Search Results for 'emma'

[PriceofMagic]

Hook crossed that line when he beat Belle and sexually harassed every woman on the show. If you supposedly “plan” for the villain to be the main love interest of your main heroine, it’s best that his initial behavior won’t be despicable.

You are completely right. Belle hadn’t even done anything to him and he still went after her to get back at Rumple. Belle was an innocent and Hook still treated her like crap despite his code of “honour”.

RumplesGirl wrote:

My own moral event horizon for Hook is when he pinned Emma to the ground, held a sword to her throat, and told her that when he jabbed her with his “sword,” she’d feel it. That was it for me.

Yeah if that offends you, I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye on this topic. That was his character. There are people like that. Not everyone is sunshine and rainbows. He was a villain then. And at that point, he never tried to force himself on her. They were fighting and he said a stupid line. I took it more as if I ever got the chance to sleep with you, she would feel it. Like come on baby, you’d like it type thing. It didn’t feel like it was, I’m going to force myself upon you, take your clothes off, and you will feel it and like it. Honestly if you were jumping to that way back then, it’s no wonder you don’t care for this character.

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That is still sexual intimidation. Whilst Hook and Emma may be in a relationship now, and Emma is considered a “strong” woman, it is still not okay. What if he’d said that line to someone like Belle, or Marian, or Anna? Imagine Belle caught on her back, Hook looming over her say the “When” he “jabs her with his sword, she’ll feel it”. Whether Hook was a villain or not does not make it okay. In fact, the point of having your villains say stuff like that is to make them as unlikeable as possible. Someone actually made some manips of Dustin Hoffman’s Hook saying some of the lines that Once’s Hook has said. There is no way you’d be so okay with lines like that had it been DH’s Hook saying them.

RumplesGirl wrote:

Regina is never brought to bear for her crimes against Graham.

And I’ll just leave it at this, although Regina never received punishment or had to fully admit that what she did to Graham was awful, I think as fans we understood what she was doing was wrong. I don’t think they condoned it in any way.

IMO this was something that the show should’ve dealt with and actually would’ve been quite groundbreaking in a way. We’re so used to rape being depicted as male on female in the media to the point that it’s almost become the stereotypical depiction of rape. However, female on male rape does happen and is actually a growing problem in real life. So to have Regina do that to Graham and yet suffer absolutely no consequences is disconcerting. Regina is a fan favourite so obviously they don’t want her to be labelled a rapist but they needed to handle that situation better than they did. To just close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears and pretend it didn’t happen is not good.

RumplesGirl wrote:

And the fact that there are people like that doesn’t make it okay. Ever. If a man walked up to you, held you by your wrist, refused to let you go and said “come on baby, you’d like it” how would you react? Would you think, “oh it’s okay. It’s just his character/personality.”

Of course that’s awful. But he was an awful person. I’m not defending his comment. Let me be clear. But he was being portrayed as a villain. So why should I have an issue with that line if we as viewers are supposed to view him as a bad guy. Now, they have tried to redeem, and he has said he is sorry and what not, etc. etc. But at the time, a line like that was from a villain who was trying to get in her pants with rude pirate talk, which is why I didn’t have an issue with it.

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You kind of are defending his comment because you are making an excuse for him. “he was being portrayed as a villain” is an excuse. That’s like saying Rumple was well within his rights to rip out Milah’s heart and crush it because “he was being portrayed as a villain”. It was okay for Arthur to control Gwen, making her believe she loved him with magic dust because “he was being portrayed as a villain”, it was okay for Pan to emotionally manipulate Henry because “he was being portrayed as a villain” etc etc.

If you start excusing one characters actions because of reasons then you have to apply the same logic across the board.

[RumplesGirl]

Well hasn’t he apologized for his past actions and said he isn’t that man anymore? I looped everything he did back then under that category.

Nope not really, at least not without the caveat that he’s only good because of Emma–at any moment, should Emma leave him, he’ll go back to being bad! Never mind that being good isn’t supposed to be solely placed on the soul of another but because you should be good for the sake of goodness. That’s actually emotional manipulation.

But even if he has, there is an adage in TV called “show don’t tell.” Hook can say he’s not the man he was anymore and lament that he once did bad things, but the fact that he still does bad things, is still emotionally abusive, still does super problematic actions to people he claims to love….speaks more than any apology. When he tells Emma that he liked her walls because he got to be the one to knock them down (back to the Predator trope I stated a few pages back, so completely wrong given that *Henry* exists as does S1); when he tells her that he liked that she got her heart broken; when he says that he wants the Emma in the pretty dress back; when he stalks and spies on a woman he claims to love; when he prevents her from leaving a situation with an object that is used quite often as a weapon; when he wants to get her liquored up so that she’ll find him “more irresistible” after a few libations (Predator trope); when he we are led to believe that he let a man die to save his ship; when he wants a kiss as a thank you for saving a life; when his treatment of women consists of sexual harassment, beating them, manipulating them all while we are being told that he is a hero…then it’s an issue.

