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I think Hook really didn’t know that Neal didn’t know. As he told Emma, he thought Neal would have heard his secret in the cave which involved not only the kiss but his feelings about it. He probably thought Neal was playing stupid at first for not knowing what he was talking about but it changed partway through that conversation.
Hook seemed extremely hurt and grasping at straws for it to have meant something to Emma. He expected that if Neal HADN’T heard his secret (which was the first not knowing moment) then he expected Emma to have said something, if only to start their reunion with a clean slate (basically an “I kissed Hook when I thought you were dead but it didn’t mean anything” type moment – remember Hook didn’t hear what her secret was).
So when he got a blank stare from Neal about the kiss he practically joked out the words “our dalliance” like…she didn’t mention it? Was it not important at all? Surely she must have mentioned it. The tone in his voice in that moment was so painful to hear because he was so sure it meant something and then to have it just brushed aside like that made him feel like maybe it didn’t for a second. And then he realized that maybe if she didn’t tell him, that she may not have wanted a clean slate with him and they certainly hadn’t been acting like they were a couple (plus everything he knew from before – Emma’s been in love once a long time ago, she has a son, and now he knows that Neal is Henry’s father and likely the guy that caused her trust issues that she had back with him on the beanstalk). So he quickly went from “I think he knows” to “What do you mean you don’t know?” to “But it meant something, I’m sure of it” to “I have a chance here” all within that brief conversation with Neal.
When Hook gave his secret, he was pretty sure he was sending Emma to rescue her love and that his chances were gone. When he saw them interact afterwards (no kissing, walking away looking upset, hearing Neal say he’d fight for her etc) there may have been a brief moment when he thought he had a chance, but we don’t know for sure if he was just watching or what he heard if anything. They’re definitely not acting like a happily reunited couple, and because of how HE interacts with Emma – open and honest about stuff – he thought that if Neal hadn’t heard his secret, then Emma surely would have mentioned something like that to clear the air.
Hook was a little pushy with wanting to be part of the group going after the shadow. Neither guy (at this point) really loves the idea of leaving Emma alone with anyone and it did seem almost a little desperate (though I’m sure at the time Neal just thought he was 1) being helpful and 2) wanted to get away from the arguing Charmings which…who can blame him for not wanting to tag along with a ticked off Snow and her husband right then?)
Hook just wants his hat in the ring and he can’t talk to Emma about anything if he’s not around to say anything. Hook knows what it’s like to lose someone suddenly and without getting a chance to say what needs to be said. When he revealed his secret, Emma ALMOST responded to him. She raced toward him and reached for him and looked about to say something and then Snowing interrupted that moment by launching into their secrets, so that moment went away.
After Neal rejoined the group, he didn’t really know what to think. Again he may or may not have heard what Neal said to Emma but they didn’t look like this was some big happy reunion when they got out of the caves and he doubled-back either. So he’s confused. He’s spilled his heart and put all his cards on the table and hasn’t gotten a reaction from her yet. He cares about Neal but can’t help the way he feels about Emma too.
Apparently some time has passed between the caves and the splitting of the group (not much but Charming says that Snow hasn’t talked to him since the caves, since yesterday, so likely some time has passed with nothing super important for us to have witnessed for ourselves. That being said, Hook probably spent the rest of that day staying back, observing, and being genuinely hurt and torn because he cares about Emma and sees her not quite happy but he did what he did to help and to make her happy, he sees Neal who seems equally unhappy, and he doesn’t know WHERE he stands with Emma at all because he didn’t get a chance to go talk to her (and it would have been weird to go off alone the two of them right when Neal gets back) so he likely spent a whole night stewing on the sidelines wondering what is going on and what he should do.
We’ve seen him put Emma’s happiness before his own but the thing that supposedly would make her happy (based on everything he’s hearing from everyone one else) still has her looking sad, when right before that, when she was alone with him, she seemed happy. She kissed him – something they haven’t gotten to talk about or what it meant really, at least not in a one-sided way. He’s got all these emotions going and he is completely confused about what he should do, but ultimately wants to lay it all out there and see what happens.
So yes it was absolutely a quick let me step in here moment but Emma could easily have said that she’d like some time alone with Neal to work through things, or that it wasn’t necessary & Hook should go with Charming and Snow to talk to Tink since he knows her. These would have been painful for him because he might not understand if she was choosing or just working through something or just genuinely thought it more helpful of him to be elsewhere, but she accepted him coming along, as did Neal. Snow was the only one who voiced concerns about it.
We’ve seen a similar situation before where Charming stepped in to make sure that Emma was alright with Neal. It was in Gold’s shop when he first found out Emma was magical and Charming realized they were alone in a room and came in to get the ok from Emma to make sure she was alright and she said nodded she was ok so he let them be. Emma could very easily and for many reasons, not the least of which not wanting to deal with everything that’s happened with Hook lately, not to mention the awkwardness of being around both men right now – and this was before Neal knew ANYTHING which made it even more awkward – she went along with Hook joining them without question.
I totally see why it was a pushy move but it goes back to wanting to have the conversations before it’s too late. Time and time again, we’ve watched characters be extremely hurt because they never got the chance to say what should have been said and Hook, as much as he’s on point with the mission and being helpful most of the time, still takes those little moments of rest to be clear about his feelings. To show her that she’s cared about or that he believes in her (and sometimes both). She looks to him for reassurance, and he can’t do that if he’s not there.
