[Myril]

Shortly after watching this episode I pictured the writers sitting for hours, days in a room, twisting their brains how to make all the different story lines work in this one episode, chewing the script over again and again. Imagined after long hours they accepted their fate: make it work but don’t expect it to be good. The episode left me with a sour taste.

Belle would have deserved a well developed story line letting her shine as smart and brave heroine, but not this one. It explored her sometimes incomprehensible will to stick to Rumple and fight for the good in him, but I never felt like that really needed that much more exploration. But it was nice to see, how in Fairy Tale Lands as well as in the present time in Storybrooke a bit of geekiness helps to save the day, and not muscle and sword. Okay, in Storybrooke in the end the day was not saved, not for everybody. But still: never underestimate a bookworm.

One thing that made Belle’s flashback story line worth it was how they intertwined it with how Phillip and Mulan met, adding a tidbit of information about Maleficent’s quest against Aurora and her family. Another epic battle of evil against good, and I certainly would like to see more about it (not the least to see Kristin Bauer van Straten again). Guess for now have to live with the tease.

Okay, for a greater impact of the last minutes of this episode they had to flesh Belle’s story out here, make clear, a) she’s all determind to fight what she believes in, and that is that there is good in Rumple, b)show how much influence she has on Rumple, at the moment she is the only one who really can get through to him. Makes the loss of her memory, of her identity at the end the more dramatic. A new obstacle for Rumple. Setback on his way to redemption, who is going to hold him back now when it comes to Hook?

It’s an episode which IMO needs some fanwanking ( = finding the best explanations fans can come up with out of good will, after long sleepless nights and days, too much coffee infused into the body and tons of sweets and junk food)

Well, reading books doesn’t equal experience, but even dumber bookworms hardly would have had the utterly stupid idea to go for a monster kill with just a tiny knife, it would have been at least a monster sword. That was over the top, and think out of character for Belle. It’s not just the small knife, it’s going for a kill first and ask questions later attitude for a brief moment. Really?! Belle’s not a pacifist, but she’s not a hothead either. Well, of course, maybe she only wanted to poke the hybernating beast for a while until it would surrender exhausted by laughter. Or only wanted to trap the beast and the small knife was for not seriously meant self-protection. Or she wasn’t thinking at all overwhelmed by childish excitement to be in an adventure. Whatever.

What did Archie do after Belle freed him and he went to Rumple do get him to the ship? Did he stay there at the pier? Did he go for a walk to sort out his thoughts? Take a shower? I know, time is a b****, so possible some things in Storybrooke we saw happened nearly at the same time. I seriously expected Archie to follow Pongo storming into the apartment, but turned out it was just Emma bringing Pongo for Henry. But doing it in that scene would have been in the middle of the episode, and it would have taken attention away from the Belle-Hook-Rumple storyline, so the writers had to postbone Archie’s return. They could have done it at the diner, ending David’s and Snow’s little banter, although this would have distracted from the banter. Somehow think that doing it in the first 10 minutes of next episode could even have worked better, depending on the next episode. But instead we got this awkward moment with Henry and Emma. Get it, they had to build up to the knock at the door with something, so they threw this piece of painfull filling-a-moment at us. And because they had so no time left and to hurry for the big showdown final of the episode, they left us with only a very unsatisfying tease. Oh, of course, they will have to tell Regina, hoping to stop her before she explodes into a rage against them. Good luck with that. I hope that this is not it, this short moment, it should rattle Emma a lot more (should have trusted her first instincts). But, uhm, no big surprise and than panic, that obviously somehow Cora and Hook made it to Storybrooke after all? Would have been at least my second thought, if not the first.

It didn’t bother me at all, that they freed Archie so soon. The story fulfilled its purpose. Letting Belle find him while looking for the shawl was plausible and a simple, quick way to get Archie out of there.

Oh, the White-Charming-Swan family. Why were they in this episode? Ah, okay, had to work through aftermath of losing Archie. And do some build up for next episode(s) maybe. The dwarfs are homesick and so is Prince Charming. Stay or go back home, that is a good question. Not to mention the world full of strangers unused to magic out there beyond the border of Storybrooke, how to deal with that. Build up for the final of this episode and likely for coming episodes.

