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*shaking my fist at Mr Mitovich* 😛

I’d been thinking of tweeting Adam that question if I happened to catch him online. Would probably get a #nospoilers reply, I suppose. Would just be good to have an idea of how much longer it will be before we get the question of WHO answered.

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What is this about Hook being selfish? Like I’m confused.

Not looking to turn this thread into a debate. I’m merely using Hook’s own dialogue when I form the opinion that he was being selfish, (which is totally in character for a pirate).

Charming: Why risk your life for me when there wasn’t anything for you in return?
Hook: Oh, I didn’t do it for you, mate. 😉

Hook: Perhaps gratitude is in order now?
Emma: Yeah, that’s what the thank you was for.
Hook: Is that all your father’s life is worth to you?

Judging by words Hook himself said, he was after personal gain for saving Charming’s life, which is why I said there was a selfish element to his motivation for saving him. True heroes don’t save people’s lives anticipating a reward for it. Soldiers don’t go to war so they can earn the medals, they risk their lives just because it’s what must be done in order to help, and that’s the definition of a true selfless hero IMO.

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I can totally imagine Hook going out in a “It is a far, far better thing I do…” (A Tale of Two Cities) kind of way. Big, romantic gestures are part of his character. Maybe they’ll even do that Dickens tale, only set in revolution-torn Oz instead of Paris.

Have seen that Sydney Carton potential parallel mentioned by a couple of other people too, so because I’m uncultured and have never read A Tale of Two Cities, I read up on it a bit on wikipedia. Could be interesting if they tweak it to fit in with the Oz story line somehow. Maybe the Munchkins = the French peasantry?

The novel depicts the plight of the French peasantry demoralised by the French aristocracy in the years leading up to the revolution, the corresponding brutality demonstrated by the revolutionaries toward the former aristocrats in the early years of the revolution, and many unflattering social parallels with life in London during the same time period. It follows the lives of several protagonists through these events. The most notable are Charles Darnay and Sydney Carton. Darnay is a former French aristocrat who falls victim to the indiscriminate wrath of the revolution despite his virtuous nature, and Carton is a dissipated English barrister who endeavours to redeem his ill-spent life out of his unrequited love for Darnay’s wife.

Here’s how Carton’s death comes about…

That same morning, Carton visits Darnay in prison. Carton drugs Darnay, and Barsad (whom Carton is blackmailing) has Darnay carried out of the prison. Carton has decided to pretend to be Darnay and to be executed in his place. He does this out of love for Lucie. Following Carton’s earlier instructions, Darnay’s family and Lorry flee Paris and France. In their coach is an unconscious Darnay, who carries Carton’s identification papers.

The novel concludes with the guillotining of Sydney Carton. As he is waiting to board the tumbril, he is approached by a seamstress, also condemned to death, who mistakes him for Darnay but, upon getting close, realises the truth. Awed by his unselfish courage and sacrifice, she asks to stay close to him and he agrees. Upon their arrival at the guillotine, Carton comforts her, telling her that their ends will be quick but that there is no Time or Trouble “in the better land where … [they] will be mercifully sheltered”, and she is able to meet her death in peace. Carton’s unspoken last thoughts are prophetic:

I see Barsad, … Defarge, The Vengeance [a lieutenant of Madame Defarge], … long ranks of the new oppressors who have risen on the destruction of the old, perishing by this retributive instrument, before it shall cease out of its present use. I see a beautiful city and a brilliant people rising from this abyss, and, in their struggles to be truly free, in their triumphs and defeats, through long years to come, I see the evil of this time and of the previous time of which this is the natural birth, gradually making expiation for itself and wearing out.

I see the lives for which I lay down my life, peaceful, useful, prosperous and happy, in that England which I shall see no more. I see Her with a child upon her bosom, who bears my name. I see her father, aged and bent, but otherwise restored, and faithful to all men in his healing office, and at peace. I see the good old man [Mr. Lorry], so long their friend, in ten years’ time enriching them with all he has, and passing tranquilly to his reward.

I see that I hold a sanctuary in their hearts, and in the hearts of their descendants, generations hence. I see her, an old woman, weeping for me on the anniversary of this day. I see her and her husband, their course done, lying side by side in their last earthly bed, and I know that each was not more honoured and held sacred in the other’s soul, than I was in the souls of both.

I see that child who lay upon her bosom and who bore my name, a man winning his way up in that path of life which once was mine. I see him winning it so well, that my name is made illustrious there by the light of his. I see the blots I threw upon it, faded away. I see him, fore-most of just judges and honoured men, bringing a boy of my name, with a forehead that I know and golden hair, to this place—then fair to look upon, with not a trace of this day’s disfigurement—and I hear him tell the child my story, with a tender and a faltering voice.

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known.

Lucie and Darnay have a first son earlier in the book who is born and dies within a single paragraph; it seems likely that this first son appears in the novel so that their later son, named after Carton, can represent another way in which Carton restores Lucie and Darnay through his sacrifice.

Bolded part sounds like fitting last words for a man who has been striving to regain his “good form” after a couple of centuries wallowing in bad form IMO. A true act of “unselfish courage and sacrifice” would be great to see from Hook. When he saved Charming’s life, he did it to gain favour with Emma, so there was a selfish element to it. Giving up his life to save another’s would be a truly UNselfish heroic act, to contrast with his saving of Charming. Believe that a pirate can be a hero, indeed.

