echo Cave that she discovered WHY she was terrified.
She says that when she saw Neal in Manhattan she realized she still loved him (much like Killian still loves Milah) but then doesn’t really say much else before she says something about barely being able to take a breath and he was gone again, referring to him being shot and falling into the portal. So to me this says that for 11 years she was walled up not really understanding what to make of their relationship since he ditched her which led to her trust issues and her inability to accept or give love. Then she finds Neal and realizes that she did actually love him – he was her first love and then immediately he is gone again – this time dead and she doesn’t have to wonder about him anymore, this time she thinks she can have closure.
Emma (following “I didn’t know why until now”): I love you, I probably always will but my secret is that I was hoping that this was a trick. I was hoping you were dead because it would be easier for me to put you behind me than to face all the pain that we went through all over again.
Notice that Emma said that she was hoping this was a trick. She was hoping it was a trick because she wasn’t happy when she heard he was alive, she was terrified. And why did Killian NOT want to tell Emma right away that Neal was alive? That’s right. He wanted to make sure it wasn’t one of Pan’s tricks first so that Emma would be spared the feelings of thinking that Neal might be alive. Because who would be the ONE person who would understand exactly how it feels to try to move on after someone you love dies? Killian – who had JUST told her EXACTLY that. And I think Emma is suddenly okay with recognizing that she will probably always love Neal because Killian basically acknowledged that he will always love Milah by calling her “MY Milah.”
Here’s the part that bugged me – it didn’t make sense to me that Emma said “it would be easier to put you behind me, than to face all the pain that WE went through all over again.” It didn’t make sense that she used the word “WE” because as far as I can tell she and Neal never went through any pain together. He ditched her before he even knew she was pregnant, he didn’t serve time in jail, and in her secret speech she pretty much blew right past ANY of the time they spent together in SB by saying that she barely had a chance to take a breath and he was gone again so she isn’t talking about anything that happened in SB. It wouldn’t make sense for her to use the word “WE” if she was talking about the guilt that Neal says he felt for leaving her because she is clearly ONLY talking about her OWN emotions here. So the word “WE” was really bugging me.
But then when I went back and watched everything again, the word “WE” makes perfect sense if she is using it in reference to herself and Killian. Not using it to identify themselves as a firmly established couple But using “WE” because of the emotional connection she just made to Killian and the fact that she “just realized” that “they” have been experiencing the same pain for years. And I think she is just starting to realize that when she thought Neal was dead and when she has been around Killian and when she kissed him she was starting to feel good for the first time – which is exactly how Killian just told her he was feeling about her as well.
I think what was happening is that when Killian told Emma his secret, she realized that she felt EXACTLY the same way about him and that it wasn’t until she heard Killian describe exactly what she was feeling as well that she realized WHY she was terrified of Neal being alive.
So I think when Emma says “I was hoping you were dead because it would be easier for me to put you behind me than to face all the pain that we went through all over again.” She was basically saying – It took me 11 years to realize that the reason I put up all these walls was because I loved you and you hurt me. You were my first love and and even though you hurt me I will always love you because you WERE my first love. But I know now that I am capable of letting go of the pain that caused me to put up all those self-protective walls and I am capable of being happy with someone else. It is easier to realize all of that and feel all of that if you are dead (the way Milah has been dead for 300 years and they don’t have to deal with her). If you are alive, we (me and Killian) have to deal with all of the emotional fallout that comes from realizing that first person you love (and will always love) was never meant to be your true love after all, all over again instead of being able to just leave them in the past.
I keep watching the clip of Emma’s secret and this is the only way that it makes sense to me. Everything up to that point is about HER emotions and how SHE was feeling and then there is this random “WE” thrown in there that makes zero sense if it refers to Emma and Neal.
[adrotate group="5"]The camera shows Emma’s face and she is clearly emotionally affected and then, while the camera is still on ONLY Emma, unexpectedly the earth moves!
Yeah, hehe, I saw that! Hopefully something A+E included as a little joke 😉
Emma: When I heard you might be here, that you might still be alive, I knew I should be happy but I wasn’t. I was terrified. I didn’t know why until now. So up until the cave Snow has been saying all kinds of things under the assumption that Neal is her happy ending. She has been telling her not to give up hope that he is still alive, blah, blah, blah. Then we find out that Emma was feeling pretty good when she kissed Killian but then instead of being happy like Snow assumed she would be, when she found out Neal was alive, she was terrified.
Yep, there was no “hope” there that he’d be alive – she didn’t WANT to find out that he lived.
It didn’t make sense that she used the word “WE” because as far as I can tell she and Neal never went through any pain together.
To be honest, I think she IS talking about her and Neal there. And I do think there was pain there on both sides.
Now, I don’t think it’s at all the SAME pain, and by no means as intense on Neal’s part, since he was the one that got to make all the choices and knew what was going on. I think it hurt Neal to send her to jail because he thought that it was the “right” thing to do, and then I think it hurt him when he realised how wrong he was. And I do think he genuinely understands that, because, (and kudos for him for allowing her to release all her pain without making her feel bad about it) he wouldn’t have been so understanding if he hadn’t realised that what he did to her was wrong. Like, I know I rag on Neal a lot, but I do accept that he has SOME good points, even if I don’t know how people can ship Swanfire when it’s such an unhealthy, destructive relationship.
Anyway, I do think that Emma is fantastic there when she grants him equivalent pain, it’s pretty generous. Honestly, I don’t know how that girl hasn’t had a breakdown yet, an incapacitating one, I really don’t.
NOW ON TO SPOILER PICTURES EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
We’re getting a CS conversation, alone!!!!!!!!!!! So excited to see what’s said. The conversation looks pretty intense. 🙂
Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss
Maybe Emma and Hook are talking about the kiss and what Neal being with them, means for them moving forward. that’s the kind of talk they need to have anyway.
