The Captain Swan thread!

[surayya]

Now, as for the whole “he slept with her child’s, father’s, mother” thing- it was 300yrs ago! Come on, it’s not like they had kids of their own or were still ‘together’?! 🙄

If that’s just OTT ‘wrong’ & weird isn’t allowed any more, then they may as well tank the show now, as their whole family tree is very narrow & it seems everyone is connected to everyone else, one way or the other- Snow/charming more so than others!

That’s like saying siblings from Family A, cant BOTH marry siblings from Family B (ie Male A, marries Female B & Female A, marries Male B), because 1) they are sisters & brothers-in law &/or 2) 1 of the A sibling’s, slept with the B’s mother 5yrs before either B was born for instance…. This is the real world folks- sleeping with someone’s distant family member- esp an in-law, is just not a big deal these days!
It’s not something I’d personally go out & achieve- but I’m sure it happens more often than never 😉
I’m sure there are people out there who have married someone they love after finding out they had slept with their mother in law- In this case 300yrs ago AFTER she had left your father in law! 🙄

[MysteryKat25]

@Surayya wrote:

Loved watching Paleyfest too!
I’m just going to point out that for those people that need it pointed out- Remember ALL we know of Hook is from AFTER Rumple MURDERED Milah in front of Hook.

All we know about Hook, as fact, from before then, is he was your typical swashbuckling pirate (so egotistical, cunning & a bit of a bully), whom when a sad, lonely lady, looking for adventure came calling & made it clear that she neither loved or wanted to be with her ‘loser’ husband Rumple, he took her under his sail (wing just doesn’t seem right lol)/ protection & eventually fell in love with her…… that is it.
No murder that we know of as fact before then & the only attempted murder he committed happened AFTER & ONLY to Rumple himself.
They guy knows how to use a gun, if he wanted Belle dead when he shot her, he’d have killed her- he wanted her to loose her memory & wounding her with the gun was the method he had at hand & so the method he used- If he was truly evil, he’d have killed Belle twice over already (not including her lying in the hospital with no memory of him & so is easy pickings), killed Aurora, Killed Emma/ Snow/ Mulan when he had the chance & also killed Rumple BEFORE he became the darkone & killed Milah.

He hasn’t done 1/10th the bad/evil stuff Regina or Rumple has done (I doubt anyone…aside from Rumple can match Cora’s bad deeds to date), yet Hook seems to be taking the rap for his minor misdeeds, in the face of their real evil- people amaze me sometimes 😮 🙄

THIS a million times over! We know so much more about the other characters and I have a feeling / hope that once we get to see more of Hook’s story people will cut him a break. Rumple set in motion a whole curse that hurt a lot of people when he lost his son (which was his own fault) whereas Hook is singularly focused on his revenge of Rumple for taking Milah away from him (not to mention his hand).

I really think a lot of it stems from the fact that people already know a lot of Rumple’s backstory and have grown to love him (in spite of what all he’s done…) and they hate Hook simply because he’s against Rumple. Frankly I love them both and am looking forward to watching Emma find a way to get through to Hook (let’s face it…who else could??)

I want them both around for as long as possible so let them feud but do not pretend that Hook is somehow sooo much worse when all we’ve seen is his revenge path and hardly anything from 300 years prior before the woman he loved was murdered in front of him. Pretty sure Rumple wouldn’t sit around doing nothing if something happened to Belle and people would be all for it. Rumple spent his 300 years devising a curse that ruined a lot of lives, but heaven forbid Hook should spend his 300 years trying to find a way to get back at Rumple for killing the woman he loved right in front of him. At least he’s only after 1 person, not every story book character imaginable.

Again, I love Hook & Rumple, and there’s lots of potential for all the drama but I really think that’s where a lot of the Hook – hate comes from. Either that or people don’t get or like his sense of humor and are offended by him. In which case I sincerely hope they don’t like Jack Sparrow or any other popular pirate whatsoever. Just my 2 cents.

@Surayya wrote:

Now, as for the whole “he slept with her child’s, father’s, mother” thing- it was 300yrs ago! Come on, it’s not like they had kids of their own or were still ‘together’?! 🙄

If that’s just OTT ‘wrong’ & weird isn’t allowed any more, then they may as well tank the show now, as their whole family tree is very narrow & it seems everyone is connected to everyone else, one way or the other- Snow/charming more so than others!

