The Captain Swan thread!

[surayya]

The theme will be facing the consequences of a villainous past. Robin had thought Marian’s death was his fault and didnt know that in the unaltered timeline Regina’s excessive vengeance was responsible for it.

I like it & It ties in with anything Hook may have done re.Urn collecting/gathering (the lids on the urns are different, so it’s not the ‘same’ one as Elsa’s) & also with Rumple’s actions with Zelena.

 

You know what I’ve decided? You know how people always say that men don’t understand women??? I think a big problem with the people who hate Killian and hate CS is that they don’t understand men.

I think many people forget that this show is created by two MEN and, as such, we are often going to be presented things from a male point of view. Now A and E have done a great job of creating FEMALE characters on the show who aren’t the traditional females that you think of when you think of fairy tale princesses etc. They are strong and independent and kick-butt, they can hold their own in a sword fight, they are the ones who end up saving the day, etc. But most men (I say most not to stereotype, but honestly this applies to EVERY man I know and every man I have heard about from friends, etc) have a very specific notion of what it means to be a man who is on a epic quest for adventure. Hence, the reason we have the traditional prince characters in fairy tales and the more modern characters such as those in Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark, and every men’s favorite movie “Braveheart.” It’s just a guy thing. And A and E are guys. So even though they have “modernized” the women on OUaT, A and E also want to have strong male characters on the show as well.

A classic element of a strong male character to men is the ability to “rescue” a woman BUT this does NOT mean that the woman is WEAK and has to be rescued because she is so weak she can’t take care of herself. This is where I think people are completely misunderstanding things. The “rescuing” a woman thing means that they have a need to rescue or provide the woman from or with something that only HE can provide her with. Killian is the PERFECT example of this. He has no doubt that Emma can take of herself, he knows that she doesn’t “need” him – she could survive just fine without him. He understands that she is actually more powerful than he is because of her magic, he is well aware that she is royalty and holds a higher station in life than he does. But for Killian what he wants to rescue Emma from is her own self-doubt and inability to trust. That becomes his quest – and having a quest is very important to a man. In fact it’s so important that many men fall into a deep depression when they retire from working because they feel as if they no longer serve any important purpose in their life. So Killian’s quest is to “save” Emma but the haters have completely misunderstood what that means because they don’t understand what that looks like from a man’s perspective.

It’s also the reason people are calling Killian a misogynistic pig (I swear if I read that one more time I’m going to puke) for appreciating what Emma looks like and for saying they are destroying Emma’s character by having her like it. Men are visual by nature – that is how they are stimulated, it’s a simple fact. Women aren’t stupid, they know this – I’ve never heard of a women deciding to pull sweats out of the dirty laundry hamper, remove her makeup, and not shower for two days before going on a first date. Women purposely put more attention into what they look like when they go out with a man because they want to look appealing for him. Anyone can try to deny this and I won’t believe them. A and E are men. Men like boobs. There are a LOT of boobs on this show. Trust me – my husband points them out to me every week. But I haven’t heard anyone complain about boobs until Emma yanked hers up to distract past Hook. That doesn’t make Hook or A and E misogynistic pigs. It makes them men and it makes Emma smart. You know what I do when my husband and I get to go out for a nice, special occasion date alone? I get dressed up and wear something revealing that shows off the girls. Why? Because my hubby likes my boobs. That’s right. He’s a man – he likes ‘em, I’m a women – I’ve got ‘em, funny how it works out that way isn’t it??? So it really shouldn’t be all that surprising that as CS relationship has progressed we see Killy enjoying Emma’s body in a more appropriate fashion than Captain Innuendo and Emma being receptive to it – and actually enjoying it. Because remember two men create this show. And something else men LOVE is knowing that the woman they love wants to share her body with him.