Fellow shipmates, I LOVE you all – but sometimes you just write too much. 😉
I haven’t been able to watch the episode and come to the forums until today – RL got in the way. 🙁It took me hours to catch up with what you were all thinking about the episode and you basically already said what I wanted to say about it – and I don’t wanna repeat everything. Just letting you know that I think this episode was actually awesome – in general and for us CSers. The “big reunion”?! That was Emma telling Neal that she doesn’t want to get back together with him. I was afraid that it would be huge for SF, that they would say “I love you” to oneanother again, in a romantic way, not in the way Emma actually told him. And this whole episode showed and proved, that Killian Jones is a man of honor. And a man who loves deeply and selflessly. He won’t push Emma to do anything. He told her that he cares for her, basically told her he loves her. And now he is going to wait for Emmas choice, because he respects her and puts her first! And thats what she deserves and nothing less. It killed me and made me cry to see Killian this hurt again. The looks he gave her in the echo cave and the sad and hopeless look he had while overhearing Emma and Neal outside the cave. I was in so much pain, mates. I don’t even wanna start talking about Neal because everything has been said, only one thing: Can Charming punch him at least once?! Like really hard? In the face? I mean what he did to Emma and what he is doing again right now is criminal. Poor Emma – she really had and has to go through a lot. 🙁 I want her to be happy so so so much – she told MM that she was feeling good before the kiss! HUGE! She even smiled around Killian – while she’s in tears around Neal. HUGE HUGE HUGE!!!
And now this, guys:
While reading all your thoughts here, the radio played Alive from Pearl Jam – which they NEVER do here in Germany, honestly I never heard that band in the radio before. Pearl Jam is Colin O’Donoghue’s favourite band – if thats not a sign than what is, people!! 😉 🙂All very good thoughts!
Short version highlights (sorry I write too much!):
- Hook is not going to die and be the blind item where he has his own pilot somewhere. They updated the blind item and said the show in question doesn’t even air on ABC so be CALM! Also they wanted him from the beginning and he’s a regular which means OVER HALF the season so please relax!
- Triangle isn’t really a triangle – it’s Emma’s journey and dealing with her past so she can move on to her future (a lesson Regina is still learning) – SEE THE BOLDED PARAGRAPH way below to see the rest of this but I feel pretty confident that Hook played NO part in Emma’s choices about not wanting Neal in her life. Neal may think there’s a triangle, Hook probably thinks there is or that he’ll just lose her, but to Emma, she’s being faced with dealing with her past head on so that it DOESN’T ruin her future
- I am highly confident at this point based on absolutely everything (especially from this episode!) that CS is endgame.
The writers are wonderful and they KNOW how their characters are perceived and what affect they’re having on people. If they wanted to turn things around and even it out a bit, Neal would be making a lot more good decisions and it would have been a big romantic moment. It certainly would not have started the reunion with “I was hoping you were dead.” It set it up perfectly to mirror both Milah/Rumple as well as the Kathryn/David with MM watching dynamic.
The key here is that HOOK does not know what Emma said. Nor do Snow and Charming. Neal is the only one that heard her and he was put into that position to break up the group and cause drama.
Right now Killian is HURTING because he thinks he’s sacrificing his chance at Emma in order to give her what she wants but he doesn’t know that she doesn’t want it. He didn’t hear her breakdown over there and he doubled back to listen afterward but all he heard was the tail end with Neal saying he was never going to stop fighting for her. never.
Seriously the wording on that bugged me to no end. It takes away all power of choice and reeks of “I heard everything you just said but I really don’t care.”
For a brief moment I seriously wondered if it was the shadow pretending to be Neal like he had pretended to be Belle before and just got the wording mixed up cause that was totally a RumBelle line and Neal wasn’t doing any of the things he was so anxious to do the moment he got back to Emma. If they want me to root for him I am seriously confused because they’re showing a guy who’s being completely selfless and letting her choose and respecting her wishes and then here’s the guy she just said she was hoping had actually died and he brings her way too much pain and all he has to say to that is “I get you’re mad at me after everything I put you through but I’m never going to stop fighting for you. Never.” – it was like he was throwing a temper tantrum or something.
I go back to my earlier statement – what if Emma chooses someone else and is genuinely happy? Is he gonna pull a Rumple and try to sabotage it or something? Cause never usually means uh, never and he said it TWICE. Sounds a lot like he plans to “fight” for her for the rest of her life even if she does choose someone else and the lack of choice really really bugs me.
Emma was “feeling good” when she kissed Hook. She was genuinely smiling. She even felt the need to tell her mother about the supposedly meaningless kiss and we know NOW that it wasn’t about whether Neal would care or not because she doesn’t WANT Neal back in her life. He’s there because he’s a part of Henry’s so she’ll have to deal with him now but on a personal note she doesn’t want him there. She wasn’t remotely worried about him “forgiving” her for kissing Hook. She was trying to talk to her mom about what just happened that was big FOR HER and trying to wrap her head around it. Notice she wasn’t running up to her and saying something about Neal…
(Snow is just clueless now and has to learn to embrace a bit more of her MM side because back then she could read Emma pretty well. Snow on the other hand…)
I’m not sure what else the writers can even do! They spent S1 setting up that Emma does not want Henry’s dad in the picture. At all. We see him again in Manhattan, watch Emma have a BREAKDOWN (which is rare), hear him NOT give good answers to anything, see her call her mother and say she DOESN’T WANT him in Henry’s life, mirror a conversation of Milah/Rumple’s, TAKE THE DEAL NEAL GAVE HER TO NEVER SEE HIM AGAIN which only backfired because Rumple went on the attack and Neal actually came back for once in his life to help, watch Neal continue to make bad decisions including ONLY coming to SB because he was afraid his papa was about to die (not because of Emma OR Henry – he even whined when she said she was taking Henry home because he had barely gotten to spend time with him yet), she thinks he’s dead and 5 days later she KISSES HOOK when every other TL pairing we’ve seen has a major MELTDOWN when their TL is perceived to be dead, she was “feeling good” about it even though she keeps trying to brush it off, she was SMILING and FLIRTING and seeming in relatively good spirits when Hook’s around, she goes to him more than she does her own parents, and now that Neal’s alive she’s TERRIFIED and outright tells him her darkest secret (which is proven true because of the cave situation) which is she wishes he were dead and she wants to move on from her first love (just like Hook has just said he was able to do) and doesn’t want him back and instead of doing the right thing and apologizing and begging for forgiveness or saying something along the lines of “I’m gonna earn your trust again. We’re gonna fix this. We have to at least try. We owe it to Henry (*gag* but I could see him saying it)” etc etc.
