Check out our full discussion of the episode “Devil’s Due” and hear us talk more about tying in past and present episodes, Emma’s heart, Rumplestiltskin as a father, the RumBelle baby, and the woman that made Rumplestiltskin who he is! Is Milah gone forever? Did Emma forget that her heart couldn’t be ripped out? What will Rumplestiltskin do with his new deal with Hades?
We’ve got great conversation lined up today with our co-hosts back together for our full discussion of the episode Devil’s Due.
Enchanted Forest (Past)
As they’re gathering firewood we get to see young Baelfire. The last time we saw young Baelfire from around that age was from the episode 2×04 “The Crocodile.” He looks about that same age, probably a little bit younger, and it seems that these events happen very close to the events that happened in “The Crocodile.” We get to see Milah as well after some time, but did she redeem herself enough in this episode? Her conversation with Rumplestiltskin and some of the stuff she said to him, being very self-aware of what she had done all those years ago as a mother. We also liked that human moment between her and Rumple after discovering that young Baelfire had been bitten by the snake. It felt very human; parents can be fighting and suddenly their child’s in danger and all of that goes away.
Back in our Devil’s Due Initial Reactions, we wondered if it was written by Jane Espenson, and after watching the episode again, it was indeed an “Espensode” —an episode written by Jane Espenson. When they decide to visit Fendrake the Healer, who was played by Aaron Douglas who was Chief Galen Tyrol in Battlestar Galactica from 2004–2009, a lot of the fans trying to pinpoint what culture he was supposed to be representing. His face tattoos looked more like what you would in Scottish Highlands, but he’s also wearing very traditional Shamanism necklaces.
It was ironic how Rumplestiltskin was even scared of the dagger when Milah presented it to him, but why didn’t Milah try to kill Fendrake instead? Why did she choose him instead of just doing it herself? Why did they have to sell their one gold coin for a dagger instead of just using whatever knives they already have? It was interesting when Milah and Rumple kissed because it was as if she was trying to convince him. However, it also looked like some sort of a manipulative bribe to get him to do what she wants.
When Hook and Milah first met, Milah used the excuse of having “responsibilities”, and looking back at the episode “The Crocodile”, it was also the same thing Rumple reminded her about when he went to the tavern to retrieve Milah. It was also interesting to see how the Hook-Milah thing started, at least. Not just that Milah liked spending her days in the tavern, but it looks like Milah uses the excuse of going to the tavern to see Hook. How soon does this happen before the episode “The Crocodile” though? Keb, who manages our Timeline, shared that this might have happened six months from “The Crocodile” episode.
It seemed odd that Fendrake was so ready for death; he seems to be known as “The Healer”; talks about magic; said that he could kill Rumple with a single spell, but we never see him actually used magic. Plus, when Rumple came back to him later on in the episode after Rumplestiltskin became the Dark One, which possibly was about 100 years later and the time when he was “falling in love” with Cora, Fendrake did seem to have a potion that can slow his aging process.
One of the things we liked most about this episode is that it took Rumple’s story and it re-centered it back on the idea of him being a father who will literally do anything for his child. In the past, often times the show lately tends to forget about Baelfire and it kind of makes Rumple’s motivation power or greed or his lust for magic. While that’s certainly an aspect of his character, his strongest aspect is also that he’s always been a father who will destroy the entire world if he has to, to get to his son. And this idea of sacrificing his second born child to save his first did feel pretty natural. It’s a horrible, no good deal, but it fit Rumple’s motivations pretty well from what we’ve seen. Also, it seemed that Fendrake know how to recognize a desperate soul.
age slowing spells require a 2nd born child
We’ve seen children being requirement of spells or potions before, could that also be the case here? Was the baby a means to stay young?
Does this put everything that came in before or later for Rumplestiltskin? It felt a lot like not only the Cora deal that was made between her and Rumple, but also just the original Rumpletstiltskin story.
