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But at no point does Baelfire take the dagger and order his father to stop or anything with the dagger.
Yes, this. If they actually wanted to retcon the dagger into the One Ring, then fine — but they’d need to do a lot more work to make it plausible. Along the same lines, if the dagger is such a corrupting influence (presumably once’s you’ve held it and ordered a Dark One around with it), then how come Gideon just hands it back, no questions asked? Wouldn’t the logical reaction be “ooh, I got me a Dark One, lets go take out the Black Fairy now”? And why would Rumple give it out to Bae in the first place if it has such a horrible effect (unless, of course, he doesn’t know)?
They do have material to work with, both in-universe and in terms of folkloric tropes if they wanted to suggest that this sort of power is both literally and figuratively corrupting. It certainly would explain why no one tried to order the Dark One out of commission, and locked the dagger away — which, of course, has a lot of precedents in all sorts of fairy tales. They could have done such an interesting speculation on why the proverbial genie always ends up imprisoned in some lamp somewhere: that eventually someone somewhere grows a brain and realizes that this kind of power is bad news for everyone.
But my point is that if we all have to collectively do this much work to make this whole thing make any sense at all, they’re doing it wrong.
[adrotate group="5"]To me, this was some seriously OOC for Bae.
We are literally debating whether it was more OOC for Bae or more OOC for the Dagger. This is what the show has come to.
To be fair, the people who have wielded the dagger — except for Belle — have most been real stinkers. And Belle always makes catastrophic decisions, dagger or no, so she makes for a poor litmus test. Unless I’m misremembering something?
I think the only thing that holds fairly tightly is that in-universe magic can “reset” your personality to ignore that you are “inherently evil” (or good, for that matter). This makes sense, it has to with the ideology of the show, which at least says that there is no such thing as “evil born” (whether it is actually consistent on this point is another issue). The questions this begs are:
– a. Why did no one ever think of putting Rumple under some sort of memory spell? So many problems would be solved — he’d have no clue he’s the DO, and next thing you know, he’s paying his taxes and volunteering on the school board.
-b. Shouldn’t the memory potion have “worn off” once Neal reached the world without magic?
I don’t understand how a memory potion affects darkness in one’s soul. Like not remembering you’ve done something bad completely takes away the impulse to do bad things?
Ha, remember Dark One Hook, though? Not a memory potion, but if a Dark One can prance around having litterally zero clue about his status, then anything is possible. I.e. there are precedents for this nonsense.
I think Rumple — especially “early DO Rumple” for lack of a better word, this is just a few years(?) after he became the Dark One — is within the realm of possibility. But not Bae. Especially not the specific instance of how he came to do this. He wasn’t threatened. No one was being threatened. This was in the context of Rumple suggesting they moved villages — are they seriously telling me that Bae couldn’t be bothered, when later he’d be willing to jump down a portal opened by a magic bean? This was such bad, retconny writing I can’t even. What they’re doing is twisting Bae to echo Gideon, but still Gideon is little more than a giant plot device, this is such a cruel disservice to Bae’s character.
Nope. Nopey nope nope nope.
Yeah, the hell was this?! I can literally think of five different ways in which they could have written something in that vein without utterly ruining Bae’s character. I think they did this maliciously and on purpose.
I feel so torn on this one.
Liked
Gideon and Rumple’s dynamic is great.
I like that this Robin is so different from the original Robin, and that it’s forcing Regina to reconsider the easy way out of simply separating herself from EQ. But they should’ve dealt with this when EQ was still around. At this point it just feels like they’re out of ideas and villains.
Ogres were amusing with their giant goblin armor — though now that I think about it, I thought they aren’t actually particularly intelligent? Definitely not crafty enough to forge Norse looking weapons — so who’s arming them?
I actually liked the Hook/Archie dialogue at the beginning. It was surprisingly self-aware on Hook’s part – the therapy sessions must be doing some good.
Mixed
On the one hand, my favorite Rumple has always been the devoted father Rumple — it’s the side of his character that is the most credible and relatable, and the one that RC portrays in the most heartfelt way. On the other hand, what fresh retcon is this? Bae would have never, in a million years, compelled his father to use dark magic. And this wasn’t even under a moment of duress. He wasn’t physically threatened, it wasn’t to make Rumple defend himself or anyone from Beowolf — it was literally because he didn’t want to go relocate to another village. If he had forced Rumple to defend himself against Beowulf and his useless magic sword, that’d be one thing — but this seems like it was written in such a way as to show that Bae was really just petty. It was completely, utterly out of character, and the memory potion is just a little too convenient a way out — his heart would have physically darkened. So the same level of retconning and bad writing that they did to ‘darken’ Rumple when the plot needed they are now applying to try to make him sympathetic. Ugh
Dislike
This would be the 2nd Ogre Wars. The first time around was when Bae was a baby.
What was going on with Beowulf’s proportions? Was he walking on stilts?
Well, if there ever was a good time to let Emma in on the whole “I might have inadvertently offed your grandaddy” problem, Hook spectacularly missed it.