They’ve set up SO MUCH STUFF to give people reason to think that Emma never wants him back…ever and yet it’s being called endgame every episode just as much as we are calling CS endgame and from the same exact moments. I don’t get it!
Also, NOWHERE in his statement did he take responsibility for anything. It was just a blanket I hear what you’re saying and you don’t have to apologize for being upset after everything I’ve put you through (first smart thing he’s said recently) but I’m never giving you up ever. Um. Huh?
They’ve done so much to drill this into our heads from SEASON 1. A whole season of Emma not wanting this guy around her or her kid. Then comes Tallahassee and they literally parallel her past with him to a CRIPPLING FEAR of having it repeated by someone she doesn’t know but clearly WANTS to trust and everything in her is saying to but she can’t because her PAST being repeated is too terrifying for her. This is the guy that BROKE her for over a decade. So of course she should totally go back, that’s healthy.
I see moments here and there where I remember the sweetness of them together and from Emma’s POV I totally get it, especially since he was her first love and father of her child. Even running into someone who has hurt you deeply, they can remind you of the good moments and make you temporarily forget. But they haven’t done remotely enough to make Emma forget the bad stuff (and frankly, pretty sure she’s not going to – just like she’ll have issues with Snowing even forgiving them won’t make her forget growing up feeling that way). So seeing a sweet moment here and there doesn’t really mean much in the grand scheme of things because it doesn’t change anything for her and it’s HER opinion that matters the most here and she’s told us not only is she terrified of him being back in her life but that she wishes he were dead and she wants to move on (all of which was proven as to how she really feels thanks to the cave).
Everyone on the show has made mistakes and the core people are getting redeemed eventually. I get that. But sometimes you have to learn FROM your mistakes and make sure not to make them when you get a second chance down the line. That second chance doesn’t have to be with the same person. That’s not how things work and for characters who spent a long time in the real world, they should know that. I was actually happy with Neal earlier in the season because he was outright saying there’s a good chance he wouldn’t get her back and that he may not deserve it but he’ll try for it. He worded it SO BADLY when talking to her in this “reunion” that I wanted to scream. It didn’t sound remotely like fighting for a second chance or apologizing profusely for the pain and wanting to EARN a second chance. He’s as bad as Rumple when it comes to long overdue apologies I swear.
Splitting the characters in two: I love Bae. I adore him 99% of the time. It’s what he grew into (especially with that background) that I have major issues with. I seriously wonder if Neal WERE NOT BAE if people would be so forgiving of the guy who let Emma go to jail for his crimes, pregnant and alone (him not knowing doesn’t magically make it ok either), and then NEVER bothered to come looking for her but REPLACED HER and tried to have a life elsewhere. Even when she came back into his life he had a defeatist attitude and gave her an option to never see him again (which she tried to take!) and was planning on staying in NY with his fiancee and never coming after Emma who was CLEARLY hurt which means deep feelings were involved and he let his fear of rejection cripple him to the point where he made too many lousy choices after already doing something major and breaking Emma entirely. He made bad choices for both of them but ultimately it doesn’t matter why he did it but the fact that he did it. He let his fears cripple him from making the right decisions and he didn’t do anything to make up for it. Too little too late now when all the other options of that nice normal NY life are no longer available for him. Seriously questioning if people would love him SO much if he weren’t the little boy we love who has been through a lot. I’ve shipped Bae quite a bit with random flirtations of his childhood (Morraine, Wendy), but with Neal I have major issues (and it doesn’t help he wants to erase the GOOD side of him by ignoring his past as Bae which is EXACTLY where his line of thinking got screwed up).
It is not Emma’s job to fix anybody except herself and she’s in the process of doing that. It was going a LOT better for her when she thought that chapter was behind her and she didn’t have to relive all that stuff again. It doesn’t matter what we know about either guy, Emma has to go off of what she knows and more importantly what she FEELS. Both guys have had tragic pasts and it pains me to hear people disregard Killian’s pain in all this too, but ultimately it’s EMMA’s choices that decide everything.
This season it’s becoming more and more apparent that Killian is doing whatever it takes to put Emma’s needs before his own. He is being absolutely SELFLESS and SHOWING her that he’s there for her and that someone appreciates WHO SHE IS TODAY (not holding onto the idea of the 17 year old), and with his most recent declarations that he fancies her and that he never thought he could move on from his first love until he met her etc etc, it’s only a matter of time before she realizes it. It’s kinda of like Snow’s comment with Charming about the dwarves, that he’ll win them over “eventually” – it’s a long slow burn but Killian is making great strides, both with Charming AND with Emma. The two BIG TL couples on the show weren’t exactly love at first sight either. Snow’s nickname for David wasn’t exactly born out of her thinking he was the most charming man she ever met.
Emma may not be ready to deal with any of this right now because the person who caused her CRIPPLING FEAR has resurfaced in her life. She didn’t get ANY time to figure out what the kiss meant to her. She started her magic lessons seemingly right after and then poof, Neal’s alive. She and Killian haven’t talked at all. She tried with MM who brushed it off because she’s all pro-Neal (which makes NO sense based on what she has heard Emma say before and she is completely disregarding all of it just like Neal is *shakes Snow – are you a friend/mother or aren’t you?* – as someone who has protective parents, I can’t IMAGINE them pushing me back to somebody I had said such things about. EVER. And they wouldn’t let me FORGET having said all of that before either, yet Snow is somehow oblivious and projecting herself onto Emma which…isn’t working & I think she may start realizing that soon *I hope*). All of these things are hitting Emma at once and her son is still out there but at least knows she’s on her way.
