[fairy dust]

@sacrlc wrote:

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There are a lot of details in this thread, “Bae IN New York?!”, percolating in my brain, plus some research I followed up on, that is leading me to a few theories. There are too many references in this thread that influenced my theories to include them here, so I want to give credit to everyone who has posted in this thread for all their work.

Albums in the MM’s (aka Neal Cassady) room and a movie seem to somehow encapsulate Emma and Henry’s father’s perceived relationship.

Both albums ” The Day Everything Became Isolated and Destroyed” , and “Good bye my Coney Island baby” carry a theme of loneliness and love.

There is also a movie named “Coney Island Baby” which was filmed in Sligo, Ireland which is known locally as “Coney Island”. Synopsis:

After spending time in New York, Billy Hayes returns to his hometown.
He wants to get back together with his ex-girlfriend and take her back to America in hopes of opening up a gas station.
But everything isn’t going Billy’s way – the townspeople aren’t happy to see him, and his ex-girlfriend is engaged and pregnant.
Then, Billy runs into his old friends who are planning a scam.

Here is an explanation from Wikipedia how “Coney Island” got it’s name:

Following European settlement, New York State were originally and New York City a Dutch colony and settlement, named Nieuw Nederland and Nieuw Amsterdam. The Dutch name for the island-originally Conyne Eylandt, or Konijneneiland in modern Dutch spelling perhaps named after the Conyne (Conine) family who lived in the area at the time-probably precedes the similar English name, Coney Island, with both translating as “Rabbit Island”. As on other Long Island barrier islands, Coney Island had many and diverse rabbits, and rabbit hunting prospered until resort development eliminated their habitat. The Dutch name is found on the New Netherland map of 1639 by Johannes Vingboon, which is before any known English records.
Coney Island therefore appears to be the English adaptation of the Dutch name. The word “coney” was popular in English at the time as an alternative for rabbit; while coney survives in archaic and dialectal contexts, a later adaptation, “bunny”, is now in common use. Coney came into the English language through the Old French word conil, which itself derived from the Latin word for rabbit, cuniculus.

The sign “Cleaners & Hatters” implies a link to Jefferson (the mad hatter).
The monocles and clocks also are a hint to the white rabbit.

The boys who talked August into leaving the foster home with them are probably the “lost boys”. Somewhere along the way, Bae probably also became one. Jefferson may have hooked up with them somehow, establishing a relationship with both August and Bae. This also may explain how August knew about Bae’s father, Rumple/Mr. Gold.

The fact that Bae went thru a portal from FTL, I don’t think he is the white rabbit per se, but instead, an allegory of the white rabbit from Alice in Wonderland. Further evidence that Jefferson and Neal have a close relationship.

There is much more that I could add to this theory, but I’m a bit tired right now. zzzzz

So, in a recap, I believe Neal Cassady is Bae and is also Henry’s father.

I also believe since Jefferson knew Bae/Neal, he is the one who sent the postcard.
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Great post sacric 😀

[fairy dust]

I wish I had time to go into the three songs that Gypsy mentioned and tie them in with the Mystery Man/Neal Cassady…believed to be Baelfire. I’m going out of town for a week and will be out of range for my computer…yes…I’m going to the far corner where the signal doesn’t reach.

I wanted to mention that I still like to refer to Neal Cassady as the Mystery Man as his name is an assumed name and not a his own. He is a mystery..and I believe that in many ways, even when we find out who he is that he will remain a mystery until we hear, see, experience his whole story.

If the Mystery Man isn’t Baelfire I will be surprised…everything points to Baelfire…especially the lyrics of the songs on John Guliak’s album 7 stories and 13 songs. I wish I had time to write all the lyrics down…but they point the lostness…and relocation. I think he relocated a lot and we are going to meet many “Baelfires”… This is going to be one FUN story to watch.

One more thought: When I think of the term baelfire….bonfire….I think of campfire. And when I think of campfire and stories, my mind can’t help but go to Ray Bradbury and his illustrated man. First came the rose tattoo on his palm…and then came the lion…the lions of the veldt. I’ll never forget when, as a young teen I first read The Veldt. When I finished I sat there…still…thinking…thinking…almost feeling the heat…and hearing the roar. Then…the last line… “A cup of tea?” asked Wendy in the silence.” I remember how I felt when I got to those words…haunting, uncomfortable…just like I felt when Snow told Red that Peter wasn’t the wolf. And that is amazing…and that is why I watch.