“The amount of spells that require baby parts would suprise you” Regina Mills
It was brave, in a way, for Rumplestiltskin to not go through with the murder, if that was really in his head. Which is not to say that murdering someone would have been brave or courageous, but he does try and spin what was still looked like cowardice. But what is the other solution for Rumple, though? If Rumple and his typical father searching for his lost child, what would be the line that him as a father could do? What wouldn’t a parent do to save his own child? What else is Rumple supposed to do if he hadn’t agreed to the deal? Besides, Fendrake doesn’t really seem like the greedy type, but someone who really wanted to help that asks for a really high price. Why does he need Rumple’s second born child or any child, though?
For a long time, we’ve always seen Milah as evil or selfish for leaving Rumplestiltskin and abandoning Baelfire to live on the high-seas and be in an exclusive relationship with Hook, but this episode showed her side of the story as to why she was so unhappy and why she chose to initially seek out Hook and this is one of the reasons why I love Once is because they dispel what we think is good and evil in these fairy-tales and make the characters well-rounded and more like us, and though I still don’t agree with what she has done, to see that initial push she got to go with Killian was because Rumple took away her right to have more children and be a mother was brilliant and I’m falling in love with Once all over again.
— DeAndre Williams
We liked the different perspective that we got between Rumple and Milah. On the other hand, this also might seem a step too far because it vilifies peasant Rumple by making him someone who took away Milah’s agency and semi-retcons the past episodes in which Milah is simply over come by misery and leaves because, like she says, she’s selfish.
Why didn’t Milah and Rumple just move away and have a child somewhere else? Back in the episode “The Crocodile”, Milah asked her husband why won’t they just move so that he would not be known as the town coward, and Rumple didn’t actually move until Milah was gone and he and Baelfire were fleeing from the soldiers in the episode “Desperate Souls” who recruiting children to join the battle in the Ogres war, but still the soldiers found them.
Jumping forward to about 100 years, this incident seems to be happening right between a couple of scenes from the episode 2×16 “The Miller’s Daughter“. We went back and watched some scenes from the episode and this fits in from where Rumple pops up and Cora is trying on her wedding gown, which was when Rumple changed the deal and asked Cora to owe him not just any first born baby, but his very own first born. Then, forwarding back to the episode, Rumple must have realized that he still owed Fendrake the Healer his second born child, returns to kill the healer, goes back to meet Cora. However, Cora then decided to pull out her own heart and telling Rumple that she can’t run away with him. Is it possible that Cora and Rumple’s potentially baby making liaison didn’t actually happen?
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Underworld (Present Day)
Moving on to present day Underbrooke, we have the River of Lost Souls, which can make one into a mindless, tormented husk. There really is no River of Lost Souls in Greek Mythology, however, this could be one of the two: Styx or Lethe
Styx: Goddess as well as River in Greek Myth. Usually shown, past the time of the greeks, has having souls swimming in it.
Lethe: Makes people forget who they are, won’t remember past lives. Used in Dante, other Dante allusions in this episode. Lethe means unmindfulness or oblivion in Greek.
With this in mind, is it possible for someone to come out of that? Is Milah gone forever? Or can she still come out of the River of Lost Souls? Can Emma save her?
No, it’s not Styx. Styx is the blue river, according to the arch
We see two arches with names of two of the rivers.
In the episode.
I screen capped it over in the forum
We took a closer look at Hades’s objects that we can see and it looks like he doesn’t only have a big grandfather clock, he also had some banners with what seemed like an emblem of Cerberus and another with the classic devil’s pitchfork.
Meanwhile, Rumple is back owning his shop after Peter Pan handed it over to him. Where did he go? Will he come back? So far, he has done what seemed like a gesture of good deeds—handing the Ale of Seonaidh and giving back the shop to Rumple.
Was Rumple thinking of asking the crystal ball to show him his child or his “son” specifically? Could Hades see everything in the Underbrooke? Did Hades know for sure that Belle is indeed pregnant? And if the baby is born and is sort of owed to Hades now, will it spend half its life in in the Underworld, and half in Storybrooke?
This is probably an “out-there” theory, but here it goes. I wonder if Pan’s pipes can be used to rescue the lost souls from what I’m assuming is the River Lethe. Pan used it on his lost boys, so might it work on lost souls?
Why did Pan hand over his pipes to Rumple? Can they use to call lost souls down in the Underworld? Could Pan be the hero that Underbrooke needs?
