Search Results for 'emma'

[RumplesGirl]

The moral event horizon for each viewer is likely different but mine (for Hook) is another indefensible comment that more often than not gets turned into a romantic line by his fans.

My  own moral event horizon for Hook is when he pinned Emma to the ground, held a sword to her throat, and told her that when he jabbed her with his “sword,” she’d feel it. That was it for me. The writers thought it was a clever little line and really pun-tastic, and CS fans ate it up and called it witty, charming, and super hot. The CS fans also excuse it as “well, Emma and Hook were on different sides, so it’s perfectly fine to talk to someone that way.”

Yeah, it’s not, in case anyone was wondering.

To me it was one of the most offensive things I have ever heard on this show.

But it perfectly illustrates (as does @PoM’s example) of what I’m trying to say: the writers don’t recognize the problems in their show and the relationships between the characters because they don’t know *why* it’s problematic. We’re getting into learned social behaviors here. It’s not just monkey see, monkey do. It’s monkey see, monkey never learn that what he has seen is repugnant to some other monkeys, monkey regurgitate things he’s seen in the past, babymonkey pick up and start all over.

[PriceofMagic]

You would think though that A&E, hearing that some people find CS to be problematic which isn’t their intention, would actually take a closer look at the relationship to find out why people are interpreting it that way in order to amend it.

Some of the things Hook says are awful. Is that intentional or just bad writing? Because saying how you would send a woman back to her husband as “soiled” is in no way defensible. There is no way that comment could be interpreted as anything but offensive. How can the writers be so blind?

You want a character to be “evil” and try and break a character’s spirit, fine, but there is a line. It’s called a “moral event horizon”. Basically, if you want your villain to be redeemable, they absolutely must not cross that line. Once they do they’re past the point of no return.

IMO Hook has crossed that line. Not only for how he went for real personal attacks on Emma but for the “soiled” comment about Milah. What doesn’t help Hook’s case is that we’ve seen a DO in love with someone through the RumBelle relationship. Rumple has done some underhanded things but he’s never gone for personal attacks on Belle, he’s never described the woman he loved as “soiled”.

A character like Zelena could get away with saying those thing because she has no close connection with Emma. But for Hook so say those things is just plain wrong.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[RumplesGirl]

If he was always abusive, but just controlled it better when he wasn’t the DO, then ok. But he was not like that with Emma pre DO.

Yes he was. There are too many instances of Hook being emotionally, mentally, and physically abusive to Emma for me to list–the onus is on someone else because I’ll likely get ALL CAPS as I type because Hook’s interactions with Emma over the years makes me *twitchy^

But there are many instances of him using that wheel I posted against Emma pre-DO-status.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[RumplesGirl]

Maybe, I just think that’s a little harsh

Hook and Emma are not the only example. They are the ones that get talked about most here, but there are plenty of others. How about Zelena and Robin? Regina and Graham? How about their treatment of rape in general? Of POC? Of the LGBT community? How about Emma and Regina’s main storylines getting reduced to their love stories? How about the latest episode with Rumple and Belle?

Like, Emma truly feels like it’s her fault that Hook did those things as the DO (he did tell her not to make him one), and she truly feels what he said and did as the DO was not his fault and that it was simply the darkness. We are not supposed to view it as emotionally abusive if he couldn’t control what he was saying/doing

Of course we’re not supposed to view it as emotionally abusive. That doesn’t mean it’s not. Just like the writers killing off, making evil, making white, or making irrelevant the various PoC characters they’ve had isnt intentional racism because A and E hate PoC. It’s unintentional and uniformed racism. Just like their treatment of CS falls into the rape culture traps—but, just so you don’t misunderstand me–it’s also the same traps that a lot of media falls into. The conversation being had by on social media sites and by concerned individuals and groups isn’t just OUAT related, it’s media related.

But as a fan, I’m trying to look at it the way the writers want us to look at it, otherwise the show won’t make sense.