No idea how or why she ends up going off with just Neal and Hook next episode and not sure if we’re really going to get any good one on ones because I seriously doubt that Neal will leave her alone to talk to Hook for very long at all – in fact I’m sure he’ll interrupt right about the time we really want to hear what was said…again. It’s more likely that Hook would allow it for Neal and Emma because he still is under the impression that Emma loves Neal and wants to work things out. I think Emma will probably try to stick close to Hook though and I hope we get at least bits and pieces of a conversation they need to have. It’s just yet another obstacle for them, like with Ariel and Eric, not getting to talk when they should and say the things that need to be said. It’ll be very interesting to see what hurt Killian has to say though. He was pretty great about everything last episode and I have faith he’ll continue to impress even though he’s hurting badly – I just want to give him a hug and say it’ll be alright eventually, just give her some time and don’t lose hope.
Hope we get some good conversations for Emma and Hook though. She wants to explain things probably (especially since we did see her reach for him and look like she wanted to say something IMMEDIATELY after his declaration instead of, you know, recoiling against a wall in fear – seriously, if the guy you’re NOT interested in just basically said he loved you and the kiss was just meaningless to you, do you really feel the need to race up to him and reach for him and look like you’re about to say something? She could have stayed right where she was and reiterated again that it was just a kiss and say she’s sorry he feels that way or something but racing to him and reaching out to touch him or maybe hug him or something? Seems very odd to me).
So to answer your question after seeing a bunch of episodes this season, I am pretty confident that even when things on the surface appear to be positive for SF, the way they’ve set things up, what they’re showing, whose reactions they’re showing in big moments, the lack of a remotely romantic reunion (which would have been THE TIME to try and make it seem less lopsided) etc etc I’m pretty confident about endgame now, moreso than I have been in past weeks (and rewatching with looking for specifics really does wonders for that as well).
I don’t have it all mapped out as to where they’ll live or what they’ll call their house, but I’m through getting worried over every little moment. It’s a long journey and goodness knows how it will end up, but I don’t see Hook leaving her side at all, whether they’re together or not, unless SHE wants him to. The fact that he gives her free reign to choose things instead of pushing her speaks volumes and with women like Emma and Snow, actions speak louder than words. They may play on her old feelings for Neal a bit, especially if he tries to behave himself to win her back and make her temporarily forget all the bad stuff, but we’ve seen time and time again for Emma that that stuff is buried deep within her and isn’t going anywhere.
If it does somehow switch around, they better really sell it because for 2 seasons now, they’re not building him up in any great light for me (actually 3 seasons because of the S1 setup to not remotely like the guy if he ever enters the picture). Even when he does have a brief moment of hope he goes and ruins it by doing things the wrong way or not taking her feelings into consideration. Acknowledging she doesn’t owe you an apology (of course she doesn’t!) and then ignoring the rest of what she’s said because it isn’t what YOU want isn’t good enough. Hook has made everything about EMMA, and Neal is making everything about himself. I know which one I’d pick.
I’m basically to the point that if SF is a modern day fairy tale I don’t want one. EVER. (And if Emma doesn’t want and appreciate Killian then please send him my way – the man was loyal for centuries and Neal couldn’t last a little over a decade knowing he could go back to her and beg for forgiveness and explain and even now with a gazillionth chance can’t seem to either. *headdesk*)
I really don’t think the Emma we’ve known for 3 seasons would ever go back and it was encouraging to see her finally admit what she’s actually thinking (rather than all of us just guessing) and do it in a way that proves something (ie: in the echo caves). It’s genuinely how she feels. She does love him and probably always will but A&E have said that just because you do truly love someone doesn’t mean you end up together. It was refreshing to watch her actually admit to wanting to move on with her life and we’ve seen that in her actions recently as well. For a few days she was actually free of that part of her life.
The healthier option in my opinion is to move forward with her life which is what she was trying to do (and what NL makes you face). Emma’s past is full of pain and torment. Why *should* she go back to that? I’ve seen some say that if she chooses Hook she’s taking the easy way out but hasn’t she suffered enough? Sometimes it’s great to go back and work on things and fight to make it work but how is finally letting herself move on past all of that pain and torment the wrong decision? How is that even EASY for her when it’s taken her over a decade to let herself get to that point? Does that make Regina and Robin Hood “easy” or Hook and anybody “easy” because they’re cutting off their pain? What about Rumple? Is loving Belle taking the easy way out and letting go of his magic crutch and the mistakes of the past? Yeah didn’t think so.
I just can’t anymore. I got the appeal of going back to a first love, finding each other all those years later etc etc, but there’s just TOO MUCH baggage there. I don’t see it as particularly healthy for her to revert to being the 17 year old girl who fell in love with him. (She isn’t that girl anymore but he’s still acting like it and hoping she feels that way, and it’s not appreciating the woman that she IS NOW because he doesn’t even know her).
Couple that with the fact that he still hasn’t dealt with the Tamara situation and never actually chose Emma until it was no longer possible to make a choice (how convenient) and I just don’t see why anyone in Emma’s position would ever go back. I certainly wouldn’t. He made the choice a million times and he chose Tamara until she wasn’t an option. Even cursed Charming couldn’t stay away from MM and we all know how much of a screwup David Nolan was! Neal genuinely loved Tamara and 5 seconds later is all Emma Emma Emma. How is that realistic at all? It took Hook 300 years to move on, Regina roughly 40 (and counting since she still hasn’t technically), yet Neal was “dead” for 5 days and Emma was happy around someone else. For the first time in over a decade she was letting herself trust someone NOT to be another Neal.