Back at Snow White’s place, were they really cleaning up or simply looking for possible weapons? How does Rumple even know about extending an aura? Did he do something similar the last time he was there?
In the Main Street as Rumple finds Milah, it’s crazy that Underbrooke appears to have a school where kids can continue to be educated. It’s sort of like after-school classes, except it’s after-death. If these are all villagers who have died from the Enchanted Forest, when they woke up in the Underworld, how did they feel about seeing the Underworld so modern? Back in season 1, Blue Fairy said something about the Dark One powers not belonging in their world. If Hades is a god, would it be possible that it came from him?
Down at the land without hope when Emma, Rumple and Milah rescues Hook, a reversed pentagram can be seen as Hook was seen suspended upside down, which is usually associated with evil. However, not all pentagrams are evil. That’s just good old fashioned superstition, thanks to Neoplatonic philosophy during Renaissance, picked up by the Occultists and Hollywood. Also, right outside the river of lost souls, the entrance read: “Abandon all hope ye who enter here”, which means the following:
THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe:
Through me you pass into eternal pain:
Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved:
To rear me was the task of Power divine,
Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things
Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here
So, does Hades want them to stay or go out of the Underworld? He engineered the Underworld carefully and sees hope as a contraband, after all. Can he really send people back with just a wave of his hand?
Back up top when Emma and Milah first met, it kind of seemed that Milah knew about Emma, or else what was that disbelief in her voice upon seeing her for the first time? Had Emma known about Milah?
Why is magic tricky down in the Underworld? Back in season, when Rumple first brought magic to Storybrooke, he also said that magic is a bit unpredictable there, is Hades blocking it? Emma used magic and doesn’t seem to be having a hard time using it. Was it just Regina having a hard time using magic in the Underworld. Was it because she wasn’t born with magic, but had just learned magic, whereas Emma is the product of true love and a former Dark One? Does Cruella have magic? Cora did have magic and she was also not born with it.
How did Cruella break into Cora’s office? Are dead people the only one who can pass through the barrier spell in the door?
During the initial reaction, we expressed some confusion about the baby stuff inside Emma’s house and after re-watching this episode as well as the Pilot episode, we found out that it was Emma’s baby stuff indeed. Why are Emma’s stuff in there, though? Does Hades want Emma to die as a baby because she was an embodiment of all hope? How long were her stuff been in the Underworld? Did it get poofed out of the Enchanted Forest and into her house down in the Underworld? Does it have its own unfinished business?
We loved that we got referenced of Bambi’s iconic dead mother, however barbaric it seemed. It was also nice to have learned about what the graves mean, and that having a tombstone in the Underworld means they’re only passing through. Is Cora really gone if Cruella had been promoted as Mayor?
Going back under the Underworld, Emma, Rumple and Milah in the boat, which was supposedly everyone’s way out. What was Rumple thinking about Emma sharing with Milah about seeing Neal on her way to the Underworld? Why didn’t she share it with him? Even with all of the drama that they have been through, it would’ve still be nice if she had told him about seeing Neal and letting him know that he is in a better place. Besides, they’re still family.
It was nice to see the little reunion between Hook and Emma as he was being let off the hook. It was also interesting how this parallels the event that took place in 3×06 “Ariel” when Emma has to cross a bridge to get her trapped lover (Neal vs Hook). Did Hades let Hook be saved willingly? His rescue seemed a little too easy. It would also have been nice if Milah and Hook have a little reunion of their own.
It was a great moment between Milah and Rumplestiltskin before he threw her over the River of Lost Souls. It wasn’t easy, but it was a beautiful moment between Milah and Rumplestiltskin, especially when Rumple asked Milah to say Hi for him to his son.
Why did Hades see Rumple as a rival? Was it because he has the combined power of all the Dark Ones? Are there limits to divine power? Rumple has all the powers of all the Dark Ones, but Hades is still considered as a God. Can Rumple defeat Hades in some way and become the Lord of the Underworld himself?
When Rumple destroys the boat, he said that he is a man who takes what he needs, clearly meaning that he’s back to his nasty habits. On the other hand, this also re-centers his story on his true archetype, the Father. It’s a human cosmic figure, one who will murder and take and consume all around him to protect his child.