There are so many ways to read different things and I think it comes down to our own personal tastes. Both men acted like children in this episode but I don’t think in that initial conversation with Hook that it meant it that way at all. He was trying to thank an old friend for forgiving him and being understanding of it and it backfired. He was hurt midway through that it hadn’t warranted a mention to begin with and that made him want to talk to Emma even more, but it was still a CaptainFire moment man-to-man and I don’t think he knew at all. The only comment I found in that conversation to be a dig was Neal’s “OUR son” moment. And then again later when he lashed out about Hook being sentimental (which he was touched by for 2.5 seconds) and then bit out that Emma didn’t need the reminder now, she has him and walked off.
Hook definitely had his moments this episode that could go either way for people – inviting himself along with them, standing in close and saying WHEN not IF and of course the ridiculous lighter moment for sure. But I don’t think he said anything but the truth to Emma about thinking she had mentioned it before and also thinking Neal had heard his secret where it was mentioned to (especially since Charming had a loud reaction! Yet only screaming names across the caves Echo apparently, go figure).
One more thing about the standing in close thing – I think it’s multiple things. Hook believes absolutely in Emma’s lying radar. One of the first interactions they had was begging her to look into his eyes to see he wasn’t lying. So when Hook needs her to see him, to believe in him as much as he believes in her, and needs her to understand what he’s saying, he moves in really close and she studies his eyes almost the entire time (when she’s not staring at his lips). He is moving closer in a way that begs for her to see him and how genuine he’s being. He believes that she will know if he’s lying and he needs her to see that he means all of it. So when he moves in close, that’s definitely part of it.
It’s also something that has to happen if there’s going to be a relationship. Somebody has to move in close for a kiss to happen. Or a hug. Or anything really. You can talk from a distance all you want but at some point, somebody has to make a move. Even when he wanted the kiss, he moved in close and let her fill in the gap and make the move. There’s nothing wrong with trying to meet someone halfway as long as it’s consensual. He’s not wrapping her up in his arms and pinning her to him when he does this (and the only time he did that remotely was when SHE grabbed HIM but it was about the tripwire). He’s moving in close to see if she likes that and she doesn’t move back even though she’s got all the room in the world. She doesn’t feel boxed in by it and more importantly, she TRUSTS HIM not to do anything that will upset her.
We’ve seen guys get in close before (like Graham) and watch her shut them down or push them away and walk off. She’s even walked off from Hook before when he tried to bond with her. That’s why I trust her judgment and if she’s uncomfortable, I’m uncomfortable for her, but not until then.
I love seeing Hook make it obvious that he wants her. We’re seeing it’s genuine and he’s making her feel loved, something she probably doesn’t feel a lot of the time. It doesn’t help that, even with the best of intentions, pretty much everybody in her life has said they loved her and then abandoned her at some point. SHE abandoned Hook and Henry, and they both came back and have absolute faith in her and it’s hard for her to handle that. It took awhile to let Henry get to her completely. By 1×08 she wanted to be the hero that he wanted her to be but she still doubted herself. He was “kid” for a long time because it distanced him from her, even though she obviously DID care about him and stayed to try and be what he thought she was.
So it’s not going to happen overnight by any means, but she is spending a lot of condensed time with Hook in the jungle. It may have been less than a week since he came back for her and started trying to prove himself, but that’s 6 (I think) days of around the clock in tough situations and she’s been relying on him and sticking close by him and looking to HIM for an opinion on things. He’s been her biggest supporter out there too. It’s not like it’s 6 days of knowing someone well but only spending a couple hours with them here or there. It’s around the clock and absolute trust which she doesn’t have with any of the others. She’s still at odds with her parents and Regina. She’s closer maybe to understanding it all, but Hook is still the one that is proving to her that she was right all along to trust him, even though she was afraid to do so on the beanstalk. That he’s standing by his word and he really wouldn’t have abandoned her. He’s given up everything he holds dear to help her save her son, and shows that he actually gets HER while her parents are still somewhat clueless about a lot of things. (Hook recognized her as an orphan when they first met and has been reading her like an open book since then, but Snow – who was close to Emma as MM, and knows or should know a LOT about her, seems to have forgotten a lot of that when she went into panic mommy mode and doesn’t get her right now at all. She was way more observant as Mary Margaret the friend, than Snow the mother and that’s her arc this season – getting to know how to comfort her own daughter who she’s realizing is upset about things that she had no idea about, or reacting differently to situations than she expected).
I think the only thing that has thrown Hook off this whole time about Emma is that he let some doubt creep in when Pan told him about Neal. He knew that somebody in Emma’s past (likely her son’s father) gave her major trust issues at some point, that she was single now etc) but everyone kept telling him that Neal is the man that Emma loves (loves, not IN love with but the implication is still there when Pan tries to manipulate him) so he does the right thing even though he expects that he’s helping reunite Emma with Neal and he’ll be hurt in the process but it will make her happy at least. Only that doesn’t happen.
In reality, he’s been mourning Neal more than she has. He’s been trying to comfort her and keep his pain to a minimum, but he had the sword, he wanted to toast to him, he got very quiet a couple of times about spending enough time with Bae to miss him, knowing where his cave was, observing he got his sketching ability from his mom (also a painful moment for Hook because of Milah) and they never dig into that. Hook always turned the focus around to what does EMMA need? All the while he’s been in the process of finally letting go of the Milah stuff, and mourning Neal while Emma was feeling like a chapter of her life was finally shut and she was free.