Hence the scene where present Killy gets jealous that Emma is prepping the girls for past Hook. Coming from a man’s perspective this whole scene is interesting for a number of reasons. First Killy is being jealous and protective of Emma – especially her body and her sexuality. At this point, even though it hasn’t been established, he views her as “his” – not in the “I own her” way that the haters have insisted upon, but in a “it’s my job to protect this part of her” way. Men are extremely protective of their wife’s or girlfriend’s body, just watch what happens in a bar sometime if a guy even THINKS some other guy is hitting on his wife or girlfriend. So A and E have some serious fun with this scene. Emma knows exactly how to distract past Hook cause she knows exactly what she and current Killy would like, and Killy can’t do anything about it because it’s HIM she’s trying to distract. . . until he has to WATCH it. This is every man’s worst nightmare, but in Killy’s case it’s even worse for two reasons. One – HE hasn’t gotten there yet. And two – he honestly feels that he needs to physically protect Emma from his past self. This is really important because they have already established over and over that he knows Emma can take care of herself so he isn’t trying to say she can’t hold her own. But, as a man, he is so protective of this aspect of Emma that he doesn’t even trust his past self with her – even though they made it perfectly clear that past Hook was completely love struck and wasn’t going to hurt her (and Emma seemed to be having fun). He wasn’t just jealous, he had become such a different person that he viewed past Hook as another man pawing Emma and that past version of himself was not good enough for her. So just like what would happen at a bar – Killy knocks him on his butt.

I’ve also seen people complaining about Killy saying that one day he was going to stop chasing after this woman before he jumped into the portal after Emma. They say it’s a misogynistic comment because he is treating Emma like a wild animal who needs to be chased. First, please excuse me while I find a bucket to puke in. Second, this is just DUMB. And you don’t have to be a man to understand this one – just standing upright and breathing – but I’ll point it out anyway. Killy’s a guy. He is on his quest to save Emma from her self-doubt. She hasn’t gotten there yet – she hasn’t figured out that SB and all the people that love her are her home. He is on his quest to get her to trust again. Part of her trust issue is that people leave her and/or don’t go after her when they can. She was just sucked into a portal. Killian CAN go in after her – so he HAS to because it’s part of his quest to save her from her lack of trust. THIS is his “chase.” His quest is his chase. He has to keep doing all these crazy things and going to all these dangerous and unknown places but it is all part of his quest/chase to save Emma. It was a tongue in cheek comment – basically “Here we go again!! The things I’m willing to do for this woman!!”

This message was approved by my husband . . . who is a man.

And NOT a misogynistic pig even though he likes my boobs.

 

This! I to Agree 100% Now I dont have your experience, nor a husband or current BF to lay claim to, but I do have a father figure, many brothers, cousins & friends whom are male & your whole post makes total sense to me.

Your last point too is something that would be ticking me off if I wanted to buy into the stupidity of the haters… Here is a man WILLING to fall into a portal to go to unknown dangers, lands & even time for the women HE has chosen to LOVE, whether or not SHE feels the same in return- What is Emma supposed to “Invite” him into peril before it’s ok for a him to be justified going after/ wanting to help/ wanting to protect her?

For gods sake, Emma has never, not once, told Killian she isnt interested in Him & wants him to stop fighting/flirting/chasing after her, so of course Killian is going to after her (seriously the creators have already said Hook/Killy was meant for Emma- so ALL the flirtations, dropped comments by OTHER characters about how those 2act love struck/attracted to each other etc. IS CANNON fact!)… since when is someone facing danger & peril ALONE ever a better idea than having someone who wants to help you face it there? It really is hypocrisy to the highest degree when you see SF shippers going on how that line makes Hook a pig, yet they are all for Neal dismissing EVERYTHING Emma say’s to him in Echo caves & telling her he’ll fight for her no matter what, as some be romantic gesture- THAT my friends was being a misogynistic PIG!

I also think the haters/other shippers who are constantly demeaning our ship, Hook/Killy & even now Emma, are the ones who need to wake up & look in the mirror- THEIR opinions on Killian’s & Emma’s are just that THEIR OPINIONS. The creators & writers know what is OOC or not for each of the characters involved & the fact the creators, you know the guy’s who actually thought up Emma & Killian & have brought them to life in the 1st place, have clearly & categorically stated to their world wide audience, that Hook/Killy truly loves Emma (so he’s hardly going to be misogynistic in any way towards her!) & that Emma has feelings for Hook/Killy (hence her looks & allowing him to ‘chase’ after her).