Hook-Rumple storyline: It did make sense to do a first clash now, Hook is not the type to wait long and plan and pull strings out of hiding like Cora does. Expect it not to be the last one though. There were some interesting little moments of insight into Hook’s character (maybe more about that in character analyses later). But that moment on his ship with Rumple, Rumple telling Hook to sail until he falls off the edge of the world (nice one) – uhm, aaalllright, Belle was there, Rumple forgot his hundred of years of experience with people like Hook for the sake of his love, and decided to kinda trust the pirat to do what he was told. For the sake of the showdown at the end of the episode.

The potion to overcome identity-loss leaving Storybrooke: couldn’t be a simple thing, had to be more complicate. But did everybody get the snag? I wonder. The potion only works with the object one helds most dear (besides that Rumple wasn’t able to brew more than some milliliters). Smee’s cap was worthless for anybody but Smee, the potion soaked shawl can only protect Rumple. It’s just a guess, but looks like you always have to keep the object close to your body once you left. As dear as the chipped cup is to Rumple, there is something more important to him (as Bae is more important than Belle). And it’s more pleasant to carry a shawl around all day and night then a chipped cup. The potion thing has weaknesses, but I do thank in this case the writers, because the thought already bothered me, that they would break this curse keeping people still in Storybrooke too soon. To me it makes a lot more sense to last longer. They found a way to get Rumple out of town chasing after his son without breaking this curse for everybody.

All in all it had the feeling of a transitional episode, taking us from one bigger event to the next, upcoming one. Such episodes are tough to write, so it’s easy to fail.

And sorry for the length. Was on a roll.

[Myril]

As I understand it, the fairy tales particular, but all storybook stories like Peter Pan, Wizard of Oz, even Frankenstein, are kinda the “real” history of the lands the people have been coming from. The versions we know though mostly are embellished, cleaned up, changed through retelling them umpteen times. Yes, I know, gives one headaches considering that fairy tales are older than Storybrooke excist in our world (well, the fictional version of it), and some of their history happened only a few decades ago. I think that is nevertheless how we are meant to see them, not as stories happening now, but stories that have happened, giving us background and history of the Fairy Tale Lands and their people. So, consequentially Emma has no fairy tale story, is no known fairy tale character but an original one. The same goes for Henry. Their stories are happening now, in the present.

@EIreland wrote:

Regardless of whether they do the story or not, it seems weird that Swans keep being in the show purposefully (i.e. Emma’s last name, her necklace from Neal, the key Grannie gave her at the inn when she first checked in and just recently in the ocean in “The Cricket Game”).

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Swans appear all over mythology, fairy and folk tales. Zeus seduced Leda, Queen of Sparta as swan, fathering Helen of Troy. Swans have been connected with Apollo and the Muses. The Valkyrie are sometimes depicted as swan maidens or in company of swans (although they are maybe more often connected with ravens, as being spirits to choose the best warriors from the dead after a battle). There are number of tales about swan maidens and others about brothers turned into swans (saved by their sister).

Swan are often seen as symbol for true love, live long partnership (because they more or less mate for life). White swans especially are symbols for purity, beauty and grace. But they are although seen as symbol for transformation (thus the tale of the Ugly Duckling). White swans are light, while black swans sometimes present the dark (side). Mute swans are said to sing only one song ever, shortly before death (well, actually they are no good singers at all). They are seen as companions of souls to netherworld, messengers of death (something they have in common with ravens).

Symbol of true love, symbol of transformation – enough for me to use swan as family name for Emma. And enough to let swans and swan pictures pop up all over Storybrooke and in the Fairy Tale Lands.

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[Myril]

@medchen wrote:

Not confusing them, just bending the Snow White and Rose Red story a bit 😀 I know everyone was all “happy happy, we’re all friends” in this tale. But lets face it- happy happy ..is a bit boring.
These two sisters both befriended a bear that turned out to be a prince. Snow White married the Prince and Rose Red had to ‘settle’ for the brother, who wasn’t even a part of the fairytale till the end, where he was needed so that Rose Red wouldn’t be left out in the cold. This story wasn’t going to venture in to the land of sister rivalry, that was not what it was about. But I for one can easily see it’s possibilities of going there- but maybe I’m just being cynical 😉
Also these sisters had a relation with a little angry dwarf- this is where Rumple enters in to the story, he probably had something to do with why the sisters, Eva and Cora ended up at eachothers throats, so to speak.