So Neal is the ONLY thing throwing Hook off from reading Emma this well for a little bit and it’s likely because he cares about Neal too. If it were some random guy that hurt her that badly (which he can surmise based on what little he did know from before) he probably would have read him the riot act and mentioned the man unwilling to fight for what he wants quote or something. But he’s changed since we saw that happen with Rumple, and he believes that Neal will fight because he sees that Neal cares about Emma too. I think that’s why Hook almost got injured last episode because for once he took his eyes off of Emma only to have her almost hit in the head with a sword trying to help Neal. (Was so happy to see her say that Hook had it and gave it to her – yay for CaptainFire sentimentality & Hook being sentimental and Emma standing up for Hook and saying it was from something good that he did).
There are so many emotions and assumptions within this triangle right now it’s ridiculous. Each has things they think the other 2 are dealing with and most are wrong and I think it’s because, like with Emma’s superpower, emotions get in the way of things. Hook may have been super confident when he was alone with Emma and seeing how she reacts to him and focusing on all of that, but then seeing her with Neal may make him doubt again at times. He has so much invested in this that it will hurt him badly if she doesn’t choose him so for his own sanity, he has to think that she will and usually, when it comes to Emma, he’s right and everyone else saying how she feels is wrong. They’re kindred spirits. They understand each other, as Emma has pointed out before. But he doesn’t know everything about Emma’s relationship with Neal who is also someone he cares about too. So it’s majorly complicated.
I do think Hook is pretty good about knowing what Emma needs and when. He’s done everything he could to make sure she knew someone believed in her, and he’s done what he could to offer comfort when he thinks she’s hurting (even if it’s just sharing a drink or opening a coconut for her!), but right now HIS radar is a little wonky because he believes, off of everything that has happened between them, that it DOES mean something and that it IS real and it’s only a matter of time before she picks him. But that doesn’t mean he isn’t a little worried that she might not from time to time. So he wants to make sure he’s there to have the opportunity to make sure she knows he’s a good option too and that means being there.
It makes me think of Snowing’s argument in this episode. Snow didn’t care WHERE they were together as long as they WERE together. Love means being together to her. So Hook inviting himself (and not getting shut down when he could have) meant that he was there to get the chance to talk to Emma. At that moment, he thought Neal knew about everything but Hook hadn’t had a chance to talk to Emma to study how SHE feels about everything. There’s nothing worse than wondering if something was said, and then leaving them alone to go talk about it and make everything even worse without getting a chance to explain yourself and AT THAT TIME – he hadn’t had a chance to talk to Neal at all. He doesn’t know what Neal thinks about everything just that he reacted well when Hook volunteered to come along which he took as a GOOD sign of Neal not holding it over Hook’s head.
So I think Hook didn’t want to:
- Be alone with a fighting Snow & Charming
- Leave Emma alone with Neal to give him the upper hand but more importantly
- Make sure things were ok between all 3 of them instead of leaving Emma alone to take the blame for what Hook revealed in the cave
Hook really thought Neal knew that they kissed and that Hook obviously has feelings for her, and without getting to talk to Neal to make sure they were ok with things, and without getting to talk to Emma about everything that’s happened, he doesn’t know where he stands with anybody in that moment! (Man is CSF complicated with all the sub-relationships going on!) – Face time is very important when trying to sort things out. It means that in the middle of a mission, while they’re just walking or have some kind of quiet time, he’s at least THERE to have a chance to say what needs to be said or to get a feel for how things are going. It was Emma’s fault the men were left alone in the cave to have that conversation at all but I do think Hook had the best of intentions to start with. I think it made him happy to see Neal taking it so well because he does care about him and was trying to make sure the elephant in the room wasn’t going to be a problem; that they could be friends. He was hurt and taken aback when Neal had no idea what he was talking about and the switch flipped in the middle somewhere for him to have hope with regards to Emma again, but I really don’t think it started out that way at all.
Hook hasn’t had to play dirty and he’s chosen not to even when it would have greatly benefited him. Charming could have died and he wouldn’t be in the way telling Hook he’ll never get her but then Emma would lose someone she loves and he couldn’t have that. (It’s also way more rewarding to win someone over and prove them wrong than it is for them to just die, but in this particular case, he did it so that Emma wouldn’t lose someone she loves). He told Emma Neal was alive which could have killed his chances right then and there. I think he’ll continue to do that.
Hopefully BOTH men are more respectful in the future and keep their passive agressive petty squabbling to themselves. I totally get the hurt and felt sorry for Neal cause the tone in his voice every time he choked up and walked out was heart-wrenching, but I feel just as much for Killian who has put everything out there and is not getting reactions to any of it.
After the kiss, Emma walked off after saying it was a one-time thing and then said it was just a kiss right before he poured his heart out in the cave to help her get back to Neal, only to discover that it wasn’t the happiest of reunions he expected for her to be happy. He revealed his secret in the cave and she obviously STARTED to react to him and reached for him (which I think is very telling cause why reach for him if you’re just shutting him down?) but again, no time to process any of that TOGETHER and find out if they’re on the same page or not.