I mean by some peoples remarks, NO man should EVER have the gall to try convince a women to give him a shot…. it’s sooooooo misogynistic for men to openly, yet carefully pursue a women whom is scared to love again for fear of being hurt …again. Come on, it doesnt take a neurobiologist to understand that often those whom have been hurt the deepest, NEED someone prepared to put in the highest levels of time & effort required to PROVE that they are worth the risk & then love them the deeply. And Sorry, but there is NO way a man can do that without being present & involved in her life- it just isnt going to happen! So I think the whole Hook pursuing Emma = him being a misogynist, or a stalker blah, blah, blah only proves the the heights of delusion some people are willing to go to in order to feel “right” about what they want to have happen, to hell with common sense, logic & cannon fact!

[tangeledweb]

Did Tink ever use the word true love regarding OQ. I remember soul mate, is soul mate interchangeable with true love? Hmm I have to go back now and rewatch. Think I will go back to the beginning and rewatch the whole show. That is once I can get past rewatching the finale every night haha. It’s amazing how much you can catch when you know what to look for; these writers are brilliant! On rewatch of 3×1 or 3×2 (think it was 3×2) I swear I saw a flying monkey out the window of Rumple’s castle when Bae was in there with Mulan before he sees that Emma is in NL. Haven’t freeze framed to confirm though.

[surayya]

YES YES YES. I agree 100% with every single one that you have here.

I have not read those stupid comments … but that is absolute nonsense. They are not even playing devil’s advocate – that is just being disagreeable and belligerent. And if he let her go through alone he would have been villain-ized as the Biggest Baddest Baddie out there – far surpassing both the DO and Cora.
And not for nothing Emma is out of her element in the EF and again, even if she can navigate the EF without issue – who really wants to be sucked through a time portal to another world alone? Really? Anyone? If that could happen, I would be more than glad for the company – any company, but a big strong man would really be the top of my list… and one who knows how to use a sword – even better.
And I do not say this as a simpering delicate girlie girl. I have always been of the mindset that I can do anything if I put my mind to it and time and dedication to learning. I while I am more than capable of doing repairs and taking care of myself if needed – if my husband is willing and able – I am not going to complain. Because like all of you – I have plenty of other things on my To Do List. So feminists still down and enjoy that fact that a man WANTS to do these things for you… and hopefully he is shirtless while doing so. He he
So again I’m sure all you strong kick butt woman out there can agree… Emma is more than capable of handling herself and just like RGF said, it is not that Killian is NEEDED to save her, he WANTS to save her. I agree that a man sees the protection of what is ‘HIS’ as his number one priority: his materials, his home, his family – both woman and children. That means protection and providing for them – working hard to put a roof over their heads, food in their bellies, and clothes on their backs. .. and that is not to say women do not contribute. I work very hard as do all of you… in this day and age it is luxury if you are able to choose to stay home and raise the kids… but I do not think we take it as personally or use this as our benchmark of being a good mother and wife/girlfriend. I think while women see more of the daily operations to be more of a benchmark for our self-worth: we made a nice healthy meal for the kids, we have them cleaned and healthy, we have made a nice home for ‘our’ man and ‘our’ children, etc… IMO – it is more of a man’s perspective to look at the large picture from centuries of it being engrained in them that this is what a man does and I am sure that there is just as much ‘natural instinct’ involved as well. And as RGF said – when taken away, a man may feel unneeded and less of a man. Just like us Mom’s are super proud when our children can do something independently but it is bittersweet as they no longer ‘need’ us. its the same thing
Men are men and they are different and these are some of the reasons why…look at animals in nature… being possessive / territorial and testosterone filled is normal for MALES…it is what it is and for a man to be more lax in such things is actually more of an evolution away from nature due to the continue decrease in the need for such things.
And as far as ‘possession’ as woman do we not consider our husbands and boyfriends ‘ours’… not like a thing but still never the less ours? my man, my husband, my BF…
I don’t know about the rest of you – but boyfriends that I had that were ‘less manly’ and ‘capable’ didn’t last long. Even though I could do it, I would start to lose respect for him if he couldn’t. I while I can, I want to know that I have a strong man would can do it right along with me and has my back in anything… everyday tasks or grand adventures.