And as far as apologies, they tend to be of the non-sincere sort. How about his apology to Belle for beating her and shooting her. It was the most insincere apology on the show.

But at the time, when he said it, and he was a clear villain, I don’t understand how that can be offensive. That would be like being offended that Cruella manipulated dogs to eat her mother or whatever. Animal cruelty! But she was a horrible person. They do or say horrible things.

Of course they do. But you can find stuff villains do offensive. I’m offended when people murder, rape, maim, or otherwise injure another person. The fact that “horrible people do horrible” things isn’t justification. They don’t get a pass because “oh, villains.” Especially when it doesn’t get treated as a horrible thing by the writers…it gets treated as romantic.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Bar Farer]

RumplesGirl wrote:

No he hasn’t! Show me where Hook ever said he was sorry for that line, for what he did, for leaving Emma and Snow in jail to die. He was never made to apologize; it was just “he’s a hero now!” from the writers.

Well hasn’t he apologized for his past actions and said he isn’t that man anymore? I looped everything he did back then under that category. They can’t apologize for every line. I just felt like Hook had to convince her that he was turning over a new leaf and not just trying to get with her. And I thought he had done that. Whether it was believable or not is certainly up for debate. And even so, we can disagree on Hook’s redemption arc or what have you. I don’t think they’ve done the best job myself. But at the time, when he said it, and he was a clear villain, I don’t understand how that can be offensive. That would be like being offended that Cruella manipulated dogs to eat her mother or whatever. Animal cruelty! But she was a horrible person. They do or say horrible things.

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I don’t remember that he apologized about anything other than attacking Belle, which went like this:

Hook/Regina: I need your help with something.

Belle: why would I help you? You hurt me *angry sad*.

Hook/Regina: well then I guess I’m sorry?

Belle: Fine. What do you need me to do?

And the excuse about being a villain might be used on season 2/flashback, and the excuse about the darkness might be used in 5A, but you can’t excuse the fact he lied in 317 about helping Ariel (which again was forgotten and weren’t addressed), you can’t excuse the fact that instead of doing the right thing and tell Belle about the fake dagger, he decided to blackmail Rumple on her expense and the apprentice he put in the hat (yet again he wasn’t confronted, yet again he admitted but it ment nothing cause no one heard it and everyone blamed Rumple).

"All your questions are pointless"

[thedarkonedearie]

No he hasn’t! Show me where Hook ever said he was sorry for that line, for what he did, for leaving Emma and Snow in jail to die. He was never made to apologize; it was just “he’s a hero now!” from the writers.

Well hasn’t he apologized for his past actions and said he isn’t that man anymore?  I looped everything he did back then under that category.  They can’t apologize for every line.  I just felt like Hook had to convince her that he was turning over a new leaf and not just trying to get with her.  And I thought he had done that.  Whether it was believable or not is certainly up for debate.  And even so, we can disagree on Hook’s redemption arc or what have you.  I don’t think they’ve done the best job myself.  But at the time, when he said it, and he was a clear villain, I don’t understand how that can be offensive.  That would be like being offended that Cruella manipulated dogs to eat her mother or whatever.  Animal cruelty! But she was a horrible person.  They do or say horrible things.

[RumplesGirl]

Now, they have tried to redeem, and he has said he is sorry and what not, etc. etc

No he hasn’t! Show me where Hook ever said he was sorry for that line, for what he did, for leaving Emma and Snow in jail to die. He was never made to apologize; it was just “he’s a hero now!” from the writers.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[RumplesGirl]

I took it more as if I ever got the chance to sleep with you, she would feel it. Like come on baby, you’d like it type thing

They were not in a romantic relationship–they were enemies. That sort of line might be okay in bed play between consenting adults who are in a sexual relationship. Hook and Emma were not. And the idea that “come on baby, you’d like it” is EVER okay to say to someone with whom you’re not in a sexual relationship makes my skin crawl.

And the fact that there are people like that doesn’t make it okay. Ever. If a man walked up to you, held you by your wrist, refused to let you go and said “come on baby, you’d like it” how would you react? Would you think, “oh it’s okay. It’s just his character/personality.”

Rape culture, rape culture, rape culture. That’s rape culture. The idea that a woman has to passively take a man’s advances simply because they are women and he’s a man. Whether it’s us telling little girls on the playground that when a boy picks on them it’s because “he likes them” (again, learned social behaviors that continue to manifest well into adulthood) or it’s a man on TV hounding a woman for a date, for sex, for a kiss, for attention and the woman invariably giving in because “she finally fell for his charms” that’s rape culture.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Bar Farer]

The writers depiction of redemption is forget about the horrible things in the past and have everyone around you encourage you and tell you what a great person you are.