Hook tried again to find out if it meant anything to her and she changed it around to him being selfless meant something to her which is all well and good if he took it that way and not in a “Neal’s alive” kind of way, but for the most part, except when Neal is involved making him doubt a little, he reads present day Emma pretty well and knows her better than the others do for the most part. And his reading of her is the same as many of us have been saying, that she has to save Henry first but that someday she will choose him. That what they have DOES mean something and it is special and eventually she’ll realize that. He has to believe that or he’ll go crazy but it’s still her choice to make and until it’s made, there’s always going to be the confidence mixed with occasional doubt (such is the life of a shipper…even a fictional one tugging at our heartstrings!)
So I do think that both guys had their pushy/childish moments about it throughout the episode and if that was a dig at Neal then he more than lobbed it back by reminding Hook that Henry is Neal’s and Emma’s son, but that’s not how I took it. NEAL may have taken it that way, especially at first, but I don’t think Hook would do anything like that to try to hurt Neal. It hurts him that his rival is someone he cares about. It was so much easier when he hated Rumplestiltskin and he really was the enemy. He can’t change how he feels about Emma, and he doesn’t owe it to Neal to step aside unless it makes EMMA happy. I fully believe that if Emma asked him to and made a choice, then he would as long as he knew she was happy. But right now she clearly isn’t, so he knows that he has a chance and that maybe, just maybe, it’s not unrequited. So I don’t think he’s trying to hurt Neal or throw it out there that he and Emma might have a thing.
If anything that would have been better left for him to discover on his own. It’s been obvious for everyone else whether they say that or not. Regina did – she called Hook Emma’s boyfriend. Charming watches the way Hook watches Emma and he told Hook right off the bat that he’s not there out of nobility, he’s there for Emma. Snow…Snow keeps watching Emma and trying to figure her out but she definitely caught the looks when they were making the ropes. In fact, I think when Emma told Snow about the kiss, Snow almost had a knowing smile on her face (reminded me of when MM was so good at reading Emma about the Graham situation) but since Emma SAID it was just a kiss, MM immediately brushed it off and started pushing heavy on the have hope for Neal stuff. She’s admitted she doesn’t know how to handle her daughter and I think that was another moment of well she said….vs how is she acting.
In S1, Emma said something was nothing and MM leapt all over that saying that nothing with her was always something or they wouldn’t be talking about it. But the first thing does when Emma gets a moment alone with her mother after finding out that Neal is alive is talk about Hook? (She could easily have brought up the kiss and agreed with Snow about it bugging her because Neal might be upset about it – but she didn’t. When Snow shifted it to that part of the conversation, Emma got whiny and asked “Why?” when Snow told her to have hope about Neal. It sounded like a kid being asked to eat their vegetables and them pouting saying they don’t want to, why are you making me? So I took that as they were two separate things and Snow just didn’t understand it. She projected her own relationship stuff onto Emma in an attempt to connect to her daughter which she has struggled with, but we know now that Emma didn’t WANT to hope that Neal was alive and unlike what Hook thought, she wasn’t worried about false hope, she was worried he would be alive and she’d have to deal with it all again.
Gonna stop it here for now because the site made me panic when I checked to see if more messages were here or not – so happy I copied/pasted because usually I just lose the whole thing.
I really miss the preview button. It would be so much easier to not lose sight of more questions by the time I get around to posting but hope some of this helped!
[adrotate group="5"]Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
One last little thing to tag onto the end of that since I almost lost everything the first time so posted quickly.
The pressuring thing – I know it bugged a lot of people and if I felt like she was being pressured then I’d be bugged too. I can’t stand people telling what I should do or what I have to do over anything and if a guy wants to try and order me around – good lucky buddy.
That IS the kind of man that women should avoid. I totally get that argument. But one of the things that I love about Hook and Emma’s dynamic is that he can (sometimes seriously, sometimes playfully) ask for what he wants but he still lets her decide if that’s what she wants too.
Usually the innuendo/flirting gets him nothing but an eye roll and walking away. As I discussed heavily when the kiss scene happened, he scratched his ear (just like on the beanstalk) and then transitioned from a very serious moment with her genuinely thanking him (something he’s not used to) into a more playful “here’s what I’m hoping for but probably won’t get” moment that at least got her to smile again like she usually does when they banter even though he gets nothing more out of it than the smile. It’s his hiding spot – behind the facade when his feelings are getting to him.
But then we see how much that kiss affected him. In the cave, when he reveals his secret, he says “it’s what the kiss exposed” – that he really was doing this, that he was ready to move on from Milah and he didn’t realize that until he met Emma (and only just then PROCESSED that – the fact that he had already been acting like that was the case – for the most part – since he met her because he was already giving all of that up and hadn’t realized it until that kiss).
That’s why with the kiss moment, I love that Emma MADE IT CLEAR that she had already thanked him. That she didn’t feel AT ALL like she *needed* to do anything to prove her thanks to him. If somebody tried that with me and downright DEMANDED I owed him something for it, I would have been long gone and I expect the same is true of Emma. That is NOT OK. But she made it clear that not only did she already thank him and NOT feel like she owed him anything, but that she was ENJOYING that moment. It got her to SMILE and flirt and banter a little and yes, it ultimately got him what he wanted in that moment but what he never thought he’d actually GET.
He’s not pressuring her by making it obvious he wants her, and so much has happened since that kiss even that proves that he genuinely cares about her and wants her HEART, not just some fling. He genuinely has real feelings for her and puts her happiness above his own.