I hope I did not offend any of my fellow CS shippers – I know this topic has so many opinions… this just happens to be mine

I agree with you as well Jenven, esp on the possession thing! You cant sit there & argue equality, then on the other hand say well it’s ok for females to ‘objectify’ their men by the use of “mine/our/my”/ ‘possessive pronouns’.

Great post @rumplegoldfan I can’t tell you how many arguments I’ve been and have thought, this person really doesn’t get how guys think? They certainly can’t tell when a guy is trying to do something nice for someone! Beyond Hook look at Charming who as Chamring has lied to Snow to help her! Girls do not get this! They really don’t it’s stupid but we will lie to you if we think it’s protecting you or helping you in someway. We can’t stand the look on the face of the woman we care about when they get upset so we subconsciously do it on instinct! Guys that care about a woman instinctively just want to provide something for that woman. Women who are independant and don’t need us it’s hard for us! We try to find a place in their life where we can find some use! I hear a lot of women who have it together and basically show that they don’t need anything from a man have trouble in relationships, and I’d say it’s because as guy’s we don’t see a use for ourselves in this persons life lol The other side of that is feeling like we’re appreciated too but to summarize we’re basically dogs. Pet us on the head and make us feel like we have a place in your life and we’ll never leave your side.
You’re also right on when it comes to the physical stuff, hey we like the way you look! We like to look at you! It’s nothing degrading, when it gets degrading is when a woman has good looks and no respect for herself.

And about that line before Killian jumps after Emma, it’s like seriously? Do people not have a sense of humor? This man will go anywhere and through anything to be by Emma’s side! He can’t have a “here we go again” moment?! Puke is right it’s friggin’ ridiculous especially when he’s proven time and time again that he’d do anything and go anywhere for Emma.

I’m so glad we have a guy on our ship 🙂 At least we know we arent talking out or backsides lol & we get a male’s perspective on things, it’s great 🙂

[Killian Jones]

^^^ I’m glad I can do that for you all lol It’s hard to argue with some people a lot of the time because when i try to lay in how it looks from a guy’s point of view the never want to hear it!

[surayya]

Robin now knows that Tinkerbelle told Regina that she and Robin were TL but that Regina chickened out and didn’t go get him in the tavern. Tinkerbelle got mad at Regina because she told her that not only did she ruin her own life when she chickened out but she also ruined other people’s lives. I think this is where we are going to see how lives were ruined.

This is exactly what I think as well.

If that is the case, what now?? Everything is all messed up. You have Robin and Marian back together who were never supposed to be together in the first place and weren’t supposed to get back together, you have Marian away from whoever her TL is, you have Regina and Robin KNOWING they are TL but can’t be together, you have everyone thinking Regina executed Marian in an original past but they really don’t know that for sure AND it NEVER happened in the re-do past. It’s a big mess!!

The case now? OQ are officially in the same place as all the other Once couples- Angst-ville (while aside from CS atm, but I’m sure we’ll be back there in short order as well) 😉

^^^ It was part of our insidious plan when we were setting up the world economy that way once you women would see how little you need us we would still have a fail safe 😛

Bahahahahahaha, that’s good- I know a few ladies who will get a kick out of that 🙂

But when a small portion of his fandom creates and perpetuates such an unhealthy and bile covered hateful vendetta against the writers (and another male character) because they chose to write Neal and his story as they wanted… I am now content that his character is gone. Those “fans” in their rabid hate for Hook are the ones who have left a bad taste in the mouth of viewers for Neal ~and done him more harm than any of the writers could.

Will they REALLY quit watching the show?…I hope so. OUAT doesn’t need that destructive and self-serving kind of fan sticking around and spreading ugliness. END RANT

Very well said! Agreed. I had started to ‘like’ Neal, but the hate & the level of stupidity & hypocrisy thrown about some SF & SQ shippers, at what our own ship stands for & Hook in general, far from putting me off my own ship, actually has me me starting to seriously dislike the ‘idea’ of Neal as a character again & seriously drives my tolerance levels for crack ships like SQ down :/

I mean you cant cry lack of respect for your own ship/opinions, when those opinions by their very nature, lack respect for other ship/s & opinions.