That’s like saying siblings from Family A, cant BOTH marry siblings from Family B (ie Male A, marries Female B & Female A, marries Male B), because 1) they are sisters & brothers-in law &/or 2) 1 of the A sibling’s, slept with the B’s mother 5yrs before either B was born for instance…. This is the real world folks- sleeping with someone’s distant family member- esp an in-law, is just not a big deal these days!
It’s not something I’d personally go out & achieve- but I’m sure it happens more often than never 😉
I’m sure there are people out there who have married someone they love after finding out they had slept with their mother in law- In this case 300yrs ago AFTER she had left your father in law! 🙄

Crazier things have definitely happened and yes it was 300 years ago! Also, Emma & Neal were never married so there’s no in-law thing to speak of, not to mention the fact that Hook himself is in no way related to Neal or Henry or more to the point Emma so what’s wrong with that?? Does it make it a very weird way that they’re connected sure. There’s also people who are friends of a distant relative’s distant relative’s next door neighbor but if that’s how you connect to a person than who cares? There’s no blood relation there so I see no problem and again, it was 300 years ago. If there’s anything to be freaked out by it’s that but if Emma has a problem with that then we’re not gonna get SwanFire either. Not to mention that the first real ship on this show other than Snowing was RumBelle and goodness knows there’s an age difference there and if Belle doesn’t mind than I really doubt that it’s gonna stop Emma from following her heart someday – though both guys are a little in the doghouse at the moment in that regard.

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[surayya]

Right, now that I’ve finished with making those 2 points, back to why CS is best 😉

Killian as others have pointed out, is the kind of person who will stand by those he care’s for no matter what (even in death)- look at what he is doing for Milah; He is willing to die to avenge/ get justice for her (Rumple killed her for leaving him, so Hook wants to kill Rumple for murdering her- it’s not like he’s going after Rumple for giggles, he has a legitimate reason), so even in death, he is standing up for her & that is EXACTLY what Emma needs (minus his hell bent revenge bit- but he can give that up…. if he finds a reason to forgive, through loving again).

As for his OTT flirtations, I put those down to his version of Emma’s walls- he uses them to keep females at arms length & help prevent himself from falling in true love.
He could also be feeling responsible for Milah’s death, like he didn’t do enough to protect her etc & so wont allow himself to love again, for fear of the same thing happening again.

[surayya]

@MysteryKat25 wrote:

looking forward to watching Emma find a way to get through to Hook (let’s face it…who else could??)

Yes, I agree 100% 😀

Another thing I think, is when Emma learns the whole story of Hook, Killian’s loyalty & devotion will only endear him more to her- The fact he hasn’t given up on Milah, even after her death, will appeal to Emma on every level, as it is her deepest, most heart felt need (& the one thing she needs most to truly heal & love deeply enough to truly open up again), that Hook has, has demonstrated & proven he has in the highest amounts of any character on the show save Charming himself!

In fact, if daughter’s are suppose to marry those most like their fathers, then Hook is perfect- he is both sides of both the Charming’s- James & David (one charming, shallow & entitled, the other- charming, noble & honourable)- Hook is both 😆 😉

[sarah_tn]

I thought I was going to take a break…..

Confession time……….

I can’t stay away……….

Captain Swan is what I’m really hoping for. Thank goodness for fanfiction because without Hook these next few weeks, I think I’d be breaking out in hives. I’ve got withdrawal! 😀

[surayya]

@Sarah_TN wrote:

I thought I was going to take a break…..

Confession time……….

I can’t stay away……….

Captain Swan is what I’m really hoping for. Thank goodness for fanfiction because without Hook these next few weeks, I think I’d be breaking out in hives. I’ve got withdrawal! 😀

Hehe, I took a break as I’m so over all the swanfire & Neal stuff ….. That whole thing just makes me soooooo angry. The way he treated her, his poor reasons for it, how he reacted to her when she found him, how he reacted to Henry & his response to Henry’s anger at his mother GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 👿

I just had to have time out from even the possibility that H&K would even consider something so shallow & counter-character, as pair Neal & Emma back up- I really don’t know if I could still watch the show if they go there seriously, given it goes against who they have shown these characters to be + I’m finding the show a little flat of late & Hook/Killian + CS is the only thing really spicing it up & keeping me watching atm 😉

I think Regina should have a blood claim to Henry as well as legal claim- that can only happen if she falls for Bae, it’d make her comfortable that no matter what happens, she will always be in Henry’s life- despite Emma & likewise Bae in Henry’s life as well. That cant be possible any other way than for Regina & Bae to be together (unless Cora & Rumple had Regina, then she becomes his Aunt I suppose, but that makes it a very messy fix).