As long as it is consensual…what difference does it make? He can ask for something til he’s blue in the face but if Emma doesn’t want it, it’s not gonna happen. Even GRAHAM who everybody loves kissed Emma and she had to push him away, whereas Hook waited for her to WANT to kiss him (with a little prodding but again, she made it clear she didn’t feel like she owed him anything at all) and somehow he’s the bad guy?
We all have different tastes which is why triangles suck so much because there will always be someone who would LOVE to have that other guy because he would be so right for them. But this isn’t about what’s right for person A B or C. This is about what’s right for Emma and Emma…seems to LIKE his honesty and his attention and his eyes on her and knowing he’s right by her side and that he believes in her. These are things that she NEEDS and APPRECIATES. She doesn’t feel threatened or she’d do something about it. She even really liked Graham and WAS jealous over him but she pushed him away when he FORCED HER TO KISS HIM but Hook makes his interest obvious in her and the world ends even though Emma is SMILING and FLIRTING BACK and is oh, I don’t, the one who practically jumped him and when she ended the kiss, it was done.
So I stand by my argument – if Hook goes too far (which I don’t think he will) Emma would kick his butt. She is tough on her own. Now she has magic to fling people across the room if she wanted to. She has all the room in the world to take a step back, or push someone away, or make them stop doing what she doesn’t want (and in the case of Hook, he literally waits for her to meet him halfway, he just closes the gap – not to mention that he actually does what she asks him too *adorable little puppy face + as you wish*).
So if EMMA is not offended I refuse to be offended for her. She was disgusted with both men last night and have every reason to be! But she’s not shutting down Hook and I don’t think she ultimately will. I think she LIKES these qualities in him because it takes someone standing up and saying what he feels and backing all of that up with his actions to get through to someone like her.
I personally have massive trust issues. Like Emma, it would take a lot of words and actions matching up before I’m gonna trust them. I’d probably have backed up by now if anybody got in my personal space like but she leans CLOSER to him. If somebody made me think for a second I didn’t have a choice in something, you better believe I’d have shut him down in a heartbeat and stormed off. That I owed him something? Forget it. But the way that Hook and Emma work together, they understand each other and they *get it* – he understands that it’s going to take a lot to knock those walls down. To get her to believe he’s being genuine. He is literally meeting her halfway and waiting for her to close the gap which she has and I fully expect her to do so again.
I *hate* guys that are exactly like people have been describing Hook lately and on the surface I see why they jump to those conclusions and again, we all have our own filters and what’s right for you won’t be right for me etc etc. (I kinda love not being on the same side of 99% of triangles as my sister. It just means we’ll never fight over the same guy!) but to say that Hook IS one of those examples of the kind of guy no woman should ever want and how dare we put him with the savior on the show even if it makes her happy is making me sick and that’s all I’ve seen everywhere today.
He is becoming more and more Killian and if it’s fine to fall in love with Rumple who has done goodness knows how many awful things including hold Belle captive, and we root for Regina who cursed everyone, massacred a town, and mentally abused her son into thinking he was crazy, then why not the man who lives by a code and wants to be the best version of himself too. This show is about hope right? There’s no point in redeeming Hook only to say here’s the example of the worst man in the world, ladies take note! (If they wanted to do that, he would have done whatever he had to for a fling with Emma and we wouldn’t see him falling in love with her, or the fact that she makes him want to be a better man and they certainly wouldn’t have proved any of that by showing us the caves or the genuine emotion on his face when she’s not looking).
He is not some fairy tale villain egomaniac with one thing on his mind. He didn’t say he wants to get into her pants (which, in a relationship, he will want to eventually and that’s a good thing if they’re gonna be, you know, in a relationship!!), but that he wants her HEART. He wants her to LOVE HIM as much as he loves her. This is something REAL for him.
He has a LOT of baggage to work through in his life but so does Emma. He’s kept his walls up for hundreds of years and is only just now letting someone else in, like with Emma and her decade+ of one-night-stands so nobody could hurt her. They are both broken but are fixing each other and building one another up to the best possible versions of themselves.
So to see someone who has been shown as a good man who is fighting to get back to that better version of himself (JUST LIKE RUMPLE), to say that someone who is insanely loyal, BELIEVES in the woman he loves completely, doesn’t mind being overridden even though he’s used to giving orders as a captain, respects the woman he loves enough for her to take charge and do things her way (he let both Milah and Emma deal with things the way they wanted to even though he would gladly fight to the death to defend them), the fact that he will always fight by her side and above that, to fight FOR HER HAPPINESS? Seriously sign me up. That’s not even including how incredibly good-looking he is, how much physical attraction/chemistry there is between them etc etc. It’s literally – he’s a good man who has been badly wounded and needs to be loved again just like…pretty much everybody else on this show, and that he and Emma are a good match and helping each other move forward from their tumultuous pasts.
I..can’t even begin to fathom why one side of a triangle is a saint and the other guy is the devil. At this point in the series given what we know and that’s it’s real, genuine emotion from him I just can’t anymore. I don’t get it. Some of us actually LOVE him and guys like him that are direct with how they’re feeling. Do they screw up sometimes or come off as a little pushy or obsessive? Sure they do! But that doesn’t mean that they can’t come back to reality when someone tells them to knock it off.
If he were all the things that people are accusing of him being right now (including things we haven’t even remotely seen like “because he’s a pirate he was clearing raping everyone” *screams*), there is no way in you know where that I would ever give a guy like that a chance. EVER. I wouldn’t dream of putting up with the nonsense. But Killian Jones? The toned down version that isn’t eye-roll worthy like he was at times in the beginning? The guy whose emotion you can hear in his voice when he lets you in? Absolutely.