 

I avoid the other threads because of all the hate. It’s too bad because it makes me miss out on some good conversation I am sure. Yes Hook likes to flirt and use sexual innuendos. It’s fun, some people are just too uptight for that I guess. He is a man of honor. Even the old version that brought Emma to his ship told her he hoped she hadn’t changed her mind. He is used to women enjoying his flirtation. I know I sure do and so does Emma.

This brings up a VERY good point, so thank you @tangledweb! Yes, Hook may be use to women falling for his charms, but as you point out- he wasnt about to “keep them” against their will if they didnt want to ‘stay the night’, even when he was a pirate!

@RGF I love Elsa as well 🙂 & you are soooooo lucky to have a child to take to see those movies lol

[surayya]

Hi J! Yay! Another de-lurker 😉 Welcome to the fun 🙂

Lurker here, hi :). The finale was everything I hoped it would be, and I’ve rewatched it more times than I care to admit to. My favorite scenes were with past Hook. I loved Killian creeping around behind them, it reminded me of Moulin Rouge. I can’t even with Saint Neal, so I won’t. I notice a lot of the people talking about rape culture and Hook being a misogynist, are the same ones who believe he stole Milah. Which he didn’t, she made a choice – which seems to only be okay for a woman to make as long as all the other women in the world agree with her. Apparently we all should just stay in loveless relationships because… history? Emma was walled off, the only way to break through that is by being there for her so that she realizes he isn’t going anywhere. He never forced her and she never said no. The one unwelcomed kiss – she kicked him in the junk. She is hardly a delicate flower. I don’t even know if I made sense, I’m annoyed.

I totally agree with you!

First of all, let me say WOW! You guys are on a roll! It’s going to take a while to read thru all the posts but I wanted to put this here for you to read, just a continuation of the Past Hook vs Killian theme. From http://boyfriendhook.tumblr.com/post/85736139444/also-i-dont-really-know-how-to-word-this-or-if Also, I don’t really know how to word this or if this will make any sense at all. I could probably write a meta about it, but I’m lazy so you have to deal with this. The past!Hook/Emma scene was probably — hands down — my most favorite part of an episode to date. I love the kisses, I love the witty remarks between them, but that scene was everything. Why, you ask? Because it shows how quick Hook falls, no matter when they meet. That was what I initially loved about the pair. In The Doctor and Tallahassee, he falls for her so quickly, he’d do anything she asked of him, be of use in whatever way (once he stops with his ridiculous blacksmith ruse). He drops his whole revenge desires, his work with Cora, because of Emma. Of course, then she goes and ruins it all and can’t handle the way she feels (I can’t be wrong about you bla bla these feels are too much to handle). My favorite line from the entire series, thus far, I think, is Killian’s “Otherwise, I’d remember that damn bar wench I kissed. I know how you kiss. I’d have gone after her. But I didn’t. My life went on, exactly the same as before.” It’s really, quite frankly, no different than his line in the Echo Cave… “Until I met you.” Because she’s it for him. His entire life begins again when he meets her. She’s the light at the end of his tunnel. People have always acted like Hook is some massive villain or some terrible evil, but did you see him as past!Hook with Emma? He cleared out everyone else and was sitting there with her — completely focused on her. Sure, he wanted to do her, but let’s be real, she wasn’t the least bit against it. They go back to the Rolly Joger and she tells him what to do — the CAPTAIN of the ship, was just told what to do by a bar wench. And then, AND THEN, when she “got tired of waiting”, he apologized for not giving her his prompt attention! I mean, that Hook’s far more lusty and raring to go with ours, but that’s because our Killian has had more time to mature, more time to grow. But, whether they meet in the past or they meet in a slain camp of villagers — Hook falls for Emma. Just harking back to what A and E said, that Hook was “always” meant for Emma. I’d like to believe that he’d fall for no matter when he met her because they were always meant to be each others TL.