Regina was never confronted about Graham because it would would make her seem bad to the fans when she is a fan favorite and she needs to keep being that way cause ratings.

Hook was never confronted about the many horrible things he did in the past, S2,3B,4A,5A cause it would make gim seem bad to the fans when he is a fan favorite and he needs to keep being that way cause ratings.

Which is a shame cause bringing a character to a confrontation about the bad things they did creates great scenes and great drama (e.g. Emma and Neal bar scene in 214). Characters can have flaws, characters can do make mistakes, that’s what makes them interesting. But there is no point if they are not confronted about it, everything is forgotten and everyone is happy. Redemption is not just forget about the past and doing good things, it’s about atonement, making amends and earning forgiveness.

I can say that Hook scene with Emma on the Jolly Roger in 503 was great because he finaly admitted that he was wrong going after Rumple’s wife, breaking a family and being the villain. Unfortunately, that scene means nothing if he doesn’t act upon this conffesion, if he doesn’t make amends with Rumple. Instead they chose to go back to that stupid revenge that became irrelevant cause nobody cares about Milah anymore.

A better plot for Regina in season 4 would have been realizing, through Marian, that Snow wasn’t the only one who got hurt by her, that there were other people. Instead of blaming the author about everything she did and whine about not getting a happy ending, they should have shown her helping the people she hurt getting their happy endings instead.

The writers for some reason don’t affraid to show the characters doing horrible things, but affraid to confront them about it cause then they are directly telling the viewers that what this character is bad and they are affraid that the viewers would be put off by that.

"All your questions are pointless"

[thedarkonedearie]

My  own moral event horizon for Hook is when he pinned Emma to the ground, held a sword to her throat, and told her that when he jabbed her with his “sword,” she’d feel it. That was it for me.

Yeah if that offends you, I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye on this topic.  That was his character.  There are people like that.  Not everyone is sunshine and rainbows.  He was a villain then.  And at that point, he never tried to force himself on her.  They were fighting and he said a stupid line.  I took it more as if I ever got the chance to sleep with you, she would feel it.  Like come on baby, you’d like it type thing.  It didn’t feel like it was, I’m going to force myself upon you, take your clothes off, and you will feel it and like it.  Honestly if you were jumping to that way back then, it’s no wonder you don’t care for this character.

 

[RumplesGirl]

However I will say, and this is kind of a different topic here, I do not have any problem with television shows depicting these types of scenes if it is essential or important to the story. Unfortunately, rape happens in our culture.

I’ll just have to quote myself on this because I don’t want to re-type what I’ve said in the past.

Domestic abuse in narrative, in TV storytelling, can work. It really can. When the writers are consciously aware of what they are writing and making a commentary on the effects of abuse, the signs of abuse, and how to handle it, it works well enough on TV. The writers on OUAT are not self-aware that this is domestic and emotional abuse. They are romanticizing it. And it’s appalling.

I’m not a viewer who just wants to see happy-sunshine stories. The world is not happy sunshine. But the writers aren’t doing what they are doing with Hook and Emma for the sake of realism. They are doing it because they think it’s romantic.

And at this point, we’re going to start talking in circles because you don’t see a problem with it, and I’ll never see it as anything *but* a problem.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Bar Farer]

You would think though that A&E, hearing that some people find CS to be problematic which isn’t their intention, would actually take a closer look at the relationship to find out why people are interpreting it that way in order to amend it. Some of the things Hook says are awful. Is that intentional or just bad writing? Because saying how you would send a woman back to her husband as “soiled” is in no way defensible. There is no way that comment could be interpreted as anything but offensive. How can the writers be so blind? You want a character to be “evil” and try and break a character’s spirit, fine, but there is a line. It’s called a “moral event horizon”. Basically, if you want your villain to be redeemable, they absolutely must not cross that line. Once they do they’re past the point of no return. IMO Hook has crossed that line. Not only for how he went for real personal attacks on Emma but for the “soiled” comment about Milah. What doesn’t help Hook’s case is that we’ve seen a DO in love with someone through the RumBelle relationship. Rumple has done some underhanded things but he’s never gone for personal attacks on Belle, he’s never described the woman he loved as “soiled”. A character like Zelena could get away with saying those thing because she has no close connection with Emma. But for Hook so say those things is just plain wrong.

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Hook crossed that line when he beat Belle and sexually harassed every woman on the show. If you supposedly “plan” for the villain to be the main love interest of your main heroine, it’s best that his initial behavior won’t be despicable.

"All your questions are pointless"