Apparently my taste is extremely varied. I like nice guys too, but I also like the guy who’s been hurt and has his walls up but when you get to see the real them underneath it all, they just want to be loved like everyone else. Emma and Killian BOTH have walls up. They have baggage. They’re broken people. But that doesn’t mean he’s the worst guy ever and he’s certainly not on a path to be so. “Believe a pirate can be a hero” remember?
So I’ve had just about enough of seeing how “awful” he is absolutely everywhere today. I have issues with Neal and I haven’t always been kind to him but I still want him to find who he’s supposed to be with and think he’s deserving of love, regardless of the pain he caused Emma in the past (he had good intentions and let his fear get in the way etc etc, but it doesn’t mean he won’t get it right next time with someone else!). Rumple was hurt when Milah left even though they had a kid but he is CLEARLY so much better off with Belle and so many people root for them regardless of what he has done! (Including murder the woman who left him for another man). I feel that FOR EMMA, Hook is the better match, and that she can make up her own mind. She’s clearly not a dainty damsel in distress being led one way or another by the bad boy. That could have appealed to her (and probably did) in her one-night-stand days so that she wouldn’t get attached and thus hurt, but she has a kid now. She’s got Henry to think about. On top of that she now knows that fairy tales exist, she’s the product of true love, and watches what her parents have – she’s not gonna settle for less. Together, they “make quite the team” and Hook RESPECTS her for it. He takes orders from her and is by her side in everything! How is that a bad thing?
He’s not making choices for her but he puts his heart on the line and makes it known what he hopes for. He gives her options. He lets her know without a shadow of a doubt that she is loved and doesn’t wait years to make sure she knows it because he knows you can lose someone in the blink of an eye. He believes in her and supports her and gives up whatever he can to help her even if it means he’ll get his heartbroken. Yep, worst guy ever award right here!
I’m to the point where I love both guys but FOR EMMA I just can’t root for anyone but Hook given everything we know and I firmly believe it’s going in that direction. I want Neal to be happy but I want for him what I want for Rumple – that even though his first love didn’t work out, that somebody BETTER SUITED FOR HIM is out there and will make him happy, and smile, and not be a constant reminder of the pain of the past. We’ve seen a lot of that this season about loving someone and losing them and moving forward and finding who you’re supposed to end up with and that’s pretty much what Emma’s secret boiled down to me: that she wanted the easy way out (Neal being dead) so that she could finally move on and it’s made more difficult by him standing there (especially being nice and apologetic and understanding – it’s totally easy to get lost in the good memories for a bit), but that ultimately she WANTS to put him behind her and move on.
That sometimes you can love someone without being IN love with them and that even though you’ll always care about one another it doesn’t mean that you’re meant to be together. It’s almost as annoying to me as the argument about Henry’s family/his happy ending because in that case, Emma, Neal, and Regina should all live together under one roof along with Snow, Charming, Rumple and Belle, because his family is NEVER going to be normal. He already has 2 moms and he’s been just fine with that. (Will he wants his parents together? Of course, but TL isn’t about what somebody else wants for you. It has to be about what you want and I believe that Henry – being the trust believer and big on TL from his book and his grandparents etc etc ultimately wants that for all his parents too.)
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
So I think Hook didn’t want to: Be alone with a fighting Snow & Charming Leave Emma alone with Neal to give him the upper hand but more importantly Make sure things were ok between all 3 of them instead of leaving Emma alone to take the blame for what Hook revealed in the cave
Yes & these points too.
One last little thing to tag onto the end of that since I almost lost everything the first time so posted quickly………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Haha- Love “your last little thing to add” Kat :p
Well apparently it did cut off when it tried to post earlier and then I just lost everything I had after that so I’ll skip all the rant stuff (I’m seeing so much hate right now toward Hook and so much about Hook lovers being future victims of evil men because he’s the kind that should be stayed away from it’s ridiculous right now – including from people who a week ago shipped him with Ariel. The wilds should be safe! Tumblr has TAGS! Why am I seeing this garbage? *sigh*)
Anyways…
I don’t mind the questions and I actually really enjoy them and have found this to be a delightful discussion today! Sorry I write so much! It was asked in a respectful way and I hope that we have helped you in some way with our answers!
Even CSers don’t always agree about everything and we ask each other but asking the specific questions is a great thing and I love seeing them! It makes you really think about stuff and wonder if there is a reason you see something a different way, or if there’s something you forgotten – or recently, if I’m being hypocritical which I totally understand why it looked that way!
Other than saying we love love love an episode, we tend to stick to random points about this that or the other and some things get lost in the cracks, especially if we didn’t interpret a moment the way that many others apparently did so it’s nice to get a fresh look at that.
I’ll be very curious to see where you fall on it in the future PoM! I know many are on the fence or go back and forth at times (I’ve often wondered until recently which way they were going with it and which thing they wanted me to root for vs what I do root for. I think many of us have those moments on both sides of whether we’re getting our hopes up or not!), but I look forward to having the whole half season to look at as a unit as that usually gives more perspective too.
We’re getting bits and pieces and filling in our own blanks as we go along (some I take offense to with Hook like all the things thrown around about him because he’s a pirate even though we haven’t seen it *grr* he’s not going around raping people!!!), but after we’ve had a chance to see it play out, we go back and watch and laugh at the ridiculous headcanons we had back then and what we were worried about, and see it with fresh eyes.
