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@RumplesGirl wrote:
I wouldn’t mind if the went further into Arthurian legend, though I don’t think it can be this season since the focus is so heavily on NL and I don’t want them to take too many toys out of the box.
Agreed, I doubt they’d have room for it in the story right now.
I’ve recently been thinking though about what will happen to MAP once Nealfire leaves FTL, (which we assume he will). Would they stay there, or go back to SB if there was a way, (safe to say we can rule out them going to NL because of actor availability)? For them to want to stay in FTL, I think they’d have to discover more people still living there, because if it’s just the three of them left in the whole world, that’s not much fun.
But say there’s another Safe Haven full of people hiding out somewhere, and this time actual Lancelot is in charge there. Then I could see MAP wanting to stay there and help them rebuild the place. They could wrap that up early in S3, with Nealfire saying goodbye and leaving MAP with Lancelot and whoever else is there. Then one day in a future season we could see the SBers finally go back to FTL, meet up with Lancelot again, and then we could explore his character more, by delving into Arthurian legend flashbacks.
[adrotate group="5"]@Keb wrote:
I tried to work out which person had killed the most at one point. Cora and Regina both have “A whole village” on screen at this point, though, which is really hard to count; I put down 30 though I think that might be low in both cases.
There are at least 50 bodies in the scene where Snow and Regina come across the dead villagers. Might be a couple more than that, it’s hard to tell with everyone lying all over each other, but I definitely counted at least 50.
Honestly, in the balance of things, I find Regina to be more evil because her motivations feel more petty to me and she isn’t being controlled by an evil curse.
I do admit that I find it easier to justify Rumple’s misdeeds because “the Dark One made him do it.” One could argue that it was his choice to become the Dark One, just like it was Regina’s choice to turn to magic, and that’s a fair enough point. But I see Regina’s magic addiction and Rumple’s Dark One curse as being different, and she has more control over her actions than he does. The Dark One curse is a parasite that crawled into his blood and biologically altered him and overtook his soul, and his only way to escape it is to die. Regina on the other hand, has had the free will to make good choices, but has consistently made bad ones instead.
Regina also tends to assume that everyone -should- love her while Gold is convinced nobody should love him, which means that Regina operates from the assumption that what she wants is right while Gold operates from the perspective that convincing people they’re getting what they want will get him what he wants. (The logic being that since Regina believes everyone should want her happy, it doesn’t matter if they are as long as she is, while Gold believes he can get his way by figuring out what other people think will make them happy as he doesn’t expect them to care if he’s happy or not, save for his ability to destroy them.)
This is an excellent summation of their differing attitudes!
@WickedRegal wrote:
The reason I say this, is because if the Blue Fairy had minded her own business, and not help send Bae to another world, then Rumple wouldn’t have manipulated countless lives (Yes, he manipulated, killed, destroyed for over three centuries, way more than Regina, count that in the record).
Concerning Blue, I keep holding out hope that there’ll be a nefarious twist to her story. My current line of thinking is that she was working as an agent for PP.
Concerning Rumple, we haven’t seen what he did for all of those 300 years, so to automatically say that because he’s been around longer, he automatically has a much higher death count is just an assumption. Obviously, he did enough that he got a reputation, but his title and appearance also helped with the reputation.
What we do know is that he got his powers in the first place to stop a war and save countless people, and he did it. We know that he was willing to help whole communities be protected from the destruction of the Ogres, as long as they could pay the price, because that’s how he met Belle. Rumple may kill individuals as he sees fit, but when it comes to mass killing, from what we’ve seen, he used his power to prevent that sort of thing from happening. Regina on the other hand, used her power to have whole villages slain in cold blood because she was having a bad day.
We have no idea how Cora’s life could have been, Rumple more than likely manipulated it for her family to be poor, so he could seek her, hence when he told Regina: “There’s a lot of history between me and your family, past and future.” Cora could have been filthy rich had Rumple not meddled into her family’s business, and there’s proof he’s stolen a family’s wealth before, wanting to bankrupt King George. Cora could have been rich, still married Henry, probably truly fell in love with him, and loved Regina, who could have married Daniel, but that was not the case, due to Rumple’s meddling.
Again, this is an assumption. Sure, maybe it’ll turn out that he did play a role in the state of Cora’s family and poor status, but if so, we haven’t been shown evidence of it yet, and the topic of this thread is based on things we have actually seen each of them do.