After 5A’s finale there was much lamenting on the Rumbelle ship that Rumple would never change …or learn. I hope I’m in time for this podcast to offer a ray of hope?
It would be easy to miss (given the excellent summing up written for him) that when Light Rumple stumbles from his bonds in “Dreamcatcher,” Dark Emma lacks even the slightest impulse to break his fall.
Likewise, Mr. Gold shows no pity in “Swan Song” toward Emma when she is drawn to his shop like an addict called to his magical drug-stash. There is no empathy, not a hint of remorse, even as he admits to his secret triumph at Hook’s expense.
But you can’t miss how in “Devil’s Due” it is not a cold calculation, but desperation, that casts Milah into the River of Lost Souls. Rumple may be the man Milah made of him, but he is also the “Desperate Soul” his father created. Baelfire and Belle could silence the inner voices and impulses of Rumple’s Dark One but they could only make worse his fear of being abandoned, his fear of losing those he loves.
The unforeseen consequences of making yet another disastrous deal he didn’t fully understand has indeed replaced Rumple’s usual Dark confidence with very obvious fear and regret. But it remains to be seen whether he can learn from this mistake when he never has before. My theory is that his father, Pan’s, unfinished business is Rumple. If and when they both realize what might be both their salvations, it would be quite a learning experience for both of them! And fun for us!
— Steff AKA MysticKid
While this is happening, Regina finding Daniel’s grave was a nice touch, and fitting that Snow and Regina found it together. It was evident that there was a lot of history in this moment and it’s all pretty impactful. It’s very right that Snow is there. This moment is so weighty because it really brings another story of S1 home for several important characters.
Was the horse that Regina healed her actual childhood steed? It looks like the same as Regina’s horse from 1×18 “The Stable Boy“; it looks close enough that we’re probably supposed to think it’s the same horse. But why is the horse there? Was it because Regina ripped its heart out to unsuccessfully enact the Dark Curse? Does it have an unfinished business? Was it Daniel’s gift to Regina to help her get her magic back?
Back when they regroup at Emma’s house, the plan to split Emma’s heart is a bit confusing. Back in the episode, the “Queen of Hearts,” Emma knew that Cora wasn’t able to rip her heart out. Why does she even think it’s going to work? Snow White and Emma should both know that they can’t remove Emma’s heart.
I am not sure how many Dungeons and Dragons/Pathfinder players there are but I was working on the assumption that Emma’s heart protections functioned somewhat like the spell resistance mechanic in that game. Spell resistance in the game works like this, you always have a level of protection against magic being used against you but you can choose to lower your protection to temporarily allow for helpful magic to be used on you. The disadvantage is that that the protection is very much either on or off so removing the barrier even for a moment leaves you vulnerable to dangerous magics. I was thinking that the plot could have gone with Emma’s lower’s her protections only for Hades or someone to swoop in and attack while the opening existed.
Emma seemed convinced back at the end of season 5A that splitting her heart could work. Then again, Cora couldn’t pull out Emma’s heart and in this episode, Regina can’t even reach in. Does Hades know of their plan?
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I am an attorney, and I just wanted to leave you a quick note about contracts and their enforceability after the death of a party. Now obviously, in the show we are dealing with contracts, such as an unborn child being sold, which have no place for a legitimate discussion on enforceability. So once we can get past the absolute unconscionable reason why the contract is being entered into, for the purposes of this discussion on Underworld contract law, the logic behind Hades’ argument that he now owns the debt is logically and legally sound.
Generally speaking, the death of a party does not void a contract unless the death makes it impossible for the contract to be performed. Just because Rumple killed the Healer does not mean that Rumple could no longer perform on the deal. Had the roles been reversed and Rumple been killed, the contract would be void because the contract would have been impossible to perform. The Healer’s death changes to whom the debt is owed, but it does not take away the debt. Usually, a debt owed to a party who has died can be claimed by the heirs, or the estate of the deceased. In this case, the debt was purchased by a third party, Hades. Debts are bought, sold, and transferred all the time. If you have a mortgage with a bank, it has probably been sold off to another bank at least once, if not several times, without your consent. Hades is a collector, a collector of souls. I find it clever that he is also now a debt collector.