Alright, but I would call that bending the tale a lot. There is not a hint of jealousy between the two in the fairy tale. As much as a story can be changed, I prefer to stick to the core of the characters, in this case the core of the sisters is being good, loving and caring persons. Doubt they would lose it that much even with someone like Rumple involved. Just can’t see Cora in any of them.

And there are enough fairy tales of jealous sisters, half-sisters, step-sisters. Let’s say, I find it nice, that Snow White and Rose Red for a change is not about jealous female relatives, so I am especially reluctant to let this fairy tale be changed into that direction. 😉

Of course, taking reality of European royal and noble houses in account, chances are high, that Cora and Eva are in some way related by birth or marriage. 😆

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[Myril]

“Go take yourself for a walk” is my favourite and one to remember (and love snarky Regina)

pretty much could copy your list, Nonnie

adding:

Emma: “Kid, we gotta work on your sense of awesome.”

David: “And I needed to help her rest.” (of course, what else)

Regina: “Sorry, I’m late” (again, oh Regina, has to work on her timing)

Emma: “I’m gonna go make some tacos” (some way to change the subject;will crack me up for while, dirty mind, I know, so better go and make some tacos now 😆 )

Oh, shouldn’t forget our animal stars of the episode:

Pongo: Wuff! Wuff! (yup, we all understood doggish for a moment)

Fish: splash splash splash (kidding, but imagine the screenscript) 😉

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[Myril]

What to some looks like just a recylced story, suspecting writers’ block and loss of ambition, looks to others like an interesting parallel, done on purpose. Regina framed Mary Margaret and now her own mother Cora frames her in a similiar way.

There are interesting differences:

While Emma in season one didn’t believe in fairy tales being true and magic being real, and was relying against evidence on her intuition, that Mary Margarete never would have harmed Kathryn, this time she lets evidence achieved through magic convince her against her own feelings.

There is different motivation. Regina more or less wanted to get rid off Snow, keep her finally and forever apart from Charming. Cora’s plan is to break her daughter to win her back.

Kathryn was just a pawn to get to Mary Margarete and David, Archie has some worth on his own. Kidnapping him while making it look like Regina killed him was a brilliant idea, evil. No one will look for him now, that’s giving the evil duo some time to get information out of Archie.

Despite differences nevertheless can say: Like mother, like daughter. Think you know that expression. I would call it one of the motifs of this season.

And then I find it very interesting to think of how particular Mary Margaret / Snow will react, when they will learn, that Regina was framed this time (not that she hasn’t reason enough to lock up Regina for ever, but that is not quite how she ticks). Mary Margaret knows how it feels to have seemingly all odds against you.

Find it as interesting how Emma will react, when she learn, that her feelings at first were right, that Regina was not lying to them in the interogation room, especially seeing how she stuck to Mary Margaret before. Don’t think she will shrug that off with the thought, Mary Margaret was her mother, so naturally she trusted her more.

Then there is Henry. How will he take all that?

And who knows, maybe even Regina will notice similarities and see things a little different because of it.

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[Myril]

@EvilQueen wrote:

I just realised the possible answer to your other question – how did she end up from being a ‘one night’ girl to not really looking at any man and not trusting them either?
I agree 100% with what you said about her picking random guys trying to desperately prove to herself she has some personal life too.

One night girl actually somehow implies to me to not really look at any man nor trust them. You pick up some guy for the night, that’s it. Barely look at him ( you notice his body at best), hopefully he is not a talker, have some fun, and be gone before breakfast. Not sure if that is all that Emma had since Neal, but think at least most of the time. If she ever tried to have a more lasting realtionship again, it was no good either (remember what she said to Mary Margaret, when they talked about David and getting involved with a married man, it’s not worth the heartacke – sounded like she knew something about that out of experience).

But Emma was in general distrustful, she had no friends at all, or doesn’t seem like there were any, not even a closer business partner who would have missed her. From her point of view she was let down by her parents, foster parents, probably the foster system, maybe teachers, and then Neal, and maybe she was bullied as kid. No wonder to me she had not much trust and relied all on herself. Something hard to overcome when you barely know anything else in your life.