And sure that’s one way to view media. But I personally don’t think it’s a  valid one. It’s fine to be a fan, but it’s another to be a fan and to try and rationalize some truly appalling decisions. For example, I am an avid Doctor Who fan. Have been for years and years–classic and NuWho. I do not approve of a lot of the most recent seasons. I have been pointing out the show runner’s (Steven Moffat) faults in story lines, misogyny, and disregard for canon, emotional resolution, ect for quite awhile. Same goes for me and Sleepy Hollow–a show I adore with all my heart, but have NO problems pointing out that they’ve got a bit of a white-woman fetish when it comes to “spicing” it up with their otherwise diverse cast who do no need any interjection from other characters.

But I still watch, love, and analyze both shows.

If I were to look at OUAT only the way the writers want me to, then I’m only getting one half of the conversation. It’s a one sided conversation because it means that my input and critique (or praise!) means nothing. We’re back to the reason why we still watch–because I think this show speaks to a lot of social problems in our world and I like to talk about those.

I guess it comes down to where you stand on the philosophical question of it the author is dead or not and what is text. For me, text is everything that is written about the show including this comment right here. A and E (and other writing staff) are not “gods” (in terms of the philosophical question, not an infallible sense) who have the final word on what is good, bad, and appropriate in their show. They might create the original text but everything that exists around it is text and equally valid.

What you depicted here is the “battered wife syndrom”. She did something that pissed off her boyfriend, and he becomes violent towards her or other people, instead of putting the blame on him, she blames herself for making him angry. This is a syndrom that is common in abusive relationship. (Speaking on Buffy, they did an episode about it -304)

I don’t know how many times we’ve posted this in various places but: the abuse wheel

I won’t bother making a list of all the times we’ve seen Hook use some of these on Emma. It wold be far too long. But, for what it’s worth, not all of those instances happen when he’s the DO.

I don’t think they even put any thought to it. I’m calling what I saw on screen, what other people saw and what younger people see as a relationship that the show depicts as ideal.

For me it’s far more than that they don’t even think about it. You can’t think about something you don’t realize is a problem. They have fallen into pretty typical depictions of men and women that exist in media. They are problematic depictions. Greatly problematic. But until they recognize that these depictions are problematic, then they won’t course correct. I don’t want to start talking about privilege because that’s a whole other issue but in media like TV it is often very hard for white heterosexual men to write compelling healthy relationships because they don’t understand that some of the things they’ve been shown and told are romantic…aren’t. But they sit in a place of privilege and don’t have to confront what it feels like to be stalked, abused, toyed with, made into objects.

Again, I point to Jessica Jones as something everyone should be watching. (broken record, I know)

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[thedarkonedearie]

What you depicted here is the “battered wife syndrom”. She did something that pissed off her boyfriend, and he becomes violent towards her or other people, instead of putting the blame on him, she blames herself for making him angry. This is a syndrom that is common in abusive relationship.

Yes, but in real life, people aren’t literally being controlled by a “dark force” that was transferred into their body through a magical sword from Camelot.  To compare it to real life abusive relationships doesn’t really seem fair.  The writers are trying to make us believe that he literally had no control over what he was doing.  If he literally can’t control it, it’s not fair to loop him into the category of “abusive boyfriends.”  If he was always abusive, but just controlled it better when he wasn’t the DO, then ok.  But he was not like that with Emma pre DO.  This felt like it came out of nowhere.  They want us to believe this darkness forced him to do these things.  I think there is a difference.  Not downplaying abusive relationships here, and I do see the parallel you are trying to make, it’s just this show is way too cray cray for me to think logically about it and attempt to compare it to actual real life relationships.

[Bar Farer]

Emma truly feels like it’s her fault that Hook did those things as the DO (he did tell her not to make him one), and she truly feels what he said and did as the DO was not his fault and that it was simply the darkness.