But this is not a Greek tragedy, it’s a fantasy melodrama. So this episode, by putting the engagement ring and proposal into a single narrative frame, presents the consequences for Hook’s past actions catching up with him as first and foremost a potential impediment to his prospective marriage, which we all know will happen regardless. For me, that’s the main issue. Hook as a character is overdetermined by his ability to “get the girl” — everything else seems to fall by the wayside, including the girl’s other familial relations. This particular focus does Hook’s character no favors.
But we never got Hook saying how worried he is that Emma won’t marry him now bc of what he did to Robert. For all we know, the first thing that pops into his head is in fact how Charming will feel and how awful he himself feels for being the one who actually killed Robert, especially after helping him the whole episode figure out what happened to give David some closure. Nowhere did the show suggest all he cares about is getting the girl. He even lied to Emma for David. I don’t think it’s fair to say he is simply overdetermined to get the girl and doesn’t care about anything else. That was Hook in season 3 and even 4. But I think he has shown countless times that he cares for others. Just this season, he cared about what Henry thought about him. And he saved his life.
You’re right, we don’t know anything about Hook’s emotional state. What I was pointing out is narrative structure, not character feelings. To put it simply, I would have a lot less problems with this turn of events if the proverbial ring didn’t show up in this particular episode. By putting those two things together narratively (prospective engagement and past murder), the writers are framing the two events in relation to each other. And yes, one might say that it’s because it’s more dramatic this way — and that’s precisely what my (and I think some others’ here) critique is about.
Also, for the love of all that is holy, can someone please explain to me where Hook got the money to buy the rock? Does he have a job? Does anyone have a job? How does money circulate into SB? Or does Regina print it? How does produce? Seriously, what is the political economy of this place– because I don’t understand it one bit.
If you don’t feel a little bad for Hook, then you will never forgive him for the man he used to be. And if you feel that way, then you must believe people cannot change or at the very least, should never even try to become a better person bc no one should forgive them.
There is a difference between feeling bad for Hook, and even thinking that he should be forgiven, and forgiveness being recognizable mainly through him “getting the girl” (or not) — as the show sets it up. I actually like the twist in the abstract, and even how it was done — that Hook was so casual about this in the past (pure pragmatics) and presumably feels terrible in the present. Again, in the abstract — if OUAT weren’t OUAT but a Greek tragedy — I’d easily feel sympathetic towards Hook precisely fore the reasons you outline (or look at his past/karma catching up with him and screwing up any chance he has at happiness, what rotten luck — does he deserve this?) At least, I’d feel compelled to root for him.
But this is not a Greek tragedy, it’s a fantasy melodrama. So this episode, by putting the engagement ring and murder into a single narrative frame, presents the consequences for Hook’s past actions catching up with him as first and foremost a potential impediment to his prospective marriage, which we all know will happen regardless. For me, that’s the main issue. Hook as a character is overdetermined by his ability to “get the girl” — everything else seems to fall by the wayside, including the girl’s other familial relations. This particular focus does Hook’s character no favors.
Those are subtly different.
One of those things is not at all like the other one, @RG — unless you’re subtly ironic. 😉
I think one of the biggest problems with this development is that this type of plot twist should belong in an entirely different genre of storytelling. This is sort of classic Greek tragedy, almost like a meditation on fate. But it requires an actual tragic (or at least bad) ending, which we all know won’t happen.
In the absence of any real risk — because I’m pretty sure CS is a foregone conclusion — there will be no long term consequences, and therefore the whole thing feels like cheap pointless melodrama that will be unsatisfactorily resolved, and won’t lead to any significant character growth.
In the meantime, depending on how much they want to wring out of this situation, I am actually going to bet one cookie on a temporary break-up — undertaken by Hook because he “doesn’t deserve Emma.” The rest of the drama will be about Emma trying to assuage Hook’s guilty conscience induced manpain. Which has been their MO since the get go, and since the audience seems to love it, why mess with a good thing?
I generally enjoyed this episode, though like others, I’m not crazy about the Charming/Hook duo. But it was still surprisingly well done.
Liked:
The flashbacks were well done, and actually helped develop Charming’s character. If nothing else, I’m just relieved that we’re not running in pursuit of the latest animal, vegetal, or mineral magical artifact of the week, in whatever half-baked random realm. In comparison to that, Ye Olde EF is so vastly preferable.
I enjoyed the Regina/Robin subplot, and the fact that it’s Snow Regina confides in. These two have really come far.
It was nice to see Dark One Rumple in all his morally gray glory. Except for the “sometimes maybe we’ll all see our sons” line, which felt strangely “direct audience address” to me and stating the obvious. I know DO Rumple is extremely theatrical, but that was a bit odd. Extra points though for Rumple #doingtherumple.
I think I am happy that King George isn’t a desiccated corpse forgotten in one of the mine shafts… Maybe?
The Pleasure Island + Pinocchio stuff was aesthetically well done
Mixed/Disliked
I sympathize with Zelena’s freak out, sort of — I have no idea how to think about genetics and paternity relative to Wish!Robin either. Still, when she’s not the designated snarky one, I find her character to be insufferably strident.
So, I had expected Hook to be Robert’s killer, and I actually appreciated the way he was so casual about it. But it’s still super squeaky. I hope the show deals with it beyond simply this standing as an impediment to his proposal — I mean, doesn’t this involve other people? Like Henry? And David? And Snow?