If they went this direction, I could see them keeping with the final thoughts that Dickens gave to Carton, by having Emma and Neal have a (second) son that they name Killian.

Also I saw on the page about how now Graham is about to star in a major motion picture. There’s a reason that many celebrities turned down the role he was given.

He’s gonna star in pretty much a porno with S and M aka 50 Shades of Grey, not really the best movie to start a serious career in Hollywood IMO.

The movie will no doubt be incredibly cheesy and panned by critics, but it’s not like Jamie Dornan’s a stranger to getting his gear off in front of a camera, so I doubt he’s particularly worried about it tarnishing his career. Since leaving OUAT, he’s also starred in a very successful crime drama back in Ireland.

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Henry dying would affect the most people in the most profound way. Would it be TOO sad though? He always wanted to be a hero, and then in NL when he thought he was being a hero, he actually kinda screwed up, so would they kill him off before giving him an actual hero storyline? Guess they could give him one in S3B before killing him, but I dunno. I don’t think he can be ruled out, but he’s still not my first pick.

Speaking of attempted heroic acts in NL, Hook was trying to act the hero part by saving the life of a man who Emma loves, but he did it for his own personal gain, so it wasn’t a true heroic act. So might they have him saving the life of another man who Emma loves, this time doing it truly not for any personal gain, because he’d give his own life in the process? Could be a nice little climax to his story arc where he’s striving to regain his good form.

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Luna, I completely agree with you, they’ve already been there, done that with the rest reacting to Neal’s (apparent) death, and it would be completely redundant to go through all of that again, and the emotional punch of his loss would be lacking because we’ve seen everyone reacting to it before, so I really can’t see them doing that.

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It’s gotta be the old Gale farm. Gotta be!

Would it have killed that other guy in the background to turn around and face the camera so we could see who it is? 😛

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If they were to write it in a way that Hook has a realisation that Emma doesn’t love him in return, and he makes peace with that, and then dies in a sacrificial way, that would be fine. I just wouldn’t want them to have him still clinging to hope of being with her, and then die in some tragic/accidental way just to get rid of him. That kind of ending for the character wouldn’t be fair on either ship. It would make it feel like they just swept him aside to make way for Neal, and the fandom debate would rage on forever about if Emma could have actually ended up with him or not.

If he dies in a sacrificial way, I’d prefer it to be as a means of saving Neal’s life, rather than saving Emma’s. It’d be some consolation for us not having had the deep and meaningful CaptainFire stuff we were hoping for. We’ve seen Hook hand Bae over to a “demon” in 222, so perhaps in 322 they can show him saving Neal’s life (maybe from WW, another green villain, just like Pan was) by giving his own life. The season finales would mirror each other nicely if they did that.

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I think Rumple will get his happy ending, precisely bedause he was willing to sacrifice himself to save Belle and and Baelfire. He told his son he wanted to give him a second chance to be happy (though Rumple believes just not with him). Rumple did the brave thing, overcame his cowardice, and willingly sacrificed himself in a hero’s end. He is no longer a villain. If either of them were to die now, then Rumple’s ‘undoing’ would be for naught.

His whole character journey would be for naught. His entire struggle to overcome his weaknesses and redeem himself, thinking he’s giving the ultimate sacrifice of his life, then having him blessed with surviving after all…I can’t see them building a character like that, having him come good and get a real second shot at life, and then not giving him his happy ending. They always say this show is about hope, and Rumple not eventually getting his happy ending would be the ultimate downer. All of the crap Rumple orchestrated, for the sake of finding his son, then he gave up his life for that son, if Neal then went and died, then it was all for nothing in the end. Again, that’s about as anti-hope as you can get. Having Belle’s belief in Rumple end with her dying and not getting to be with him, again, totally anti-hope. I really think the Floof Fam are gonna get their happy ending when all is said and done, because Rumple’s desperate search for family is what the show is based on, (if he didn’t need to find his son – a situation that had its roots in Rumple’s relationship with his own father – then we’d have no Curse and no show).

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I honestly don’t feel like Neal’s gotten the shaft as much as people talk about. Yes there’s much more to tell with him, but I really don’t feel like he’s been ignored by the writers. I think they’re writing the character with a deliberate slow burn, (which I think MRJ is aware of, which is why he plays him in a more reserved manner a lot of the time, because the character and the story aren’t supposed to be big, in your face, go go go, loud and fast paced), because he’s gonna be around until show’s end, so they don’t want to resolve everything with him immediately.

As for promo, yeah they have promoted the wazoo out of Hook and CS, and Colin is undoubtedly a big draw for many viewers. But has that excessive promo seen ratings sky rocket? Nope. Ratings haven’t had a massive decline, they’re holding relatively steady, but all that Hook/CS promo hasn’t exactly drawn in more viewers. If people are staying away because they’re not super fussed about Hook, the ep of his death could likely see a ratings spike, and while they might lose some viewers after the fact, they might well win some others back.

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I just think it’s a little funny that we have been obsessing over getting spoilers and now that we have one we want to have never heard it.

If there’s one fan who would be happy about this news, it’d be Rebecca who hosts the Operation Cobra podcast. One of her big pet peeves with the show is death foreshadowing without any payoff. Sounds like she’s finally gonna get some satisfaction.

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