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What you depicted here is the “battered wife syndrom”. She did something that pissed off her boyfriend, and he becomes violent towards her or other people, instead of putting the blame on him, she blames herself for making him angry. This is a syndrom that is common in abusive relationship. (Speaking on Buffy, they did an episode about it -304)

I don’t care what they writers intended for it to be, I don’t think they even put any thought to it. I’m calling what I saw on screen, what other people saw and what younger people see as a relationship that the show depicts as ideal.

"All your questions are pointless"

[thedarkonedearie]

It’s bad writing, as you say later, but it’s not just that. It’s being totally disconnected from any sense of feminism, morality, or understanding of current discourse in our society viz a viz the intersection of media and society.

Maybe, I just think that’s a little harsh.  I think the writers just screwed this up.  They wanted us to really believe that Hook had no control over what he was doing.  And that we are just supposed to forget what he said and did as the DO, so now that he isn’t the dark one, we should want to save him.  This did not land.  And to me, that’s bad writing.  As far as the disconnection with feminism, morality, etc., I just don’t know.  Like, Emma truly feels like it’s her fault that Hook did those things as the DO (he did tell her not to make him one), and she truly feels what he said and did as the DO was not his fault and that it was simply the darkness.  We are not supposed to view it as emotionally abusive if he couldn’t control what he was saying/doing.  Which is why for me, I’m not like offended by it or anything.  It was just poor execution and writing because we all clearly do feel like it is abusive because we don’t feel like the darkness would just make someone say/do horrible things like that because it wasn’t this dark with Rumple.

It’s important to remember what the writers are trying to make us feel and what they actually are making us feeling. The relationship is not SUPPOSED to be abusive.  We are SUPPOSED to feel bad for Hook because he really wouldn’t want to say/do these things.  So when Emma finally “kills” him, and relieves him of his struggle (after seemingly overcoming it and saving everyone), we are SUPPOSED to want Emma to save him, not think why she is going after someone who abuses her.  But because of bad writing, it doesn’t stick.  But as a fan, I’m trying to look at it the way the writers want us to look at it, otherwise the show won’t make sense.  So if they want to tell me that the darkness really did make Hook say/do those things, and that he truly does care for her, I have to go along with it otherwise saving him and the back half of this season will make zero sense.

[thedarkonedearie]

The fact that he was the dark one only when he was told and there is no indication for it bothers me because it is just a cheap shock value twist, it is obvious that it wasn’t planned to be that way

No doubt man.  Honestly that was the biggest problem I had.  How on Earth does he not remember being the dark one?  I get that his memories were wiped, but since when do dreamcatchers have the ability to makes dark ones forget they are dark ones?  That was the biggest issue I had.

Rumple did not murder anyone to our knowledge (you can speculate but canonically within the story, he did not).

Didn’t he like kill some people in the woods in an episode where Bae realized that kids wouldn’t hang out with him because they feared his father so much?  Maybe I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure he killed people.  And I’m not gonna argue that what Hook did as the DO in like a day wasn’t way worse than what Rumple had ever done.  Because it was. But I think that shows the kind of person they both were before being the DO.  Rumple was not a bad man.  Hook was, and he has had to try and become good again (not gonna argue whether the writers have sold us on this plot point of Hook redemption or not because obviously there are some flaws).  But it would make sense to me, I think, for Hook to be worse, not necessarily because he is still a bad man, but because he once was, and the DO brings out the worst in you, and Hook was always way worse than Rumple pre DO.

I can never forgive Hook telling Emma that she’ll always be an orphan and Emma just standing there taking it, being his emotional punching bag. Rumple could be cold or manipulative but you never saw him talk to Belle that way when he was the DO, either in the EF or in SB.