Side note: I hope that Tamara’s watch comes back into play. Perhaps Tink wears it or something and he recognizes it and finally has to deal with that part of his life because it’s completely bogus that he was so intent on marrying her he brought her to SB, told her ALL ABOUT his past with fairy tale land stuff, loved her, needed her, chose her over Emma repeatedly, and then suddenly no longer feels hurt or betrayed that she tried to kill him. I get falling out of love VERY quickly but there’s no anger? No resentment? No nothing? I’m sorry but if anybody’s delusional right now it’s him. He needs to fix HIS issues before dumping them back on Emma and making her feel like she has to give him a second chance. Bouncing from woman to woman screams rebound for Emma and she deserves so much better than that. (Seriously if they want them back together someday, now is NOT the time because it reeks of desperation on his part and it’s taking the easy way out, to go back to who he used to love, than to deal with HIS past betrayals of which he has many). Using each other as emotional crutches without dealing with anything in the past, be it theirs combined or not, is not healthy. Hook has DEALT with his demons and made a CHOICE to move forward and stop living in the past, much like Regina begged of Tink, to choose love over anger.
Regina and Hook are both realizing that living in the past isn’t what it’s cracked up to be, but at least they acknowledge their pasts and their issues and nobody is a 2nd choice or a rebound. Hook’s had 300 years to deal with Milah’s death. She didn’t die yesterday and now he’s cozying up to Emma. It was a HARD BATTLE for him which he made evident in his secret and he made sure that EMMA understood (nobody else knows about Milah) but Emma does know what she meant to him so it is HUGE that after ALL THIS TIME he was finally able to move on and care about someone else. Relatively speaking, for Emma that’s like spending a decade on somebody who is a closed chapter in her life and not letting herself move forward and it gave her hope and the strength to say that what he just said is what she wants too – to put her first love behind her and stop living with all that pain and misery and move forward with her life.
Snow I just wanna slap upside the head and tell her to wake up. I get Charming being protective but I really think he’s growing to respect Hook. I can’t wait for him to have to deal with Neal once he realizes how much Emma doesn’t want him around. Looks like that won’t be happening anytime soon if the group is splitting up and Charming isn’t around Emma and Neal but I really want Charming to see how uncomfortable Emma is now that Neal is pursuing her (remember, he wasn’t before, he was engaged so to Charming he wasn’t that big of a deal except the one time that he came into the room to make sure Emma was ok and she acted like she was).
Now she’s uncomfortable and has said a lot of things to Neal about it but nobody else knows that (and Hook likely only knows that Neal intends to fight for her). I want to see CHARMING watch Emma squirm and see how she behaves around Neal vs how she’s behaved around Hook and realize something’s up. Neal at least deserves a Charming punch or two. The guy punched Whale for what he did to Snow UNDER THE CURSE not knowing anything. You really think he’s not gonna want to hurt the guy who is clearly causing his baby MASSIVE PAIN?
I really just need Snow and Charming to actually know what’s going on and pay attention. They tend to watch Emma with Hook but have been oblivious so far to the fact that there might be something there. Charming knows that Hook did everything for Emma but was still shocked when Hook said he kissed her (which was gallant of him and placing the blame on himself instead of saying “your daughter launched herself at me”) but I find it very interesting that they’re going to split up and let Emma go off with Neal and Hook knowing how awkward that must be for everyone even though they clearly think that Emma will be working things out with Neal.
Hopefully now that they know about the kiss, have heard Hook’s secret, and are likely to pay attention to how Emma is behaving around both of them, they’ll finally get a clue. I miss MM. She was so much more observant in these situations (I love pre-curse Snow but right now Snow is a littttle out of it)! I think Charming will warm up first to Hook though. Especially if he witnesses Emma having a meltdown or something because Neal won’t leave her alone. (I seriously got creepy vibes off of it based on what he said – it was more like she was a possession he wasn’t willing to give up. Give me a man who let’s me choose and TRUSTS me to choose him any day. This is ridiculous).
For me it’s all about respect and love. Both guys *claim* to love her but only one is acting like it. The other is more in a needy/clingy phase. It’s very immature (he was 14 for goodness knows how long so I get it), and the other is literally putting her happiness before his own because he loves her that deeply. That’s a mature way to handle it. Let HER decide if she wants it and all he’s doing is putting it out there and saying he cares for her but it’s her decision. Hook isn’t threatening about it at all. In fact he told her with VERY VERY GOOD REASON to believe he’d be rejected but he stepped up and it didn’t take him a decade to bother to explain himself and he actually EXPLAINED HIMSELF.
Neal had over a decade to prepare to fix things and show up immediately and maybe he could have. *Maybe* It reminds me of Rumple having 300 years and showing up and suggesting a magical solution to fix his relationship with Bae. Like father like son.
The more we get the more I feel confident. On the surface it looks like more of a triangle than it is but that’s always been media hype about a triangle. As Adam says, they’re “telling a story” not creating triangles for no reason. In the past the triangles have always been obvious, one TL and one 3rd wheel which is sad for them but they grow from it and move forward and find their own happiness. In this one it’s less cut and dried on the surface because there is a lot of history there and people are focusing on the good moments when it’s obvious that Emma is not and is greatly pained by all of it (which is what we’ve been saying all along).
There IS a reason for this triangle. It’s not for drama’s sake, it’s always been to show us who EMMA is and it’s part of her emotional journey – her needing to let go of the past and move forward with her life. Otherwise it would have been set up with Hook as the obstacle or he wouldn’t have been remotely an obstacle when Neal showed back up because it would have been some epic reunion. What we learned in this episode…was that HOOK DIDN’T FACTOR IN. Emma didn’t say “while I thought you were dead I fell in love with someone else.” Hook WAS NOT A PART OF IT. She said “I was hoping you were dead” so it would be easier to move on. She didn’t say with Hook. Hook did not change her wishing that Neal was dead and that chapter of her life closed and done with. Therefore, the triangle is NOT about her falling for someone else while Neal was gone. That was just ratcheting up the DRAMA of her story and forcing her to NOT take the easy way out and just move forward but having to actually deal with Neal and all of that pain etc again until she actually addresses it and moves on which she didn’t have a chance to do while she thought he was dead.