Just as the vagrant man, who, sitting by the fire tells the story of each of his 18 tattoos is the frame for Bradbury’s Illustrated Man…I feel that Baelfire will be the frame for Once Upon a Time. I’m gonna pull up a chair and warm my hands by that fire.

*link to The Veldt http://www.veddma.com/veddma/Veldt.htm

[fairy dust]

@fairy dust wrote:

@Gypsy wrote:

My bad, fairy dust, the one about the Grateful Dead song “Ramble on Rose” w/ all the lines from the song was in TheGoldenKeys Dr Whale/Frankenstein topic…..I thought it was in the PP topic TheGoldenKey posted….goes to show, that the song references both TheGoldenKey’s PP theory and TheGoldenKey and my Dr Frankenstein theory. And, any Grateful Dead questions you might have, just ask…been a true Dead Head for over 30 years. You should put TheGoldenKey’s PP theory on here, too, everything in one place….

I’ve done a regular search and an advanced search and I can’t find any theGoldenKeys posts that mention the Grateful Dead, Dead Heads or Ramble on Rose.

I think I will google the lyrics cuz that sounds like a good clue. 🙂

Ok….now I see….the Grateful Dead Ramble on a Rose was in the topic thread…not written by theGoldenKey. I’m looking forward to exploring the lyrics. I guess I’m getting tired 🙄

[fairy dust]

@Gypsy wrote:

My bad, fairy dust, the one about the Grateful Dead song “Ramble on Rose” w/ all the lines from the song was in TheGoldenKeys Dr Whale/Frankenstein topic…..I thought it was in the PP topic TheGoldenKey posted….goes to show, that the song references both TheGoldenKey’s PP theory and TheGoldenKey and my Dr Frankenstein theory. And, any Grateful Dead questions you might have, just ask…been a true Dead Head for over 30 years. You should put TheGoldenKey’s PP theory on here, too, everything in one place….

I’ve done a regular search and an advanced search and I can’t find any theGoldenKeys posts that mention the Grateful Dead, Dead Heads or Ramble on Rose.

I think I will google the lyrics cuz that sounds like a good clue. 🙂

[fairy dust]

He’s gotta be the Gingerbread man because he makes me so mad I want to BITE his head off. 😆

[fairy dust]

@Gypsy wrote:

Fairy dust, I have a list of all the Grateful Dead connections in The GoldenKey’s original Peter Pan Theory post – which in it’s self, stands alone :)…..very interesting. And, again, if it wasn’t for discussing GoldenKeys theory with her since like Febreuay, I may not have found all this stuff. I mean, yeah, any Dead Head knows who Neal Cassady is, so, I got that, but, tying it all together with Peter Pan, I have to thank TheGoldenKey for that 😉
@Gypsy wrote:

Here’s TheGoldenKeys theory post…lol fairy dust, you posted in it

https://oncepodcast.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1462#p18390

I’m sorry about the confusion Gypsy…I was wanting the link for theGoldenKey’s Peter Pan Theory with the Grateful Dead connections. I didn’t see any Grateful Dead connections in the post you linked to. https://oncepodcast.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1462#p18390

Since I am not a Dead Head I can use all the help I can get when it comes to the Grateful Dead. 😀

I went ahead and did a site search for Grateful Dead and Dead Head. I thought it would be good to have all the info in one place as I am sure there are others out there as clueless as me. I wanted to make a list but I just don’t have time. So here are the posts with Grateful Dead information. I tried to put them in order, oldest posts first, so it would make sense.

Re: Doctor Whale is Doctor Frankenstein PROOF
by Gypsy » October 13, 2012, 11:29 pm