Now onto my favorite character Regina, yes she’s made mistakes, but who hasn’t.
You won’t find a single Dearie anywhere who doesn’t think that Rumple has made all kinds of mistakes. Neither he or Regina are saints.
Now, true indeed Snow did tell the secret, but it was on “good” intentions, still questioning on that, so even though Cora pulled the trigger in killing Daniel, Snow loaded the gun by telling her the secret. It’s just like when you’re dating the bad boy, and your baby sister squeals on you, getting you grounded, same scenario. Snow holds 50% of the blame, and Cora holds the other 50%.
I’d personally say more like 99% Cora’s fault and 1% Snow’s unintentional fault.
Regina took a downward spiral, being surrounded by the people who hurt and betrayed her, no one to turn to, except, Rumpel,
She had her father. He may not have been assertive enough, but I’m sure that throughout her entire life, Regina knew he was there, wanting her to make the right choices. Moments before his death, he was still trying to convince her that it was possible. He was always there beside her, it was her choice to not listen to him.
who took those moments of misery, and pain, to install darkness and hate, and especially when RUMPLE, whale, and Hatter tricked Regina with the Daniel incident, when he could have brought Daniel back, and Regina could have been finally happy,
Rumple can’t bring back the dead. I don’t dispute the fact that he was diabolical in his manipulations of her at that time in her life, and yes, he totally used her misery, but he couldn’t have brought Daniel back for her, even if he’d wanted to. Dead is dead.
Not to mention, she did not kill David when she could have, because I believe she saw a similar situation, Snow falling for shepherd turned prince, like she fell for stable boy Daniel. She didn’t even want to kill Snow, like she could have on numerous occasions, because ever since 2×20 Evil Queen, she couldn’t do it, so she’d rather make her suffer than kill her, because somewhere Regina still loves Snow, and Snow has proven she still loves Regina.
I do agree that Regina still has a remnant of the kind hearted person she used to be. It’s just that I think it’s buried way down deep, so that it’s been barely a faint glimmer ever since she went dark. At times we’ve seen it try to break through, but it always gets shoved back down again.
Now as for the curse, Rumple created it, he needed to make a monster out of Regina, so she can cast it, by granting Snow and David that immune curse, which they will never receive again, because he doesn’t need their help anymore.
Rumple undoubtedly manipulated that situation to get Regina to cast the Curse, but we don’t know for sure where the Curse came from yet, or if he actually created it himself.
Now through the curse, Regina made sure everyone was satisfied, with good jobs, earnest living, a fresh take on life, because everybody wasn’t pampered princess like Snow, she took away both good and bad memories, some overlapped the other, and granted new lives, fresh starts, like Ruby said in 2×11, despite why Regina did it, she actually blessed them with a chance to start fresh in a new world, with technology and indoor plumbing, even Granny said cooking here is better, so Regina actually instead of cursing them, she blessed them.
While I wouldn’t go so far personally as to use the word “blessed” (because I think it’s pretty horrible that none of them really knew their true selves, so I just can’t classify their existence as being a “blessing”), for sure, they weren’t all completely destitute, and yes, people like Red could certainly see some perks to the situation. What I take away from that is actually feeling sad for Regina, because all of that evil she did, with the motivation to destroy everyone’s lives…she didn’t really get that in the end at all, so were all the evil deeds and suffering really worth it?
She separated Owen because again, she was desperate for love, and saw that Owen wanted to stay, and decided to remove the problem, but she saw her mistake, and had to kill Kurt who witnessed everything.
She didn’t have to kill him, she could have locked him up in the hospital basement, though granted, that may have still been a fate as bad as death.
Now, she was a true mother to Henry, and will always be his FIRST mother, and true she teamed up with Cora, but what choice did she really have, because Cora would have went through with her plans anyway. But she teamed up with Cora, after the fact that the Charmings made her a pariah in her own town, and they realized their mistake a moment too late, and Snow added flames to the fire when she told her that “Emma doesn’t have to run nothing by you.” I would have teamed up with Cora after that, and lets not forget she had to kill Daniel herself, and save Emma and Snow from the well.
I didn’t always agree with the way people treated Regina during S2. As a general rule, I can see the Charmings’ point of view when it comes to her, but Snow’s line about not having to run anything by Regina when major decisions about Henry were involved was pushing it, even for me. I may not think Regina is a particularly good mother, I may not think she actually has any legal claim to parental rights because the whole “adoption” was dodgy, but she has been in the role of Henry’s mother for the majority of his life, and the other characters should be mindful of that.