Thanks for posting that here @callmeLola! How very true it is- Hook was “destined” for Emma- time & place are irrelevant, past loves are irrelevant as TL happens were & as it should or things get VERY messy, very quickly, as I’m sure OQ will show. I love OQ, not to the same degree, nor with the same intensity as CS, but I do hope they will get the HEA together- call me hopeless romantic at heart lol 😉 I do wonder if thats why Neal was no longer required, because OQ will better show that TL couples should be together otherwise “bad” stuff will happen to them. I mean we already saw what happened to Emma, what she went through being with Neal, but now she has a chance at happiness with her TL/Killy, yet it wasnt her actions, nor Killy’s originally that got them to that point (that was Rumple on both counts). With OQ however, it comes down to Regina’s choice/action not to follow through with TL & the consequences of that decision. So it’d make sense for that ship to show how TL should be fought for & why.

[ellemo78]

Except for brief moments of coolness and cute grins, Neal came across, to this very male appreciative woman, as a bit of a dullard.  Only in the minds of runaway fan fic and  faux stardust hero worship was he anything even close to shining armor territory. I didn’t think he needed to die. I was sorry that the writers chose not to continue his story but they did connect it to Rumple’s story needs. It did serve their purpose, their story. And as viewers, we are simply a third party participant, once removed. At the mercy of their writing Gods. But, he is dead.  He was already dead as a possible lover to Emma. He didn’t even spend that much real time in her life with her.  Appreciate him as the adult continuation of a fascinating  boy, appreciate him as a son loved by his supremely flawed father, appreciate him as a first love for a young troubled woman, appreciate him as the father of an amazingly imaginative and courageous boy who has in essence more raw courage and conviction than either of his parents! Appreciate what he brought to the bigger tale. He deserves that appreciation.

I totally agree with @bo-peeps here.

I really like Bae as a boy, he was great. But something happened to him along the way and I didn’t like Neal as much. Somehow I couldn’t quite connect Bae/Neal in my mind as being the same person.

If one is to engage with the primordial forces of darkness, one must expect a little social awkwardness

[Epona_610]

So…I just had to pop in and point out another instance of blatant hypocrisy among the Hook haters (in addition to the whole misogyny thing)–it hit me because I keep seeing cutesy references (mostly on Tumblr) to the whole tumblers (haha) lock-picking flashback with Neal. That’s nice and all, but how is it super cute for Neal to teach Emma (who was still a minor when they met) all kinds of criminal behavior while it’s positively outrageous for Hook to teach Henry about loaded dice? Honestly I didn’t particularly like that scene either, but cheating at dice isn’t much compared to grand larceny, trespassing, and breaking and entering. Just saying.

(And for the record, I don’t hate Neal. I do strongly dislike blatant hypocrisy and poorly-thought-out rants.)

[surayya]

^^^ I’m glad I can do that for you all lol It’s hard to argue with some people a lot of the time because when i try to lay in how it looks from a guy’s point of view the never want to hear it!

WOW! Really?! That really does go to show how much some people simply want to be “right” rather than informed o.O It’s also more than a little sad.

[surayya]

So…I just had to pop in and point out another instance of blatant hypocrisy among the Hook haters (in addition to the whole misogyny thing)–it hit me because I keep seeing cutesy references (mostly on Tumblr) to the whole tumblers (haha) lock-picking flashback with Neal. That’s nice and all, but how is it super cute for Neal to teach Emma (who was still a minor when they met) all kinds of criminal behavior while it’s positively outrageous for Hook to teach Henry about loaded dice? Honestly I didn’t particularly like that scene either, but cheating at dice isn’t much compared to grand larceny, trespassing, and breaking and entering. Just saying.
(And for the record, I don’t hate Neal. I do strongly dislike blatant hypocrisy and poorly-thought-out rants.)

I’m with you & good catch there! I’m also very just & cant stand double standards at all, so I totally understand what you mean about not hating Neal, but hating the overt hypocrisy his character is elevated under by some within the fandom.

[Author]

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