Emma is getting SO MUCH HATE for being remotely interested in Hook and for kissing him it’s ridiculous. People are actually saying it’s all out of character for her when we’ve called this for ages. As a huge Emma fan everything she’s done has been in character and that includes everything with Hook. Can’t wait to see where that goes in the future because she has someone standing right in front of her telling her how amazing she is and that she’s loved and in realizing that, she’s starting to see that she owes it to herself to NOT take the safe and easy path and go back to someone who isn’t right for her and has caused her tons of pain but to take a leap of faith and move forward with her life. To stop living in the past with pain and misery and instead start something new and beautiful with Killian.
She definitely started in that direction and I’ll be supremely disappointed in her/for her if she thinks all she’s worth is going back to someone who caused all of that emotional damage when someone who hasn’t is right in front of her. It goes back to the Graham/Regina thing where she told him off for it.
She’s a very damaged character but she’s doing everything she can to turn her life around and do the right thing (stay with Henry, let go of her past etc etc) and every step of the way something’s trying to pull her back down but she’s fighting and we know as of right now that what she wants is to put her first love behind her (mirroring Hook’s revelation that he has done just that because of Emma).
I really think this is all good for us guys cause Emma isn’t that 17 year old who’s been abandoned anymore. She wants to move forward and Hook is there by her side every step of the way and being open and honest about his feelings (and she knows what he said is true thanks to the caves) and all of that is a good thing. Actions speak louder than words and he’s going to be by her side whether it hurts him or not because he loves her that much and wants to help her, even if it means watching her go back to someone who clearly broke her before.
We know that back in SB, Hook is still by her side. Not sure if we’ll have the triangle sorted by then or not (probably not) but he is still there with her which is a good sign.
I don’t buy the friends thing. Hook would be in way too much pain watching them together all the time. Yes the same is true in reverse but Neal has said before that if she was happy he could move on, and he knows he screwed up big time and has said it’s not likely she’ll take him back. He needs to be there for Henry and Rumple, not Emma and when he gets his head on straight he’ll know that.
I don’t see why they would build up Hook and say it took 300 years for him to move on and then not let him end up with her. He’s not going to be able to move on from the woman he sees as his hope and his second chance and his happy ending in the blink of an eye which relative to his long life is exactly what anything before the series finale would be. And unlike some I don’t think he should be punished and forced to be alone forever while people like Regina and Rumple get their happy endings. It just doesn’t add up.
For Killian, Emma is it. No doubt in my mind. And frankly, he’s it for Emma too. The guy who CAN be everything she dreamed of. The guy who means what he says and actually follows through on it. The one who only makes promises he can back up and then actually does.
We may have been wrong about there being repercussions for using Roland (unless it’s literally a “how did you get to NL?” conversation and Emma is disgusted, but what WILL come up is whether Neal can get them off the island or not.
The next plan of attack is to go find Tink who refuses to help until they have a way out which according to Neal, they do. BIG MISTAKE. He doesn’t KNOW if they do. He THINKS they do but based on his conversation with Pan I don’t see how that’s remotely true. Which means they’re basing everything on him being able to read the map and get them home once they find Henry but can he actually do that?
This episode was literally Hook not wanting to get Emma’s hopes up, and then Neal actually getting her hopes up about getting out of there. They are basing their ENTIRE PLAN on him being their escape route, but Pan basically told him that he didn’t escape, that Pan let him go (which, is HIGHLY UNLIKELY now because he needs Henry and they’re not leaving without him).
It may not have been something that Emma could see about what they were doing in this episode since she doesn’t have any reason to believe he can’t get them out of there since he’s the only one that’s ever “escaped” or so they think, but eventually it will come back to bite them. We already saw what happened when Neal didn’t have an escape plan. He had Henry and he got captured again. Now he’s telling everyone they have a way out after hearing Pan say that his escape wasn’t real? What’s gonna happen when they get to Henry again and Neal can’t get them out of there?
We know they all get out based on spoiler pictures, including Charming (yay!) but the question is HOW? Pan let Neal go ages ago, he made a deal of some kind to let Hook out, everybody is right where he wants them now, but we know that Pan wants Henry there so I don’t see how he’s going to just let them escape. Rumple and Regina are working on something that will contain Pan which makes him lose control of everything I suppose but does that just lift the veil and let everyone leave of their own accord? In which case, it’s STILL NOT NEAL who’s getting them out of there. It’s Rumple and Regina binding Pan somehow which…NEAL DOES NOT KNOW ABOUT. So coming from him and based on what we know he knows, there IS NO ESCAPE PLAN YET so it still makes my blood boil that he said he could do it.
I’m sure he’s just trying to impress/reassure Emma that they’ll get out of there but it’s totally different from saying “I’ll do whatever it takes to help you.” Saying you can ACTUALLY do something when you don’t know if you can? Well I guess what’s one more empty promise? It’s all “words, words, words” and nobody knows it yet. They’re all trusting him.
Hook keeps making the right decisions (and Charming has SEEN some of that) and keeps doing whatever he can to help AND to not get Emma’s hopes up. To be comforting and reassuring without being overly confident. If Neal can’t back up what he’s said about being able to get them out of there when he knows they think he can, then it’s just more words and broken promises which is the root cause of Emma’s emotional damage. Being promised a certain life and then having it ripped out from under her. Neal may get lucky and things may work out alright and he can read the map but based on what he knows right now, it was a lousy thing to promise. It’ll be whatever Regina and Rumple do that will have a big affect on things, and I think Emma is more the key to this than anything.