Let’s not forget the fact Snow is 100% responsible for killing Cora!
I lay at least 50% of the blame for Cora’s death at Rumple’s feet. If he hadn’t have shown Snow the candle, Cora wouldn’t have died, (at least not in the way she did).
Regina would have enacted the self destruct, only after she had nothing else in Storybrooke, but her son, but no, she was willing to sacrifice her life for her son, and to make up for the mistakes she’s made. In that moment, she wasn’t the Evil Queen, she was just The Queen, who was determined not to let her family perish.
Her line about wanting to die as Regina was heartbreaking, and that whole scenario was a moment of clarity she desperately needed.
So in conclusion of this very long note, I say if you’re going to tell either character’s tragic tale, please give them some honor, and get it correct. But as far as who’s the more evil, I really don’t feel like getting in the midst of war with all of you Dearies, but as dedicated Evil Regals, we must defend our Queen.
Nothing wrong with some healthy, respectful debate, and I’d expect EvilRegals to present their point of view on this topic.
Wonder if that’s something they were gonna delve into when they originally had bigger plans for Red in S2? If the Merlin guess is right, and if they’d also originally planned on having Snow and Emma in FTL longer, (which I think they’ve mentioned in an interview somewhere), maybe they had plans to bring back Lancelot as well? Until their focus shifted and they changed things up.
Hopefully they can still do an ep about the origin of Red’s hood at some point.
Both of them are ruthless when they want something. I dunno that you can really list each of their crimes and directly compare them to get a winner (or should that be loser). Each of them have their own justifications and motivations for the evil they do.
Regina is more trigger happy and needs to be held accountable for that, but would she have committed all of those deeds if not for Rumple manipulating her into turning dark in the first place? It’s a complicated web of evil.
I will say this though…Regina’s list of crimes includes a significant amount of child harming/killing, (which is why I just can’t accept that she’s suitable mother material), but Rumple used his powers to save a significant amount of children from dying in a war.
@Clessidor wrote:
Well I think we will see a new conflict inside SB. The Home Office might be a threat from the outside and even when Belle will cloak SB they can have a man in the inside.
I think it’s likely that THO will have a way to break through the cloaking spell and get into town, (if they can kill magical creatures, they can negate the powers of a cloaking spell). If there’s a “man inside” SB, my money is on it being Blue, but she’s not working with THO exactly, she’s just in league with PP somehow, so will help THO should they ask.
@NONNIE wrote:
Several scenes in the library showed they had a lot of books dealing with magic.. I actually did not see any non MAGIC books but I am sure they were there….
In addition to the nautical book that orza mentioned, the closeup on the books when Regina and Cora were looking for the right one showed non-magical titles:
http://screencapped.net/tv/onceuponatime/displayimage.php?album=1429&pid=1625120#top_display_media@AngieBelle wrote:
I have the greatest hubby too…I had been saying I was probably going to do this, but I was hesitant to bite the bullet cause it isn’t cheap, and I guess I felt I needed permission. When I told him I went ahead and ordered the tickets, he said, “Finally!” I am such a lucky girl to have a guy who encourages me to indulge in my passions!
Hooray for enabling – er, supportive hubbies! 😉 I know a girl in another fandom whose hubby recently conspired with a friend behind her back to get her a ticket on a celeb cruise. She hadn’t wanted to spend the money because they’d just bought a house, but he wanted her to go and party with her friends and boybanders. God love him!
@KFChimera wrote:
I like that Phee. They said there were no beans left, but they did show us a very healthy and large looking bean plant in Regina’s office. Kind of stands to reason Anton could graft another plant but it would just take time, so that Belle cannot immediately go after the others. It would have to be after several episodes. I think it took half the season last time, so maybe she will have working beans by the mid-winter break. I kind of think also that if they totally get rid of the beans, they don’t have an excuse to pop Anton into the story again. We should totally see Tiny again. Perhaps he and Grumpy will agree to go with Belle to look for the others.
Given that they managed to grow a field full of beans from one single, teeny tiny cutting that Anton had, it would be sort of ridiculous IMO if they don’t use Regina’s full, healthy plant to regrow more. Toss some fertiliser on that thing and you’ll have beans galore again. And yes, it would give them a reason to keep Anton around, and given that K&H adore Jorge, I imagine they’d want to keep him around if possible.