I’d just hate for them to go down the road of someone causing another they are meant to love, so much pain, injustice & trauma, yet the person simply takes them back because they are the father of her son & her 1st love- it’s just such a shallow & demeaning thing for a women in 2000 to do & that is NOT a good message to send to kids either.
Better she moves on to someone (*cough-Hook-cough*) who fills/answers her needs & see’s her as a partner/ equal, instead of someone who’s unable & needing protection. Emma can look after herself at the end of the day, she is strong & independent, so needs someone who will stand WITH her, supporting her in her actions, instead of someone who wants to rush in & take over from her.

[obisgirl]

Finally, we’re getting into the nit and gritty of Captain Swan which I have been thinking a lot about lately.

The thing that bothers me is calling Milah a step-grandmother or something when it comes to Emma, when there’s ABSOLUTELY no evidence that she and Killian married. As far as we know and seen, they only had a relationship and never married.

(If Milah and Killian did marry at one point, she would have been guilty of polygamy since she technically did not divorce Rumpelstiltskin; she left him, FYI).

[kfchimera]

There is no reason to gloss over the negative aspects of Hook’s character, just to justify pairing him with Emma. If anything, it makes the story more complex and interesting.

@Surayya wrote:

No murder that we know of as fact before then & the only attempted murder he committed happened AFTER & ONLY to Rumple himself.

Watch Queen of Hearts. Hook kills one of Regina’s guards just to break into Belle’s cell. When Belle won’t tell him anything useful, he raises his hook as if about to kill her too, but then Regina intervenes. He then agrees to go kill Regina’s mother to help him get to Rumpel. It is easy to overlook, since to the audience Cora is “the Horror” 👿 👿 👿 👿 . ..and a guard is a nameless, minor character but it is still murder and he is willing to do it/did it.

He may try to keep the collateral damage pretty low compared to other villains, but he is still willing to hurt a lot of people to get to Rumpel. He knocks out Charming to get his hook. He threatens to “dissect” Hopper, though he doesn’t actually cut him (nor free him!). He “borrowed” Aurora’s heart to get back on Cora’s good side. Then there’s what he did to Belle.

@Surayya wrote:

They guy knows how to use a gun, if he wanted Belle dead when he shot her, he’d have killed her- he wanted her to loose her memory & wounding her with the gun was the method he had at hand & so the method he used

It is really hard to say what his intent was with Belle at the town line. Just because you know how to use a gun doesn’t mean you’re a great shot in the dark. But even assuming his intent was to rob Belle of her memories, not kill her, that’s still pretty evil. His beef is with Rumpel, not Belle. He took everything away from her of who she was. Remember when Belle’s father Mo was going to take her memories from her?(Was that foreshadowing?It happened in the Hook centered episode The Crocodile.) Belle thought the action so horrible that she tells Mo that she never wants to see him again, that she can’t forgive him for it. Belle, the character who tries to see the good in everyone, cannot forgive her own father for trying to take her memories away. So I’d say causing a total memory loss is not a “minor misdeed”.

@Surayya wrote:

He hasn’t done 1/10th the bad/evil stuff Regina or Rumple has done (I doubt anyone…aside from Rumple can match Cora’s bad deeds to date), yet Hook seems to be taking the rap for his minor misdeeds, in the face of their real evil- people amaze me sometimes 😮 🙄

There is a spectrum of evil. At one end you have Cora, for sure, but then you have characters like the Blind Witch, George/Spencer, Sydney Glass,Hook,Maleficient Jefferson, Jimminy’s parents and others I forget. I absolutely agree that Regina and Rumpel are in Cora’s leauge , but some fans view those two as having mitigating circumstances (Rumpel’s curse, and the manipulation of Regina by her mother and Rumpel). The point is though, you can’t judge Hook only against the worst villains in the show, then say well he’s not evil because he’s not THAT evil! Compare him to the others I mentioned, and, while I’m not sure where I’d rank him, I’d put him on the list.
And maybe in this show we should not talk of evil, but of whether someone is capable of redemption or not. Hook having a romantic story arc and redemption could be exactly the direction the writers have in mind, because they do give hints that he is more than a one note vengeance machine. Not that I find a character bent on revenge to be unappealing or distasteful–Inigyo in the Princess Bride was always a favorite of mine. 😉

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[surayya]

@KFChimera wrote:

There is no reason to gloss over the negative aspects of Hook’s character, just to justify pairing him with Emma. If anything, it makes the story more complex and interesting.

I don’t think anyone has to be perfectly honest. It just hasn’t been discussed in full as this isn’t the Hook/Killian thread its the CS thread, so it only makes common sense that what is discussed in this particular thread, is that which pertains to them as a couple.