If they really wanted us to worry, they wouldn’t be hyping it so much and showing us deliberate camera shots again and again. They also would have made it a big epic reunion and not focused on Killian the whole time or had Emma wish that Neal was dead. Her secret would literally have been that she cared about him and always would even though he hurt her and she shouldn’t want him. It would not have been “I should be happy you’re alive but I’m not….. I was hoping you were dead.” If that’s the definition of modern romance, count me out and bash me over the head a few times if I remotely go down that path, please and thank you.
So yeah I feel pretty good about Captain Swan. I’m not sure where we end up but I have no doubt that Killian will be by her side. He’s been sailing around for centuries full of anger and hatred and now someone is in front of him that he’s willing to give up everything for to make her happy and won’t ask her to leave her son behind to be with him. This is a man who has lost everyone he’s ever cared about and wants to belong somewhere and have people around who love him just like everyone else. He’s already grown so much as a character and is definitely becoming more and more like Killian again (can’t wait for her to call him that!) This is just the beginning!
It may not be a dream of living in a castle named after a dream that was destroyed multiple times, and it may not be a perfect little nuclear family all under one roof, but when was this group EVER going to be that? It’s one big dysfunctional family with lots and lots of confusing ties to each other but at the end of the day, they ARE family and WILL BE family no matter what.
Will it be confusing for Henry? Absolutely, especially with 3 sets of parents. But he got along just fine with Regina and Emma and Neal/Tamara before Emma picked up on Tamara being evil. He’s resilient and smart and above all, believes in the book and has a strong sense of TL and meant-to-bes. Of course he’ll want his parents back together but Emma has told him that won’t happen (of course he’ll want it even more now but I think eventually he’ll learn that Emma isn’t happy with Neal and he’ll see how good Hook is for her – he’s very observant and for the “truest believer” he can’t be picky and choosey about which TL couples deserve to be together. It’ll just…take awhile to win him over, but I fully expect moments like we saw with Hook and Bae when things were good between them.
So many things have to happen and this is a long, slow burn for everything (even though we’re growing by leaps and bounds this season!) Emma needs to figure all her stuff out and then get Henry on board with it too (that may be a new obstacle to CS down the line because Henry won’t take it well at first), but eventually I think it will all work out. I love that we can guess up to a point for the future but we have no idea where the journey will actually take us or what character growth may happen by that point that negates certain obstacles. I feel pretty confident Killian will be by Emma’s side though!
Just made me think of this pilot quote from Mary Margaret:
As we build our birdhouses, remember what you’re making is a home, not a cage. The bird is free and will do what it will. This is for them, not us. They’re loyal creatures. If you love them and they love you, they will always find you.
Killian is letting Emma be free and do what SHE wants, even if it hurts him. He’s trying to make her HAPPY, not box her into a corner. It goes along with the idea of if you let them go and they come back to you but if you hold them too tight it just smothers them. Right now I feel like Killian is letting Emma go if that’s what she needs and he’s just left hoping that she’ll come back even though he has reason to doubt she will, whereas Neal is basically caging her up emotionally and saying that she’s his. It’s not letting her CHOOSE to come back, it’s in her face constantly even though she just said that she doesn’t want that anymore.
It’s easy to be upset for one guy or the other because we care about the characters deeply (and in our case, that’s one Killian Jones!) but it ultimately has to be about Emma. Based on everything we have ever seen of her, I have faith that Killian Jones is her perfect match and that with more time and information, it will become even more obvious. It’s Emma Swan – the main character and the one that has been paired with basically everybody because she’s the product of true love and is hard-wired to find hers. We all want her to be happy and I fully expect an epic love story for her, and so far, the only beautiful love story has been with Killian Jones. Anything else is too many steps backward for her character.
We’re the “delusional” fans who said that they were meant to be from the start and here we are a little over a year later and Emma is KISSING HOOK and flirting with him and he’s giving grand declarations of feelings left and right (though definitely saving the actual ILY for the right moment!) and now we’re nominated for best on screen chemistry when people refuse to see any chemistry between them and it’s beautiful! We’ve called so many character things for Emma and Killian now and I don’t think for a second this is the end. We’ve had way too many hints and teases along the way, both on screen and in interviews that they have a long way to go because of Emma’s baggage but that there is something real here. Can’t wait!
Side note: Hilarious how people would even say that we bought the nomination for best chemistry. Seriously? I would love to have that kind of cash but if I did it wouldn’t be spent on that!
I can play devil’s advocate on most things and see both sides and I get it to some extent but putting myself in Emma’s shoes, there’s no doubt in my mind that Killian is the right man for her. It may take her awhile to own up to that and let herself be loved and put first but he’s making progress and so is she. He’s had centuries to work through his grief so she has to have a little slack in the meantime and because not everybody knows what we know, it will be PAINFUL for us and we’ll have lots more of sad Killian faces *sniff* for awhile but I will be so glad when this triangle is over and official.
I’m also really glad they haven’t done anything to Emma where only TL will save her because I’m not entirely sure how it would work and whether it would be definitive proof. It worked with Emma and Henry because they genuinely love each other but it’s obviously a different kind of love, whereas Charming had to wait for Snow to wake him. Then we have the issue of Emma still loving and probably a part of her always will with Neal, but that doesn’t make him her TL even though they “truly love one another” as Eddy said awhile back. Adam specifically said that just because you truly love one another doesn’t mean you end up together but how does that affect a TL kiss? If your TL exists in the world do you have to wait for them which is why Emma was able to wake Henry because she is his only “true” love right now? Does romantic trump any other kind of love that isn’t romantic in nature?
I’d trust the pixie dust a bit more but I still don’t want to see it used either. I don’t think either side of the triangle will be happy until *something* proves TL but I don’t see what they could do really that doesn’t leave any questions or doubts. I’ve always said that if they did something to prove TL then it’s a done deal but now I’m not so sure since Emma’s arc has always been big on choice and we do have instances where TL kiss works for non-romantic but still genuine love. I don’t want Tink to prove anything with dust and I don’t want Pan to try to take Henry’s heart either (which would *possibly?* show whether he’s the product of TL – or is Emma just special?). So many questions!