This, I felt, the writers went too far.  Like even if the darkness was stronger in Hook because Hook used to be a terrible person, this was just too far.  I agree.  Like how can the writers have us believe that this love with Emma is true if he’s going to say things like that.  That’s deep rooted stuff that clearly he still harbors.  Once they had Hook get that personal, they should have killed him off.  Why do we want to save him now?  As you said, Rumple never would say that to Belle when he was the DO.  I think the writers wanted us to believe what I said above, that because he was a bad man before, it was easy for the darkness to manipulate that, but you can’t just have Hook say something like that, with no fight in him at all, and then have us feel like we should save him.  Honestly, it’s more bad writing than anything else.

[RumplesGirl]

The darkness obviously affected him. He went from being a coward, but otherwise a good father, to not only a coward, but a ruthless human being

The darkness did clearly affect Rumple, no denying that but look at the degrees. You called Rumple ruthless but I strongly disagree with that, especially in terms of Rumple vs Hook. After the initial taking on of the DO’s curse and the first few months, Rumple did not murder anyone to our knowledge (you can speculate but canonically within the story, he did not). Instead he chose to make deals. He chose to give people what they wanted (or thought they wanted) in return for other favors. Yes, he manipulated the HECK out of people and situations but always played into what those people claimed to have wanted and always gave them a choice.

He did not summon up a bunch of Former <del>Jawas</del> Dark Ones or open the <del>Hellmouth</del> portal to the Underworld. He did not mark anyone for death. He did not use the combined forces of the Dark Ones for any nefarious purpose. Hook, within about 10 mins of becoming the new DO plotted to betray his girlfriend, betray his girlfriend’s family, and committed cold blooded murder. Once he remembered he was the DO, his emotional attack on Emma was far worse than anything we ever saw from Rumple or Emma–at least subjectively, in my opinion. I can never forgive Hook telling Emma that she’ll always be an orphan and Emma just standing there taking it, being his emotional punching bag. Rumple could be cold or manipulative but you never saw him talk to Belle that way when he was the DO, either in the EF or in SB. In fact, in a lot of the instances of interaction between them, Belle had the power by standing her ground and standing up to Rumple, calling him on his nonsense. But the message OUAT wants us to take away is that only one of these characters is “good” and “worth saving” and that the CS ship is healthy and laudable.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Bar Farer]

RumplesGirl wrote:

The only way “The darkness made him do it” excuse works is if the show applies across the board. But they don’t. For Rumple, he is simply a bad man. It’s never “yes, he tortured Robin Hood, but the darkness made him do it because that’s how insidious it is.” It’s “Rumple is power obsessed and can’t give up his grip on the darkness.” But for Hook it’s “he didn’t mean to almost kill all of Emma’s family and send them to hell. The darkness made him do it.” It’s very much a double standard but with Hook, like you said, it gets washed away in order to sell the narrative that he’s a good guy.

Don’t forget that Hook didn’t want the darkness because he knew how it would affect him. Rumple keeps going back to it willingly. And I think it’s safe to say that Rumple changed a lot once he became the dark one. The darkness obviously affected him. He went from being a coward, but otherwise a good father, to not only a coward, but a ruthless human being. And obviously the darkness changed Nimue too. I think it’s decently documented how the darkness changes people. So I didn’t have as big of a problem with Hook’s fast dark turn at the end of season 5a as others did. It was rushed, yes, but I was OK with it. There were far bigger issues I had at the end there than that. That’s all I’ll say haha.

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I had a lot of problems with it.

1. Regina just saying “It will create another dark one” without the why and how is not a good enough explanation for me.

2. The fact that he was the dark one only when he was told and there is no indication for it bothers me because it is just a cheap shock value twist, it is obvious that it wasn’t planned to be that way, mainly because all the dropped plot points from the early episodes- Emma’s “You failed me”, Regina being the savior. That twist also show that the darkness didn’t affect him and it was his actions. If the darkness had affected him, it would have affected him from the beginning of the season and not when it is convenient. This twist was not planned and it has abc written all over it.

"All your questions are pointless"