But I will bite & reply to your points here 😉 😆

@KFChimera wrote:

Watch Queen of Hearts. Hook kills one of Regina’s guards just to break into Belle’s cell. When Belle won’t tell him anything useful, he raises his hook as if about to kill her too, but then Regina intervenes. He then agrees to go kill Regina’s mother to help him get to Rumpel. It is easy to overlook, since to the audience Cora is “the Horror” 👿 👿 👿 👿 . ..and a guard is a nameless, minor character but it is still murder and he is willing to do it/did it.

He may try to keep the collateral damage pretty low compared to other villains, but he is still willing to hurt a lot of people to get to Rumpel. He knocks out Charming to get his hook. He threatens to “dissect” Hopper, though he doesn’t actually cut him (nor free him!). He “borrowed” Aurora’s heart to get back on Cora’s good side. Then there’s what he did to Belle.

Murder = killing unlawfully & with premeditation.
I doubt Hook had sat down & thought too much about who & what would be standing in the way of his revenge- it was more (from what we have seen & been told to date), if anyone happened to get in his way of revenge on rumple, he’d take them down.
Personally I don’t see someone as evil for knocking someone out instead of killing them- that is pretty mild/ honourable given he’s a pirate (& Charming means nothing to him), Regina, Rumple or Cora would have killed him out right- Cora didn’t have a problem with turning that guy into a fish.
Again Archie’s interrogation was mild given the evil we’ve seen the other 3 commit & as you point out nothing actually happened & why would he free him- he wants to take Rumple down for killing his love?!
He stated outright he never had any intention to harm Aurora, he simply needed to do what he did (not that that makes it the ‘right’ thing to do), to get to Hook- but he didn’t murder or kill anyone to pull it off- he could have, but he made the effort & but the thought into how NOT to.
I will discuss Belle with your Belle points other wise I’ll just end up repeating myself.
EF is not the real world, here guards have tasers not swords & they have to work with-in a law/legal system, that does not allow for the kill 1st & bury later mentality.
EF has no such laws, it is kill or be killed, esp when it comes to Rumple, Cora & Evil Queen.
If every time someone kills someone else, or defends themselves by killing someone who would otherwise kill them, was considered evil for doing so- everyone in EF is evil- its as simple as that, because all have fought their way out of battles & those battles & situations which have had casualties.

@KFChimera wrote:

It is really hard to say what his intent was with Belle at the town line. Just because you know how to use a gun doesn’t mean you’re a great shot in the dark. But even assuming his intent was to rob Belle of her memories, not kill her, that’s still pretty evil. His beef is with Rumpel, not Belle. He took everything away from her of who she was. Remember when Belle’s father Mo was going to take her memories from her?(Was that foreshadowing?It happened in the Hook centered episode The Crocodile.) Belle thought the action so horrible that she tells Mo that she never wants to see him again, that she can’t forgive him for it. Belle, the character who tries to see the good in everyone, cannot forgive her own father for trying to take her memories away. So I’d say causing a total memory loss is not a “minor misdeed”.

He said outright to Rumple (or Emma- cant remember now which it was)- killing Belle was pointless to his revenge, but taking her memories, her love of Rumple, hurt Rumple more, as Belle is where he keeps his heart.
To me (until it is otherwise stated in the show), that means he wanted her to loose her memories, not kill her out right- which is cruel yes- but I cant call it evil (that I reserve for cold blooded Murder).
The same is true for what happened when he went after her in Regina’s cell- we don’t know if he would have killed her out right, we can only assume at this point- given Rumple already thought she was dead, what would be the point in him killing her for revenge- which is what makes it weird & out of character for him to simply kill her at that point (as it gains him nothing), plus Regina stepped in.
Yes he agreed to go murder a women who had murdered many people before, again that was only because Regina told him that would get him his revenge on Rumple- no one has ever stated he was a saint, he was a pirate after all & is willing to die to gain justice/ get his revenge (also he never went through with it as Cora offered him a better deal to get to Rumple).

@KFChimera wrote:

There is a spectrum of evil. At one end you have Cora, for sure, but then you have characters like the Blind Witch, George/Spencer, Sydney Glass,Hook,Maleficient Jefferson, Jimminy’s parents and others I forget. I absolutely agree that Regina and Rumpel are in Cora’s leauge , but some fans view those two as having mitigating circumstances (Rumpel’s curse, and the manipulation of Regina by her mother and Rumpel). The point is though, you can’t judge Hook only against the worst villains in the show, then say well he’s not evil because he’s not THAT evil! Compare him to the others I mentioned, and, while I’m not sure where I’d rank him, I’d put him on the list.