@AngieBelle wrote:
Hmmm…that could work- provided Henry knows where he has been taken!
All it would take is GOAT mentioning PP, either directly to Henry, or to each other and Henry overhears, and the kid would figure out where he is. Imagine Nealfire’s face when he hears that his son has been taken to PP in NL.
Do you think Belle would just automatically go to find Rumple with no lead on where he may have gone though? I still think she may take a leadership position in the town with everyone else gone.
I could see her having a go if she’s able to make an educated guess at where he could be, if she has the means to get there and back with the beans.
Maybe she’d even be operating under false information, provided by Blue, (crackpot theory time…). If Belle does assume a leadership role in SB, (which I hope she does), Blue may not like that. Possibly simply because as the most powerful being in town now, she believes she should be in charge. Possibly also because, if she is an agent for PP, and has been all this time, part of her cut in that deal was that one day she’d have supreme control over all of these people when the other major players in town left, (this is currently how I’m justifying her having been nowhere to be found in the finale, because she was laying low, waiting for things to play out and Charmingstiltskins&Co to leave), and now Belle is getting in her way. So Blue could give Belle a tip about Rumple being in FTL, and will encourage her to leave town.
@orza wrote:
Belle also has free run of the shop and access to all the magical things in it. I bet Belle tries out more magic after casting the cloaking spell.
That’s what the theories of her finding and using the magic mirror (from the Beauty and the Beast story) stemmed from. I can certainly see her poking around the shop, (Lord knows I would if I had free reign in that place with all its treasures), but she may not know how to distinguish magical objects or use them. In which case, see my previous paragraph, because who could she go to for advice on magical things and how to use them? If that happens, then Blue has an in to tell Belle anything she wants to influence her one way or the other.
@PriceofMagic wrote:
I also think part of the reason this season isn’t as liked as the first is that the introduced MAP separately from the main characters and everyone cared more about Storybrooke and what was happening there than what was happening with MAP. MAP hung around for half a season before completely disappearing for the rest of the season save one scene in the finale. MAP could have been taken out and replaced with other characters for the present day FTL sections that would have served the purpose of getting Snow and Emma back to Storybrooke.
If they’re interchangeable with any other present day FTL characters, then what was the problem with them being who they are?
I don’t disagree that their portion of the story felt a bit disjointed, particularly when we saw Mulan and Aurora run off and then we didn’t see them together again in present day until that 30 second clip in the finale where suddenly Phillip was back with them. But I think it’s all gonna connect up nicely in the first part of S3, (they’ll have to deal with these characters early on, before the actresses have commitments to shoot other shows).
They couldn’t have dumped Nealfire in FTL at season’s end without having previously established the state of the place, so I can see the reasons that they drew out Snow and Emma’s time there. We had to know that it was a place that was almost impossible to get out of in present day, otherwise there isn’t as much concern for Nealfire being stuck there.
And they needed to establish some characters for Nealfire to run into while he’s there, so they made them specific characters that the audience had knowledge of prior to OUAT. And in the middle of the season, they threw in that Belle has a connection to MAP. So now Rumple’s son is stuck in FTL with people who know his father’s girlfriend, as well as knowing Emma, which is far more interesting than just having him stuck in a desolate land with a few randoms wandering here and there.
Did it feel weird to see Phillip up and about in that brief clip and not have any idea what happened with that chunk of the story where they saved him? Yeah, definitely. Would it have been more satisfying to have had MAP wrapped up properly and concisely within the one season? Yeah, probably. But knowing that K&H had this situation in mind to set up the transition between seasons, I can see why they dealt with MAP the way they did.
I like that, AngieBelle.
Only question is how on Earth is Nealfire gonna get out of FTL, because given how much drama Emma and Snow had to go through to find a way, it’d be a bit ridiculous if another portal option just magically pops up.
That’s why I like the theory of them using the plant from Regina’s office to re-grow beans and then Belle uses them to get to Nealfire. I’d be surprised if they didn’t take the opportunity to have Belle reunited with Mulan and Phillip. Why bother to establish that they’d all met before if it wasn’t gonna pay off now?
If Belle has beans, and doesn’t know where Rumple went, she’d likely start by looking in FTL. So she could get there, find MAP and Nealfire, learn that Henry was kidnapped to NL meaning that that’s where the JR went, then she and Nealfire head off there, using another bean, (I’m assuming Belle takes several of them with her, not knowing how many worlds she may need to hop through in order to find Rumple).