I’ll be so happy when Emma has actually made a choice and it’s done with so we can go back and look for the clues that it was there all along! (I firmly believe they set up both to have something to cling to until this rotten mess is done and clearly both ships are popular and have good merits to either, some of us just have a very specific preference), but based on what we know right now, I still firmly believe in CaptainSwan and am trying not to let it worry me too much. Some episodes seem pro-the other way at first glance and then I still find good stuff that makes me believe even more but I do look forward to it being done with and looking back and I trust the writers.
With regards to upcoming stuff:
Stills are out now. Not sure what to think yet: It looks like Rumple, Neal, and Emma go to get Wendy but I’m not sure where Snowing, Regina, Hook, and Tink are at the time. I thought from the press release that Tink and Neal would be going off somewhere but it looks like if the group is separated, Hook and Emma are apart again. =/ That being said…it could potentially be really good. Should be some interesting looks before they part ways for a bit, and what I’m really really hoping is that we get some Tink and Hook scenes! From Tink’s interview, the actress said that they were friends/former allies and she teased that Tink “may or may not” help CaptainSwan so I’d love it if we got them talking about stuff and Tink saying something like “You really love her, don’t you?” and having a nice friendly chat about that since she’s big on TL and she’s pretty intuitive and should recognize that something is bugging Hook.
I still think she had a thing for him back in the day and whatever she did to pursue him, if she did, was enough to cause him to blush, but he’s firmly with Emma and he didn’t give up his revenge for Tink so I love the idea that they’re friends and we might get to see him have someone to confide in about Emma! He certainly can’t talk to Snowing or Regina about it, and with Neal and Rumple out of earshot and Tink by his side, maybe he can express some of these things he’s been thinking/feeling that haven’t been brought out so that we know his fears officially and stuff? He needs someone to talk to! Plus I’d love it if Tink wants to be helpful to think and I think that will be the case. She seems to think people have to be together if they are meant to be so she’ll want to make sure they get that. (Thankfully she shouldn’t have any pixie dust on her to help prove anything cause I want Emma to choose – not Tink’s dust to do it for her, but I think it would be nice if she offered to help Hook with it someday and he turns her down because he needs Emma to choose him and it would hurt too much knowing she should have if she doesn’t or something.
*we may need to prove it somehow someday so that the other side believes in and it’s officially over and done with but not until Emma chooses unless it’s done really really well* (I don’t want Emma to make a choice based on something looking like it’s proof or not. I’m still not sure what a TLK would do between Emma and Neal even because it worked for Emma and Henry and we know that Emma and Neal do love each other but aren’t in love but you don’t have to be IN love to make TLK work – apparently – so I don’t want to test it out by any of those means).
Likewise I have issues with next week’s Henry’s heart thing. We don’t know if Product of TL automatically = heart can’t be taken and we also don’t know if Emma could WILLINGLY take her own heart out, but it looks like Pan wants Henry to offer to do that with his so is the fact that his heart *might* be removable with permission/doing it himself automatically mean he’s not the product of TL? I just don’t know! So I feel like until they do something that legitimately proves it with none of these pesky technical questions, it won’t be over for the fans even if it’s over on the show. So I really need Emma to make a choice, stick to it and make it crystal clear, and then probably at some point, have her share an actual TLK to break goodness knows what (or pixie dust or SOMETHING to prove once and for all because I don’t think the fandom is going to hold together otherwise).
I do think it’s interesting that we saw pixie dust be brought into the equation this year. I think that TLK *might* work for Emma/Neal because it’s a genuine love and we know it worked for Emma/Henry, but then Charming had to wait for Snow (wouldn’t Henry have been able to wake him up?) – so I’m not clear on the exact dynamics of that which puts an asterisk for me.
Same thing with heart-pulling as I specified a moment ago. So I’m just not sure, but we did get another method introduced to us within this arc with the pixie dust. Tink doesn’t have any right now but if anybody down the line questions it and she does have some? She could always help an old friend out and offer to prove it once and for all so that both characters and fans will have to accept whatever the outcome is (and I fully expect the outcome of pixie dust to = Emma’s choice. I don’t see them having her make this huge emotional decision and then be like, nope, you were wrong, you need to pay attention to this guy.)
The only caveat I see with pixie dust proof is she keeps saying soul mate and there’s a whole big debate about soul mate vs TL though I’d like to think that Killian is both for her since they’ve already been established as kindred spirits and he gets who she is today better than anyone (and vice versa). Basically I don’t see this triangle ever being over within the fandom until a suitable person shows up for the 3rd wheel so that their guy is happy too, whichever it is.
Either way there’s a lot more to go and I can’t wait for the next episode! One step closer to finishing the triangle so that we can just root for our couple in peace!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
Insider.com: How much room does all this emotional exposition leave for love in Emma’s life?
Jennifer: It was definitely a priority for the writers this year to bring men into her life. Interestingly, I think we can’t truly be in healthy relationships until we work out issues with our parents, so I think it’s fascinating that they’ve chosen the season where she begins to learn about her parents to also be the season where she opens herself up to love. But Emma definitely won’t be the pursuer. She’s a tough nut to crack, but there are men coming into her life who aggressively try to break through her armor.