Actually, K&H have ALWAYS said it was about ‘stories’…from the begining. Just to add to the 3 paragraphs (including the 2×02 promo) worth of connections me and TheGoldenKey have looked into over the last 6wks, concerning the Whale/Dr Frankenstein theory….Adam and Eddie are self proclaimed ‘Dead Heads’…..the entire reason they inserted Geronimo Jackson (fictional band) into LOST ( switch the G in Geronimo and the J in Jackson= JG= Jerry Garcia). Emma had a Geronimo Jackson sticker on her VDub…and there was a Geronimo Jackson CD in Henry’s backpack when Emma dumped it during S1 finale while talking to Dr Whale- I am a Dead Head…have been for over 30 yrs. So, I should’ve made this connection earlier…anyway, one of my fave Dead songs is Ramble on Rose…..lines from that song: Just like Mary Shelley, Just like Frankenstein, clank your chains and count your change and try to walk the line…..another part: Just like NY City, Just like Jericho, pace the halls and climb the walls, and get out when they blow. The title – Ramble on Rose= Briar Rose (Sleeping Beauty)…Frankenstein= well, a nod to the Frankenstein theory…NY City= clue to the NYC Guy in the beginning.

Gypsy

Re: The Dr. Whale is Frankenstein Full Theory.
by Gypsy » October 14, 2012, 3:02 pm
Posted this in Dr Whale/Proof thread, but I’m adding it to TheGoldenKey and my theory above:

I am a Dead Head, and Kitsis and Horowitz are self proclaimed ‘Dead Heads’….it’s the whole reason the created the ficticious band Geronimo Jackson for LOST (switch the G in Geronimo and J in Jackson= JG= Jerry Garcia – this is a confirmed fact from LOST’s original run). Anyway, Emma has a Geonimo Jackson sticker on her VDub and in the S1 final, when Emma dumps Henry’s backpack, there’s a Geronimo Jackson CD among the contents. Considering the Grateful Dead influence surrounding Geronimo Jackson……there is a GD song, “Ramble on Rose”. Lines from that song:
Just like Mary Shelly, Just like Frankenstein, clank your chains and count your change, and try to walk the line.
Juat like NY City, Just like Jericho, pace the halls and climb the walls, and get out when they blow.

The Mary Shelley/Frankenstein connection is obvious.
The NY City….New Stranger…???
There’s also a Jericho in NY, and there’s a Peter Pan Diner there…which goes along with the other connections I found = Peter Pan Pastries and Peter Pan Bus Line, also in NY.
Maybe the Geronimo Jackson clue was more than just a LOST nod. Why else show the GJ CD while Emma is talking to Dr Whale, during a critical moment, just before she grabs Henry’s book and ‘believes’…….???

Others mentioned in the same song:
Mojo Hand-symbol resembles the red hand poster (Aesthetic Apparatus- Control and Capital) in NY City Guy’s apartment.

Billy Sunday- Character played by Deniro in the 2000 movie “Men of honor”
Deniro also played Frankenstein in a 1994 remake.

Crazy Otto- first name of Dr Frankenstein in a 1972 Italian version of Frankenstein ( Italian version- Little Italy connection). Also the name of a famous diner in NY- which goes with the Peter Pan Pastries and the Peter Pan Bus Line- also in NY. Name of a record label promoting ragtime music from the 20’s/30’s- old microphones in NY City Guy’s appt.

Wolfman Jack- From Brooklyn ( NY connection). Was a famous DJ (radio/ vintage microphones in NY City Guy’s appt)

Gypsy
Posts: 109
Joined: September 13, 2012, 9:27 pm

Re: Neal Cassady?
by Gypsy » October 15, 2012, 9:01 pm

Neal Cassady also made a documentary “Magic Trip” w/ The Grateful Dead and the Dead song “Cassidy” is a memorial to him…yes it’s spelled different for a reason…anyway…this is another connection to The Dead(and ultimately Geronimo Jackson) that I was talking about in the ‘Dr Whale…Proof’ thread…I put this one here, as it is a spoiler, but, there are many Dead connections.

Gypsy

Re: I believe Bae is Peter Pan & Henry’s father.
by fairy dust » Yesterday, 7:32 pm

TheGoldenKey wrote: Good stuff Fairy Dust Yes, I thought about the bird as well as The Little White Bird was J.M. Barrie’s first book about Peter. Would love to hear about Neal & the Beats in reference to Peter Pan and the Lost Boys. I did immediately see the connection between Neal’s search for his “lost” father vs Rumple’s search for his “lost” son. I feel Bae isn’t searching, rather, he is running and does not want to be found by Rumple. Thus the postcard, warning him of the curse being broken and Rumple on the move.Not sure what you meant though about double checking, but hey, if I said something that helped, happy to have obliged

Here are some of the references I found: I’m pretty darn sure now that our Mystery Man/Neal Cassady IS Peter Pan

Back to the Miracle Factory: Rock Etc. 1990’s By Paul Williams
Layers of irony interweave the layers of music, and you are free to hear whatever you need to. For example, is there something in the way she says his voice that suggests that she – the narrator – is still a food for this Peter Pan/Neal Cassady rip-off artist?