But at the same time she was chasing all those bad guys who screwed their friends, families etc and she constantly saw in them what Neal did to her – over and over again. It must have been a heck of a pain! Because such was her job, she didn’t see much good in people and that’s how she must’ve completely lost trust in them – I don’t think it was just Neal that caused her to change this way.

It’s reinforcement. You make negative experience, you make them again, and then again. And then you see othes making similiar experiences. After a while you hardly ever think it could ever go differently.

@medchen wrote:

They could do an episode on that, but how would they tie it in, as a driving force, for the overall plot of Once?
I don’t see how right now, so I don’t think they will do it. But they might hint at her pre-Storybrook life some more.

Agree on that. Say even, we don’t need to know more details of her biography as flashback, we know the important events in her life.

However I do think we will get the story of baby Henry at some time, how she gave him up and how and why he ended up in Storybrook of all places.

It’s not that interesting, how Emma gave up Henry, we know she did, we have a good idea why. Interesting is how Henry came to Storybrooke and Regina, but that is Henry’s, Regina’s and Rumple’s story, not so much about Emma.

@Schmacky wrote:

And just a side-note, I wonder if she worked for a company or for herself. If she worked for a company – OK. If she worked for herself, I wonder where she got money to pay people’s bail. More than likely she worked for someone else and was contracted out.

Was wondering too. Something to ponder in sleepless nights. 😉

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[Myril]

@medchen wrote:

Cora and Snows mother sisters 😀 yes! love it. It ties it with the fairytale Snow white and Rose red, gives Cora a possibility of motiv to hate and want revenge on her sister- maybe she kills her.. She wanted what her sister had, the prince, the power, the good life.

You’re confusing one fairy tale with another (some people do). Snow White and Rose Red is the tale of two sisters, right, but two sister loving each other and sticking together. They have a happy ending together: Snow White marrying the prince the two sisters saved together, and Red Rose marries the brother of the prince.

The two sisters you might think of are stepsisters (or at best half-sisters – it’s not clear in the tale if they have the same father or not) It’s the tale of Mother Hulda (Frau Holle). Has a bit of Cinderella. The two girls are not named in the fairy tale, but in German they are in the end called Goldmarie und Pechmarie (in english translation the name Marie was more general understood and translated as girl, so it’s golden girl and pitchy girl). There are some other tales, Cinderella to name one, but not remembering details right now of more, telling stories of jealous stepsister or sisters.

All variations, sisters, half-sisters, stepsisters, not sister at all have interesting aspects and probably can be turned into interesting stories and work here. So far no facts from the show I can think of speak against Cora and Eva eventually being related, but neither does anything so far really suggest it.

That said. I’d prefer them to be not related. It might seem interesting to make them sisters or so, but it has too much of a soap opera for my taste, and it could become a sort of Dynasty of the Fairy Tale Lands (or Storybook Lands). Well, but guess some people would even like that. On the other hand could argue, the show more or less already is there, so let’s do it to the full.

@AntBee wrote:

On the other hand, it seems that Cora may have tried to think she could have both her child and her new life of wealth and status. So like in RumplesGirl’s theory which she posted in “The Miller’s Daughter’s” spoiler section, I think she got a hold of the Dagger, so that Rumpel would have to agree to whatever she wanted which was getting to keep Regina and getting to still be Princess/Queen. Rumpel agrees because he doesn’t have any other choice, but he already has a plan to get back at Cora by making it so Henry loses his kingdom to George, and Cora is left with nothing but Henry and Regina. As years go by, Cora becomes really bitter and angry with herself that she finally was a Princess/Queen, but if she hadn’t wanted to hold onto Regina instead of just handing her over to Rumpelstiltskin, she could still be Princess/Queen. I think that maybe why she told Regina that love was a weakness because she grew to see herself as being weak.

I’ve asked that already in the other thread, but maybe it’s better to discuss it here: Why should Cora ever have given back the dagger if she once had it? Cora doesn’t struck me as a person caring much about deals or code of honor, she does, what she thinks she has to do. So, unless she had no idea, why the dagger is so important for Rumple, why should she have given it up? I mean, come on, controlling the Dark One, what a power that offers, power to become rich and powerful and get everything for the daughter. Not saying the story by no means could go that way, but then have to come up with some good explanation, why Cora hasn’t the dagger anymore.