So I really hope it’s just done to Emma saying “No, this is who I am” and making an actual choice and then that’s it. I’m sure whichever side “loses” will still say it doesn’t count until it’s proven/show’s over regardless if there’s not definitive proof but I don’t really see anything *right now* that would safely prove or disprove anything. Still want it to be Emma’s choice though and for people to respect it. Sick of seeing the hate over being HERSELF and doing what SHE wants.
As much as we all want to scream and say “you’re obviously meant to be with ___ just say it already,” it’s going to take her awhile no matter what and as JMO said, she has a genuine pull between both of these guys. Personally I still say that it’s really a matter of her past and her future and that ultimately she’ll let go of her past and find love with Killian.
So yeah, feeling good about it! Can’t wait for next week, this season has been amazing so far! Now if only I could write this much for what I should be working on…
*cookies and rum for all*
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
Lol, just saw this on tumblr and had to share:
Me: I feel kind of bad for Hook after this last episode. Mum: Why? He loves Emma, and she’s clearly not going back to Neal. I think he’s Emma’s true love. Me: But he doesn’t know that she’s not going back to Neal, he heard Neal tell Emma he’d never stop fighting for her. Mum: Can’t stop what you never started.
Buuuuuurn. Hehe. @obisgirl – thanks for the reassurance haha, not that we needed it!
LOL- This is awesome!
I’m getting a bit confused by people saying that Killian put pressure on Emma by telling her how he felt in the cave – that it wasn’t fair of him to drop all of that information on her when she has already been through so much and is worried about Henry. Did I miss something?? How was he at ALL in control of what his secret was? It wasn’t like he could choose what he wanted to reveal – it was supposed to be his darkest secret. And I don’t see how his secret puts any pressure on her anyway. Emma has clearly had the upper hand with Hook all along – she tied him up, chained him up, cuffed him up, knocked him out, jabbed his broken ribs, tossed back sarcasm like no one else can, grabbed HIM and kissed him silly, and then insisted that the kiss wasn’t a big deal and would never happen again. I fail to see how Killian telling her that meeting her made him realize that he could finally let go of the first woman he loved who died 300 years ago and care about someone else would suddenly make her feel pressured but having a guy she just told she wished was dead tell her he would never, NEVER stop fighting for her is a healthier alternative????
Also, I totally agree with the people who initially wondered if Neal was actually the Shadow? He seemed so stoic and the fact that he didn’t react at all seemed odd to me considering he was so insistent on telling Emma he loved her. I understand people who say that it wouldn’t have made sense for him to declare his undying love for her – totally agree, it wasn’t the right time. But the girl was spilling her guts, after they get out of the cave he assures HER that SHE doesn’t have to apologize to HIM about anything??? Are you kidding me??? That is just plain weird. I’m glad he acknowledged that he put her through a lot – that made sense, but instead of saying he was never going to stop fighting for her (which I still insist makes ZERO sense since he never STARTED), wouldn’t it have been better for him to have told her that he will always love her too, or that he will always be there for her and Henry, or that he is going to make up for the pain he caused her, or that he is going to do everything he can to make sure he doesn’t hurt her again??
Again, did anyone else find it bizarre when they all first got out of the cave? Neal just says “Thanks” with literally no emotion at all. These people all had to tell their darkest secret to save him and he gives them a generic “thanks.” I literally hate this. I want so badly not to NOT like Neal but I just find very few redeeming qualities about him. As someone else said, I LOVE Bae. But Neal – Uggghhh. I almost wish we would find out that Neal is an evil imposter and is really NOT Bae. Drives me crazy!!!
CRACK Theory time!
It’d be hard case if Killian took a curse for Emma & was seriously injured or near death as a result, so Emma (unknowingly) breaks it with bestowing TL kiss on him, thus saving Killian 🙂 That’d wipe the nasty comments about us being delusional or Hook dying from the septic SF/ST’ers lips LOL & it would cause all sorts of drama with-in the family & Emma herself- I think having a TL would freak her out for a while hehe.
So happy today after all the killing off Hook talk! Captain Swan is here and is gonna be a big part of the story that’s told going forward 🙂
Fellow shipmates, I LOVE you all – but sometimes you just write too much.
I haven’t been able to watch the episode and come to the forums until today – RL got in the way.
It took me hours to catch up with what you were all thinking about the episode and you basically already said what I wanted to say about it – and I don’t wanna repeat everything. Just letting you know that I think this episode was actually awesome – in general and for us CSers. The “big reunion”?! That was Emma telling Neal that she doesn’t want to get back together with him. I was afraid that it would be huge for SF, that they would say “I love you” to oneanother again, in a romantic way, not in the way Emma actually told him. And this whole episode showed and proved, that Killian Jones is a man of honor. And a man who loves deeply and selflessly. He won’t push Emma to do anything. He told her that he cares for her, basically told her he loves her. And now he is going to wait for Emmas choice, because he respects her and puts her first! And thats what she deserves and nothing less. It killed me and made me cry to see Killian this hurt again. The looks he gave her in the echo cave and the sad and hopeless look he had while overhearing Emma and Neal outside the cave. I was in so much pain, mates. I don’t even wanna start talking about Neal because everything has been said, only one thing: Can Charming punch him at least once?! Like really hard? In the face? I mean what he did to Emma and what he is doing again right now is criminal. Poor Emma – she really had and has to go through a lot.
I want her to be happy so so so much – she told MM that she was feeling good before the kiss! HUGE! She even smiled around Killian – while she’s in tears around Neal. HUGE HUGE HUGE!!!And now this, guys:
While reading all your thoughts here, the radio played Alive from Pearl Jam – which they NEVER do here in Germany, honestly I never heard that band in the radio before. Pearl Jam is Colin O’Donoghue’s favourite band – if thats not a sign than what is, people!! 
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