This was actually from S2 but we know that the narrative shifted slightly partway through that (pretty much when they got Hook and Neverland and that whole story started off!) and that Colin breaking his leg threw a wrench in some of that too but the core character stuff for Emma remains the same and I found the wording interesting given some recent concerns so wanted to share!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
I saw the stills and [s] Hook isn’t seperated. He’s with Emma, Neal and Rumple when they go to the camp to get Wendy. They’re the only 4 there.[/s]
Try the [ spoiler] & [ /spoiler] tags hookian (no spaces within the brackets though). Works a lot better for spoilers. 🙂
I was having problems pulling up all the spoiler shots earlier so I may have missed it but I remember seeing Neal, Emma and Rumple around Wendy, and then all of them with various people together in another scene. I was referring specifically to the Wendy in a cage stills. Hook is definitely with Neal Rumple and Emma at some point so he could have been just out of frame in the shots that I saw and I would love it if they weren’t separated, but I can’t *right now* tell which pics are from what scenes and we see some with the whole group together and then some with Neal Emma Rumple and Wendy. Were there any shots that I missed that actually had Hook in the scene with Wendy?
There are so many parts to this that between the promo, the press release, and the stills I can’t decide who’s where doing what at this point!
They are all together at some point, different combinations are different places so it’s possible that they all go after Wendy and we’re just seeing a few, and then we definitely see Rumple, Neal, and Emma with Regina in the cave etc etc, so I’m curious about where Hook is the rest of the time which is why I suggested he might be off having a private conversation with Tink somewhere, even if it is just out of frame while we’re having the DarlingFire reunion or something. I’d prefer if the group is all together at this point, but it really seemed like only Neal Rumple and Emma were with Wendy in that scene. On the bright side, if they’re separated it doesn’t look like it will be for long!
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
Just found this- it has to be more than coincidence- there are just too many! 😉
http://keepcalmwearetimeless.tumblr.com/post/54276562721/captain-swan-foreshadowing-from-top-left-to
Very interesting discussion, guys! My two cents
1. I think some of Hook’s belligerence towards Bae (despite the underlying affection) is because he’s starting to realize that Bae is responsible for Emma’s emotional walls. I think juvenile behaviour was just that..juvenile and not at all in keeping with the seriousness of the situation they were in, but Hook had been almost apologetic to Bae till then. Its only after he tells Emma that he’s going win her heart (and I think he gets some confidence that he has a fighting chance with her when she thanks him for telling them about Neal, because this meant she was seeing him for who he really was), that he starts off the “silly” competition.
2. About redemption, I don’t think its going to be all that simple and straightforward. I think there’ll be a fair amount of back-sliding like we’ve seen with Rumple and Regina too. The key difference is I think, that Regina and Rumple have someone they love dearly and who loves them back (Henry and Belle) to steer them back on the right path and remind them of the better version of themselves. I think Killian needs this too to fully achieve his redemption. Once he knows Emma loves him back for who he is, he will be a better person. He’s already got Charming’s grudging thanks for helping him and Snow doesn’t see him as completely bad either. So yes, while it’ll be a bumpy road ahead for him, he will continue to prove himself in his mission to win Emma’s heart and in doing so lies his redemption.
Interesting points of view everyone. This has been a nice pleasant debate to have with you all.
I don’t mind the questions and I actually really enjoy them and have found this to be a delightful discussion today! Sorry I write so much! It was asked in a respectful way and I hope that we have helped you in some way with our answers!
I totally agree with this guys! @PoM or anyone! – feel free to ask any questions that occur to you! I think it helps us all think some things through.
@MysteryKat, love everything you wrote haha, there are some interesting things in there that you’ve got me thinking about.
Insider.com: How much room does all this emotional exposition leave for love in Emma’s life? Jennifer: It was definitely a priority for the writers this year to bring men into her life. Interestingly, I think we can’t truly be in healthy relationships until we work out issues with our parents, so I think it’s fascinating that they’ve chosen the season where she begins to learn about her parents to also be the season where she opens herself up to love. But Emma definitely won’t be the pursuer. She’s a tough nut to crack, but there are men coming into her life who aggressively try to break through her armor.
But see, this is what we’ve been saying all along! We said that she needs to be aggressively persued – someone who won’t give up, no matter what is in the way! A fighter. And that man is Killian. Neal has ALREADY taken a step back from Emma as of 3×07. I don’t see Neal aggressively trying to do anything with regards to Emma.
About those stills: I am sooo confused because everyone is everywhere and we’re getting conflicting info so i’m not even going to try to figure them out.
Just found this- it has to be more than coincidence- there are just too many!
http://keepcalmwearetimeless.tumblr.com/post/54276562721/captain-swan-foreshadowing-from-top-left-to I TRY so hard not to read into all these things, all these signs of Killian. AGH it’s so difficult though. I would rather rely on what we know from the actual narrative (because in the narrative itself all signs point towards CS), but seeing those kinds of things is DEFINITELY encouraging 🙂
@polythenepam – I agree with everything you said! Except that Killian starts the silly behaviour. Because IMO it was actually Neal lol with his “thanks but she’s got me now”. It was that snarky line that prompted Emma to ask Killian what was up. But both men were equally silly in this episode (although it was quite amusing in an embarrassing sort of way) and i think that it is the last we will see of any of those silly triangle antics. I think A+E put that lighter scene purposely there to draw attention to the ridiculousness of it.Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss
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