I agree & disagree with you here- there is EVIL & there is BAD… Cora -to me- Is actually Evil (she’s prone to darkness by nature imo), despite her reasons for doing what she did, she has systemically MURDERED (sat down & planned out each & every death in detail) many, for slights committed against her or to get what she wants (all we know of at this stage at least anyway), those acts are evil in themselves, but the fact she actually PLANNED them is what makes her evil.
Regina is twisted, H&K have explained she only blames Snow because she cant blame her mother for Daniel’s murder, despite her mother committing it in front of her. Regina has committed acts of serious Evil & yes was indeed Evil herself for sometime as well, but she hasn’t quite reached the same level of planning murder like Cora has (she is more prone to reactive killings, than detailed planning), as it’s not in her nature to do so imo (the curse didn’t actually kill anyone, but the intention was to harm, which I can almost consider to be a cruel rather than evil act- mild distinction, I know, but there is a difference).
Rumple is bad/ darkone is Evil, but again Rumple isn’t evil not by nature, he is weak/cowardly, his evil acts come directly from fear & then later planning, when the curse took hold, consuming him & he chooses to hold on to that evil power, over the love & well being of his child which is bad, not evil.
Hook isn’t Evil (from what we have seen to date),by nature. He has committed acts of cruelty & violence/killed in the heat of his revenge BUT again this has all been AFTER Rumple murdered his love in front of him- NOT BEFORE. His one act of Evil will be his planning to kill Rumple- but he didn’t follow through on that when he saw Rumples reaction to Belle on the boat, he changed tact & decided to take Rumple’s LOVE away from him- so he could feel/suffer like Hook had, cruel yes- evil no (evil would have been to murder her).
All we know of before is he was a pirate, so a bit of a bully, but who had honour & a code of ethics almost boarding on chivalry (from a pirates point of view anyway)- which makes him a good, bad guy.
He told Emma (I think it was), that wasn’t interested in hurting anyone, but if anyone chose to stand between him & his vengeance on Rumple, he would take them down- again this indicates he doesn’t outright kill for the sake of killing or plan on murder like the above 3 have shown to do.
So yes, I agree that while he isn’t a ‘good guy’ (& remember Charming has killed, Red has killed & I’m sure many if not all the others – aside from Snow at this point have also killed protecting their way of life or rights in EF), he isn’t exactly a bad guy (yet) either- he’s only out for the one person, for a good reason (not that I agree with whole eye for an eye thing) & has no intention of harming anyone who doesn’t put themselves in his path.

I personally don’t see him in the same league as the George/Spencer, Sydney Glass or Maleficient- all those choose to commit murder/kill for their own satisfaction, nothing more (although Maleficient may be excused from this- we don’t know enough about her OUaT character to be certain she/was is actually evil or more bad/cruel).
No one has ever said “he’s a good guy”, but by the same token he isn’t close to as as evil as some are saying he is (esp given those same people make excuses for Rumple, Regina & Cora being & doing what they had done) & that is what that comment is referencing- Nothing else. Your point there is only agreeing with what CS shippers have all said about Hook since page one.

@KFChimera wrote:

And maybe in this show we should not talk of evil, but of whether someone is capable of redemption or not. Hook having a romantic story arc and redemption could be exactly the direction the writers have in mind, because they do give hints that he is more than a one note vengeance machine. Not that I find a character bent on revenge to be unappealing or distasteful–Inigyo in the Princess Bride was always a favorite of mine. 😉

Yes I agree with you there & yes they have said from before S2 started, that their Hook was going to be a very complex guy & not your typical Hook ‘villain’- I almost see him as almost a kind of anti-hero (until he does something cruel & doesn’t put it right). I can understand why he does what he does & he rarely goes OTT with it, so for me he is more relatable. At the end of the day if Rumple hadn’t killed his wife, Hook would never have been ‘born’ & Killian’s capacity for going as dark as his nature will allow may never have been awakened.

I’ll be honest when I say this- I NEVER, EVER liked Hook per-say as a character, growing up- he was just a bad guy out to get Peter pan (who I was never in love with either lol), It is THIS version of Hook & Killian, that I Really like, because he is relatable- they’ve done a very good job with this character imo 😉

WOW! Sorry this is so long!!!! 😳

[surayya]

I will just point out, that I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you have said KFChimera. In fact you seem to agree with pretty much all the CS shippers in this thread, it’s just some of the stuff is taken out of context, as it was in response to a number of statements made by non-CS fans, further back in the thread 😉 For the most part, you are thinking along the same lines as the rest of us. 🙂

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