The American Book of the Dead by Oliver Trager
The second verse, which materializes out of the plastic elastic instrumental, references both the Merry Pranksters’ magic bus and its hipster-shaman driver, “Cowboy NEAL” Cassady, who permanently takes the singer away through the looking glass. It is with these Peter Pan-like allusions that the son’g timeless mood is forever set.

The Complete Annotated Grateful Dead Lyrics annotations by David Dodd
Skippin through the lily fields I came across an empty space,
It trembled and exploded, left a bus stop in it’s place.
The bus came by and I got on, that’s when it all began,
There was cowboy Neal at the wheel of the bus to never ever land.

(The notes below, 7 and 8 are actual quotes from the book)
7 Neal – “ A reference to Neal Cassady………”
8 A more-or-less direct reference to Never-Never-Land from Sir James Matthew Barrie’s 1901 play, Peter Pan, or the Boy Who Wouldn’t Grow Up. Peter Pan, who says he ran away on the day he was born, and who never ages, takes visitors to Never-Never-Land (also called Neverland).

Promised Land: Thirteen Books that Changed America by Jay Parini
Exactaly what he thinks of Dean (Neal Cassady) we shall never know. But the fun has gone out of the game for him. The road no longer beckons with quite the same urgency. Perhaps Peter Pan has to grow up now?

Kansas City Public Library Classic Review: On the Road by Jack Kerouac – Book Reviews
Kerouac began work on the book in 1951; the novel tells the story of three years (1947-1950) in the life of Sal Paradise, the story’s narrator, and his sometimes stormy, but always interesting, relationship with Dean Moriarty(Neal Cassady), a rambling free spirit – something of a beat Peter Pan.

The novel is semi-autobiographical. Sal is a thinly veiled rendition of Kerouac himself, while Dean is based, a little more loosely, on Neal Cassady…. If Dean is somewhat like Peter Pan, then Sal is perhaps more like Wendy, enjoying the journey, but very much aware that the journey must end, and that each of us has some responsibilities to which we must tend.

Review of On the Road –
And Dean Moriarty (Neal Cassady) is an amazing character – spontaneous, charming, absolutely unhinged and absolutely resistant to responsibility, maturity and probably also good sense. Peter Pan for the age of drugs and casual sex.

From Movie review: Scene a lot of Films – On the Road
Garrett Hedlund’s performance as Dean provides the bedrock; his exuberance engages the audience just as Dean’s affects his fellow travellers. They are fascinated by his Peter Pan-like nature; however, the boy who will not grow up ultimately burns out instead.

From blogs –
Generation Y-er’s are considered a transient generation. Not subject to inscription, homeland wars, famine, or any great depression bar the financial meltdown of 2008, Generation Y has generally been regarded as freer and less responsible than generations before. Perhaps a path paved by the parents who came of age in the ’60s in the wake of Sal Paradise and Dean Moriarty, this generation has been raised by the ideology of freedom from responsibility. This position is inherently derogatory and it refrains from considering the social context of this Peter Pan-labeled generation, and the pressures placed upon it by an aging society.

It may be stupid, but Dean is sort of like a grown up, drugged out Peter Pan who just doesn’t want to act like he has grown up.
Last edited by fairy dust on October 19, 2012, 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fairy dust
Posts: 49
Joined: September 20, 2012, 10:27 pm

Re: I believe Bae is Peter Pan & Henry’s father.
by Gypsy » Yesterday, 8:03 pm

Those are some good finds, fairy dust The Grateful Dead song you referrenced is “That’s it for the Other One” or, more commonly referred to by us Dead Heads, “The Other One”. It’s about the documentary Neal made w/The Dead – “Magic Trip”… Neal drove the “Further” bus. There’s also another song, “Cassidy” (yes, it’s spelled different) that The dead wrote in honor of Neal’s memory after his death.
The significance of The Dead is evident in the “Geronimo Jackson” sticker on Emma’s car…and in the finale when Emma dumps Henry’s backpack, a GJ CD falls out, right before Emma grabs Henry’s book and ‘believes’. K&H created Geronimo Jackson for LOST simply because they are also Dead Heads and thought it would be fun to make up a band mimicking The Grateful Dead.