I am well aware that the writers of a show about fairy tales could care less about the fine details of a contract as it relates to the law in the real world. But I just wanted to point out that what Hades did makes logical sense.
The idea that Hades more or less bought the contract was a little foreshadowed since he was reading Faust when Rumple walked in. Faust, who is a scholar, calls on the devil to further his knowledge and trades his soul for a set number of years using Mephistopheles as his servant in magic.
Now that Rumple’s baby has been conceived, it’s unlikely that Hades will be content to wait 9 months for the baby to arrive. And since we know that they wrote in Emilie De Ravin’s pregnancy in, that means that at some point, it will be sped up, so that the Hades arc will be done by the end of the season. So I believe that Hades will offer Zelena the chance to travel back to Storybrooke, if she does something for him. Disguised as Granny, feed Belle the magic onion rings that sped up her own pregnancy and deliver Belle and the baby down to the underworld where Hades can hold them hostage.
— Meredith Pechta
Will they speed up not only Belle’s pregnancy, but the age of the child as well? Will it be born with magic? It would be, after all, conceived with the combined powers of all the Dark Ones. If it turned out that season 6 is the last season, will it be about finding Rumple’s child again only this time, he wouldn’t have to do it alone? What did you think about Devil’s Due? Will Hades offer Zelena a chance to go back to Storybrooke to speed up Belle’s pregnancy? Anything else that we missed? Share them all using the comment section below or simply head over the forums and read or share spoilers and non-spoiler theories that you have![ndlmx_special]
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- In 5×15 “The Brothers Jones”, Hook and Emma must find a way to defeat Hades so that they can return to Storybrooke
- Hook’s departed brother Liam just might provide the lead they were looking for
- Meanwhile, Henry secretly takes matters into his own hands while the others search for the book.
- Hades, on the other hand, redoubles his efforts to trap the heroes in the Underworld by playing them against one another.
- In flashbacks, the bond between the two young Jones brothers is tested and strengthened on a merchant ship heading into a dangerous storm
- 5×15 “The Brothers Jones” was written by Jerome Schwartz and David H. Goodman, and directed by Eagle Egilsson.
- Guest stars include Bernard Curry as Liam Jones, Victoria Smurfit as Cruella De Vil, Timothy Webber as the Apprentice, Costas Mandylor as Captain Silver and Greg Germann as Hades.
- Promo for 5×15 showed Hook talking about the day the mutiny begins, but whether it happens in the past or the present is unclear.
- We also see Liam in the Underworld welcoming Hook. Will Hook tell him about little Liam II?
- Liam doesn’t think Emma is good enough for Hook
- Promo also talks about how Hook and Emma could be ripped apart
- Hook also talks to Emma why she wants him to move on after she just rescued him
- First Sneak Peek showed Snow White and David looking for a key while James is in patrol.
- Sneak Peek also includes Cruella coming in calling for James, with David pretending to be James, walking in with two champagne glasses and a bottle of wine.
- Sneak Peek also shows Cruella kissing David and her asking what does he want to try first: the champagne or her
- Behind the scenes photos showed some of Cruella with Henry, as well as Henry with the Apprentice in the woods, probably to talk about the broken quill and what Cruella implied in the past episodes.
- There were also photos of Hook and Emma in Emma’s house with all her baby stuff. Liam then joins them in her kitchen table
- There was also a single shot of Hades talking to Liam in a bar
- Adam Horowitz recently shared a Script Tease between Emma and Hook sitting by the nursery in her house, with Emma cleaning him up
- The cast are still filming bits and pieces of episodes 5×21, 5×22 and 5×23
- Last week, we did mention Rumple, Henry and Violet found their way to NYC, but it seems that Regina and Emma are also there. Perhaps they went to New York to find Henry?
- New photos also surfaced of Roland and Little John saying goodbye to Snow and David walking through the door we talked about from last week
- It looks like Little John is taking Roland away without Robin Hood
- Emma and Hook filmed in Storybrooke holding hands and it looks like they are back together
- Edward Kitsis and Adam Horowitz spoke with Entertainment Weekly and revealed what Belle’s pregnancy means for Rumplestiltskin, saying that “it’s going to affect both of them”