A thing I noticed when rewatching the episode, in which Regina learns that her mother has become who she is because of Rumple (episode 2×02): Henry sr. tells his daughter, that Cora never told him the name of that man (aka Rumple), and that Cora and that man met before Henry sr. met Cora. Something to bear in mind for story ideas and theory building.

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[Myril]

@medchen wrote:

@RumplesGirl wrote:

–Rumple has an odd habit of introducing himself. He tells people his name. Which is obviously totally outside the original fairy tale. So if his name isn’t what Cora finds to break the deal, then what? Could the dagger be making a reappearance? We know that if someone who is not the Dark One wields it, they control the Dark One. I really think Cora knows about the dagger and this might be one way that she found out about it. Instead of guessing his name, she found the dagger and somehow controlled/manipulated Rumple into relinquishing his hold on Regina and at the same time teach Cora magic. That’s the new deal: no Regina and teach me magic, and in return I’ll let you live and give back your dagger. Rumple agrees to this-he has no choice really–but once the deal is complete, he manages to find the loop hole: he leaves Regina alone for now, but takes the kingdom from Henry and Cora.

Yes Yes Yes!! I think you are right on this one. The dagger is Rumples secret. as opposed to his name being the secret in the old fairytale. Plus the name being written on the dagger and everything. Uh! I like this a lot 😀
I can hardly wait to see these two episodes. Gods! they are going to ROCK 😀

Hmmm. Doesn’t sound to me like the Cora we now know. Why should she have given up the power coming with controlling the Dark One?

Agree with you though, that the dagger is the secret, not so much the name per se. It takes the dagger and the name to control the Dark One (or so it sounded in the episode in which Rumple became the Dark One).

Interesting was though: When Regina asked, how her mother became like that, her father Henry tells her about that man, wo brought magic to Cora. He says, Cora never told him the name. Regina finds it in the book. (episode 2×02)

Another thing I noticed while rewatching episode 2×02 We are Both: Henry sr. says, that Cora knew that man (aka Rumple) before they met.

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[Myril]

@EvilQueen wrote:

“One true pairing”
I don’t understand it too well myself yet, but I guess it’s an way of indicating how much a fan is emotionally committed when shipping certain couples?

Well, where there is one true love there should be one true pairing 😛

Rumours have it, that the first one true pairing was Spock/Kirk (something for fandom historians, from times when we were not as creative with ship names as today, uhm, with names for excisting or wished for relationships of characters of a series or movie) 😉

It means the one and only pairing a fan is interested in, the one pairing that is meant to be. Can lead sometimes to ship wars (no, not things swimming in water fighting each others, but supporters of different pairings in the same fandom having heated and long lasting arguments) and flame wars (flames are angry, offensive, hostile comments or messages).

Seems to me the term is used by some less strict by now, some have more than one one true pairing in one fandom (doesn’t make sense to me but terms change with time).

Concerning writing names out: As long as we don’t have some “Hadschi Halef Omar Ben Hadschi Abul Abbas Ibn Hadschi Dawud al Gossarah” living in Storybrooke I think it’s not too much to ask.

(any German should know that name. It’s one of Karl May’s fictional characters. More about that character here )

:ugeek:

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[Myril]

@EvilQueen wrote:

Why isn’t MM at school, teaching anyway? Everyone is back to their ‘usual’ jobs and getting on with their lives, as suggested by Charming, kids go to school, yet MM seems not to bother with that?…

Mary Margaret and Emma are back from post-apocalyptic Entchanted Forest like for a day, maybe now two. I would expect no one to pick up their job after such an experience in no time. Besides, David / Charming isn’t working at the animal shelter either, is he? And then there are the dwarfs – doesn’t look like they are doing their usual jobs either, besides Sneezy that is.

Think that many people in Storybrooke expect Mary Margaret and David to do more than their usual jobs now. Someone has to be in charge, take lead.

➡ A request to everybody: I’m not free of using abbreviations in the rush of the moment, but can we please write names out full? Abbreviations are not friendly to people new to the show and / or the forums, Thank you. ➡

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