Gypsy

Re: The Mysterious Man….
by Gypsy » Today, 12:46 am

Oh, I know! I agree. TheGoldenKey is a friend of mine and we’ve discussed this at length for months. Her theory is a really good foundation for all this new info (his name – Neal Cassady) and it all really fits together perfectly There’s actually a third Grateful Dead song that connects alot of the clues in NY City guys apartment…same song also points to the Dr Whale/Dr Frankenstein theory. Almost every line in the song relates to these 2 theories…right down to the Storybrooke city limits that can’t be crossed. Can’t wait for the next coupla eps

Gypsy

Re: Will Baelfire end up being multiple storybook characters
by Gypsy » Today, 4:55 pm

You really did some homework, fairy dust! Firesign Theatre was known as “The Grateful Dead of Comedy”…..so, that links up w/ all the Neal Cassady/Grateful Dead connections……the 3 songs: Ramble on Rose, Cassidy,The Other One – which is about the documentary “Magic Trip” where Neal drives the ‘Further’ bus and gets the nickname ‘Cowboy’. Which in turn connects the Peter Pan Bus Line, based in NY. And, all in all, connects to LOST’s fictious band (based on The Dead) Geronimo Jackson…sticker on Emma’s car….CD in Henry’s backpack in the finale……I love how K&H’s minds work!

Gypsy

[fairy dust]

Gypsy…your tip about the Peter Pan bus line reminded me that I had not gone back to the map since finding the connections between Neal Cassady and Peter Pan. I think I know why our Mystery Man/Neal Cassady ended up on 47th street. Maybe part of his out the way jaunt to 47th street had to do with a certain production that is currently at the Brooks Atkinson Theater….Peter and the Starcatcher.

….great find Tiara Rose

….and I totally agree Midnight Dreary

….and Gypsy…thanks for the Golden Key info. Can you post the link for me to her post. I’d like to read it.

My quest started backwards

From Mystery Man to Baelfire to The Radio Foundation to Neal Cassady to Peter Pan.

[fairy dust]

Thanks Gypsy! I just got on google maps and then street view to try to figure out where he exited Central Park (7th St) and then tried to figure out where he was on 47th St (47th and Madison). Then I went up to the west side of Central Park and just zoomed in on google map view and and scanned for interesting businesses…and The Radio Foundation caught my eye. With all the radios in his apartment I thought it might tie in.

I’m at somewhat of a disadvantage when it comes to seeing some of the obvious clues as I’m not a Dead Head and I didn’t watch Lost…so I just try to pay attention to as much as I can and see if I can fit it together.

Once the Radio foundation caught my eye I just started researching. Thanks so much for the info on the three songs and the Peter Pan Bus Line! And I agree with you about their minds…pretty amazing.

[fairy dust]

First all I’m loving the Mother “Blueperior”..that is clever. Your clues are very well thought out. 😀

In a little more than a week we will know for sure. (seriously wish I had a dancing bananna emoticon about now)

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[fairy dust]

@Midnight Dreary wrote:

I apologize if this has already been brought up, I haven’t read through the thread yet. I’m lazy. Sorry. 😆

But there was an unconfirmed OUAT Facebook spoiler released a few weeks ago that said that the show would explore Baelfire and Morraine’s relationship further. When I read that, I immediately started to think that Bae and Morraine were Peter Pan and Wendy. Why would the show want to explore Morraine’s relationship with Baelfire? They were only kids, so there probably isn’t much story to tell. But maybe after Bae was sent to another land, he used the magic bean to return to the Enchanted Forest and retrieve Morraine. Kind of like how Peter Pan jumped realms and took Wendy and her brothers to Neverland. Bae was probably lonely. 😥

Thanks for that info Midnight Dreary!

Perhaps we will get our Peter Pan/Wendy story before Baelfire is pulled into the green portal.

The resemblance between Morraine and Wendy (Rachel from 2003 movie) is uncanny. I don’t think that is accidental.

[attachment=0:1kpx5jlt]morraine and Wendy.jpg[/attachment:1kpx5jlt]

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